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What Exactly Is The Alt-Right


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#86 OceanBreeze

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:16 AM

From a purely evolutionary viewpoint of course, what you're arguing here is Allopatric Speciation. I mean, you *are* saying that people of color aren't as capable/energetic/intelligent as white people and that's why class differences show a correlation with race, right?

If that's not it, why *do* we see that correlation?

 

 

 

How dishonest can you get? That is not at all what I am talking about, and your insinuations that I in any way suggested people of color aren't as capable/energetic/intelligent as white people” show that you are incapable of having an honest discussion.

 

For the record, and you can read exactly what I wrote; I said nothing about genetics and pointed out that we are all of African descent. There cannot be any correlation with race as we are all one race!

 

I thought I made it clear that the difference in development was entirely due to the opportunity afforded by the different environment. When a person’s time is not entirely consumed with swatting disease carrying insects and dealing with dangerous animals, there is time for experimenting with different types of social structures. In fact, many of these same factors are still hampering development in Africa today.

 

The type of differences in development I am talking about most likely started before there were any white people at all, just people who lived in different environments that afforded different advantages for the development of technology and culture.



#87 Turtle

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:35 AM

... 
I thought I made it clear that the difference in development was entirely due to the opportunity afforded by the different environment. When a person’s time is not entirely consumed with swatting disease carrying insects and dealing with dangerous animals, there is time for experimenting with different types of social structures. In fact, many of these same factors are still hampering development in Africa today.
 
The type of differences in development I am talking about most likely started before there were any white people at all, just people who lived in different environments that afforded different advantages for the development of technology and culture.

There is a book that makes this very argument. :)

Guns, Germs and Steel: A short history of everybody for the last 13,000 years @Wiki

...In 1998, Guns, Germs, and Steel won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction and the Aventis Prize for Best Science Book. A documentary based on the book, and produced by the National Geographic Society, was broadcast on PBS in July 2005.[1]

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian and North African civilizations have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral, or inherent genetic superiority. Diamond argues that the gaps in power and technology between human societies originate primarily in environmental differences, which are amplified by various positive feedback loops. When cultural or genetic differences have favored Eurasians (for example, written language or the development among Eurasians of resistance to endemic diseases), he asserts that these advantages occurred because of the influence of geography on societies and cultures (for example, by facilitating commerce and trade between different cultures) and were not inherent in the Eurasian genomes. ...



#88 Buffy

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:42 AM

How dishonest can you get? That is not at all what I am talking about, and your insinuations that I in any way suggested people of color aren't as capable/energetic/intelligent as white people” show that you are incapable of having an honest discussion.


The problem is that if you keep ignoring the relevant issues, it's hard to have an honest discussion! :cheer:

Happy to have one with you!
 

For the record, and you can read exactly what I wrote; I said nothing about genetics and pointed out that we are all of African descent. There cannot be any correlation with race as we are all one race!


Well I'm glad we agree on that point! 
 

I thought I made it clear that the difference in development was entirely due to the opportunity afforded by the different environment. When a person’s time is not entirely consumed with swatting disease carrying insects and dealing with dangerous animals, there is time for experimenting with different types of social structures. In fact, many of these same factors are still hampering development in Africa today.


Well unfortunately, if you're simply saying "life in Africa and life in US/Europe is different because the opportunity in each place is different," that's more than a bit of a non-sequitur.

The problem here is to explain why people of different races solely within the US/Europe have statistically significant differences in rates of "success." I spent quite a bit of time discussing that in my post, and it's in fact much of what the discussion in this thread is all about.

I'll leave it to the viewers to decide if avoiding that topic is being dishonest.
 

The Alt-right does indeed believe that such differences are due to "race," and the only solution is segregation and discrimination. Most people like you don't agree with that, and that's a given, but like you, they prefer to ignore the clear data that shows that racial distribution continues to persist in spite of the fact that, as you said, the "systemic and legal discrimination" was long ago eliminated from our society.

 

That begs the question, "why is there continued evidence of prejudice and discrimination?"

 

So the only thing I posed above is exactly that question: if people of color aren't inferior as the Alt-Right says they are, what *is* the reason for it? And what should be done about it, given that the traditional admonishments to "just wait, it will get better eventually" just don't seem to be happening?

 

I have a lot of friends who just don't want to talk about this stuff, as it's uncomfortable, so I'm quite familiar with your reaction here, but I'd suggest it's something people ought to think about and I'm happy to engage you on it's implications.

 

It's not really a right-or-left thing: as I said above, Bernie folks have been arguing something similar. But unfortunately it is kind of a black-and-white thing.

 

 

When someone beats a rug, the blows are not against the rug, but against the dust in it. :phones:
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#89 OceanBreeze

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 08:51 AM

 

 

Thanks for that reference. I haven’t read the book, but I am fairly certain I did read the Wiki page before. This isn’t the first time I have considered this issue.

My own conclusions are based primarily on my own observations and just common sense.

I think it is beyond question, if we were to separate two identical twins at birth and let them develop in two vastly different environments, their development will also be vastly different.

But, somewhere there will be someone who will even find that remark to be “racist”! In fact, some liberal idiot will no doubt claim that is a form of environmental racism, completely disregarding the fact we are talking about identical twins!

Race has not one damn thing to do with it, it is ALL environment.



#90 Buffy

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 09:14 AM

I think it is beyond question, if we were to separate two identical twins at birth and let them develop in two vastly different environments, their development will also be vastly different.

But, somewhere there will be someone who will even find that remark to be “racist”! In fact, some liberal idiot will no doubt claim that is a form of environmental racism, completely disregarding the fact we are talking about identical twins!

Race has not one damn thing to do with it, it is ALL environment.

 

That's great! Now we're getting somewhere! 

 

Now, two questions:

  • Your earlier post insisted that you were focusing on the difference in environment between Europe/US and Sub-Saharan Africa. Do you argue that everyone who lives in Europe/US, regardless of color has the "same environment?"
  • And if so, how do you explain that difference in achievement in US/Europe shows strong divergence in success/outcomes aligned along racial lines?

There's nothing wrong with basing your thoughts on your own observations and common sense, but as this is a science forum, it's necessary to deal with all the facts.

 

 

It's all very simple. But maybe because it's so simple, it's also hard, :phones:

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#91 sanctus

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:15 AM

The white supremists are a bunch of losers, but so are the bleeding-heart liberals who think all white people are born with some sort of original sin and have to feel guilt and shame for their “privilege”.



For the record, I never said (and also never wanted to imply it) that a white person should feel guilty or ashamed for their privilege. All I was saying is we have to acknowledge it, so we can bring change. And I heard a lot of this book Turtle referenced, definitively a must-read.
 

#92 OceanBreeze

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 08:08 AM



For the record, I never said (and also never wanted to imply it) that a white person should feel guilty or ashamed for their privilege. All I was saying is we have to acknowledge it, so we can bring change. And I heard a lot of this book Turtle referenced, definitively a must-read.
 

 

 

That is a given sanctus. Your posts have always been level-headed (unlike some other person in this thread)

 

I agree about the book. I intend to read it. Just looking at the excerpts it looks like something I might have written myself. :surprise:

 

Anyway, I will not say anything more in this thread or any other thread on this topic; it is not my idea of an enjoyable, fruitful discussion, so I am out.



#93 Buffy

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:33 AM

This is of course a contentious topic that unfortunately has been made more difficult by a mix of strong partisanship and demonization of various views far beyond what is reasonable, simply because it's easier to call one's opponents "racists" or "extreme liberals" than to actually maintain an open mind and deal with the actual facts at hand.

 

Yes, both sides are guilty of doing that, but it should be noted that it's become fashionable to take personal offense to statements regarding such facts, and if we're going to succeed in communicating about this topic and finding useful and generally acceptable solutions, it's going to require that everyone avoid simply dismissing that which they find uncomfortable.

 

More importantly though, it will take some effort to realize that those who you may have considered enemies may well turn out to be your best allies in this endeavor. 

 

So, back to data: We've talked here about privilege and it's relationship to being of a particular race--something that is central to actual Alt-Right principles--and the fact that it is both toxic as well as simply not being very useful.

 

It is absolutely true that whatever "privilege" white people have in society is extremely unevenly distributed, and I ran across this chart today to show a bit about why while it's important for all white people to consider why people of color do suffer in general from de facto--although at a simplistic level, not de jure--prejudice, the vast majority of privilege is concentrated at the top levels in a way that it ensures continued limiting of access to those who are not members of society's elite class.

 

The presentation here is a bit misleading because, as you might imagine considering the source, there's no desire to point out the essential problem, but based on figures from this year's entering class at Harvard University, the most exclusive in the US which confers endless open doors simply because you went there (AKA "privilege"), 41% of the class are "legacy admissions," that is, as the graph makes clear, they were given at least some preference simply because a relative was a graduate:

 

DImr1LzWsAE2Bx9.jpg

 

Now private institutions have every right to do this, and it is quite frankly the reason that they're able to raise so much money from Alumni. Also, somewhat to try to ameliorate this statistic, there's some evidence that Harvard does do quite a bit of Affirmative Action by race:

  • African American: 14.6%
  • Asian American: 22.2%
  • Hispanic or Latino: 11.6%
  • Native American or Pacific Islander: 2.5%
  • Anglo/Other: 49.9%
 
The numbers for the general population for the US are roughly:
  • African American 12.6%
  • Asian American 5.1%
  • Hispanic or Latino: 17.1%
  • Native American or Pacific Islander: 1.0%
  • Anglo/Other 61.2%
Thus, while African and Native Americans are slightly over-represented, the numbers that are very out of line are Asian Americans at the expense of both Anglos and Hispanics.
 
I would guess that if those "legacy admissions" were eliminated, that the distribution would look more like Berkeley, which I mentioned in a previous post
 
It's certainly fair to question whether *any* kind of program to help the "disadvantaged" is "fair" or not, but it helps to look at how the "advantaged" stay so, and measuring actual outcomes as I have here is critical to seeing what the actual effects of such social policies are.
 
I'd point out that I don't think anything on this topic is "obvious," and as with any scientific analysis, the more you dig, the more problems and contradictions you encounter.
 
And I think we have a lot of issues to discuss on this point, so to tie back to the OP, one of the key things the Alt-Right is, is a mechanism to turn anger and feelings of injustice toward groups that are not the source of that anger through oversimplification and avoidance of analysis and facts.
 
 
Do not expect to arrive at certainty in every subject which you pursue. There are a hundred things wherein we mortals. . . must be content with probability, where our best light and reasoning will reach no farther, :phones:
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#94 Turtle

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 12:15 AM

Thanks for that reference. I haven’t read the book, but I am fairly certain I did read the Wiki page before....
[size=NaN][font=calibri]Race has not one damn thing to do with it, it is ALL environment.

You're welcome. :)
Where environment includes -if not demands- luck. :spin:

#95 serenesam

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 08:33 AM

It sure is interesting that one of the prominent figures in The Alt-Right known as Vox Day calls himself "Supreme Dark Lord" on Twitter. Just Google "Vox Day."



#96 TomKalbfus

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:23 PM

The Alt-Right is something made up by the left, a bogeyman to smear Trump and conservatives as being racist.



#97 Buffy

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:42 PM

The Alt-Right is something made up by the left, a bogeyman to smear Trump and conservatives as being racist.

 

Nope. See the Wikipedia entry on Alt-Right:

 

The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism. White supremacist[1] Richard Spencer initially promoted the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism and did so according to the Associated Press to disguise overt racism, white supremacism, neo-fascism and neo-Nazism.


If you don't trust Wikipedia it cites multiple sources for it that you can check yourself.

My favorite piece of evidence though is Steve Bannon's line referring to Breitbart: "We're the platform for the Alt-Right." (That link is the National Review, a right-wing publication that I'd imagine you might trust, but based on what you've said, I'm sure you view them as Commie sell-outs: that makes you right-wing fringe.)

 

So no dear, it's not "made up by the left."

 

That this is so easy to disprove, just goes to show how desperate you are. Sad.

 

 

Let me tell you about the law of holes: If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging, :phones:

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#98 serenesam

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 11:05 AM

Just for people's reference, RationalWiki and Rightpedia each has an entry for Alt-Right:
 
Alt-right - RationalWiki
 
Alt-right - Rightpedia

Edited by serenesam, 21 October 2017 - 11:07 AM.