Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Free Will?


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2894 posts

Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:08 PM

I have been told many times that there is no such thing as free will, and that any notion to the contrary is the product of self-deluding illusion.

 

The primary assumptions underlying this claim seem to emanate from the presumption of a mechanical materialistic reductionism that controls nature, where everything that happens has been preordained by fate.

 

The concept of cause and effect seems to prevail here.  Everything that happens is simply a necessary effect of an antecedent cause, ad infinitum (both forwards and backwards).

 

Every word a person says, every thought he thinks, every action he takes, every (illusory) decision he makes is the product of an antecedent cause over which he had no control.  And this chain of causation goes back to the beginning of time--call it the big bang, if you want.

 

The upshot is that we're all just automatons reading from a pre-written script that cannot be altered. We can't make real "choices" any more than a cannonball can "choose" not to leave the barrel of a cannon once it has been detonated.

 

These people will advance any number of arguments which are to designed to persuade you that their view is correct.

 

But I can't see why.  If they are correct, then they're just reciting things they have been forced by all-pervading causation to say.  They are not capable of logical reasoning.  They have no control over their thoughts.  Such a person has no free will to say anything other than "I (and you) have no free will."  That's the way they've been programmed.  They were predestined to say that eons ago.  Under those circumstances, how could their claims possibly be persuasive?

 

So I just tell them:  "Come back and tell me that when you're no longer a robotic machine and are able to control, and discriminate in, your own utterances, eh?"

 

All you've done is persuade me that, even assuming you're right, you have no reason for claiming you're right.  So quit bullshitting about having "reasons" for your claims.  I might as well listen to a parrot.

 

Is there some other explanation for the claim that people have no free will?  Something other than the irresistible force of cause and effect, I mean?


Edited by Moronium, 02 February 2019 - 02:51 PM.


#2 Orion

Orion

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:49 PM

Free-will is possible until you affect anothers.

That is why we have Laws.



#3 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2894 posts

Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:04 PM

Well, yeah, Orion.  The imposition of criminal punishment presupposes that people have a choice, and that their choices are not simply a product of immutable fate.

 

Anyone who believes individuals have no free will should strenuously object, on moral grounds, to ever punishing anyone for their actions.  They are not responsible for their actions; fate is.  They have no choice and are therefore completely innocent. It would be like blaming someone for falling down when they get run over by a car, ya know?

 

“RESPONSIBILITY, n. A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star.”   (Ambrose Bierce)

 


Edited by Moronium, 01 February 2019 - 06:55 PM.


#4 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2894 posts

Posted 01 February 2019 - 08:29 PM

Cool.  I love comic book "science."



#5 VictorMedvil

VictorMedvil

    The Human Shadow

  • Members
  • 1038 posts

Posted 02 February 2019 - 02:42 AM

There is no such thing as "free will" only my Will!  :protest:


Edited by VictorMedvil, 02 February 2019 - 06:48 AM.


#6 Moronium

Moronium

    Creating

  • Members
  • 2894 posts

Posted 02 February 2019 - 07:59 AM

Cool.  I love comic book "science."

 

This comment was made in response to a series of posts made by Poly, which he has since apparently deleted.  I should have copied and pasted them.  He claimed to have a formula, one suggested by comic books, that explained every event in the universe and which gave him the ability to control all people's thoughts.



#7 montgomery

montgomery

    Questioning

  • Members
  • 234 posts

Posted 15 February 2019 - 12:41 PM

I have been told many times that there is no such thing as free will, and that any notion to the contrary is the product of self-deluding illusion.

 

The primary assumptions underlying this claim seem to emanate from the presumption of a mechanical materialistic reductionism that controls nature, where everything that happens has been preordained by fate.

 

The concept of cause and effect seems to prevail here.  Everything that happens is simply a necessary effect of an antecedent cause, ad infinitum (both forwards and backwards).

 

Every word a person says, every thought he thinks, every action he takes, every (illusory) decision he makes is the product of an antecedent cause over which he had no control.  And this chain of causation goes back to the beginning of time--call it the big bang, if you want.

 

The upshot is that we're all just automatons reading from a pre-written script that cannot be altered. We can't make real "choices" any more than a cannonball can "choose" not to leave the barrel of a cannon once it has been detonated.

 

These people will advance any number of arguments which are to designed to persuade you that their view is correct.

 

But I can't see why.  If they are correct, then they're just reciting things they have been forced by all-pervading causation to say.  They are not capable of logical reasoning.  They have no control over their thoughts.  Such a person has no free will to say anything other than "I (and you) have no free will."  That's the way they've been programmed.  They were predestined to say that eons ago.  Under those circumstances, how could their claims possibly be persuasive?

 

So I just tell them:  "Come back and tell me that when you're no longer a robotic machine and are able to control, and discriminate in, your own utterances, eh?"

 

All you've done is persuade me that, even assuming you're right, you have no reason for claiming you're right.  So quit bullshitting about having "reasons" for your claims.  I might as well listen to a parrot.

 

Is there some other explanation for the claim that people have no free will?  Something other than the irresistible force of cause and effect, I mean?

The laws on what constitutes a crime are basically the same but the crime rate varies from country to country. For one example, the crime of rape is much higher than all or nearly all other first world countries. 

 

This seems to suggest that there's more to it than just being predetermined. Government and society have to be playing a big part in the question.