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#18 A-wal

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 07:20 AM

Utter horse ****! Christianity is in no way responsible for any positive contributions to science, education, innovation, medicine, technology and standard of living, art maybe. Christianity is responsible for more pain and suffering than anything else in modern history and is the most evil and perverse form of spirituality that exists. It enlists followers through fear and preaches hatred to towards anyone not dumb enough to swallow its ****.

 

It's stunted our grown, is an insult to logic and reason and is morally the worst influence by far on the western world. Christianity is a plague that needs to be wiped out!


Edited by A-wal, 05 January 2017 - 07:22 AM.


#19 exchemist

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:06 AM

Utter horse ****! Christianity is in no way responsible for any positive contributions to science, education, innovation, medicine, technology and standard of living, art maybe. Christianity is responsible for more pain and suffering than anything else in modern history and is the most evil and perverse form of spirituality that exists. It enlists followers through fear and preaches hatred to towards anyone not dumb enough to swallow its ****.

 

It's stunted our grown, is an insult to logic and reason and is morally the worst influence by far on the western world. Christianity is a plague that needs to be wiped out!

It has given us a lot of great art and music though, has it not?   



#20 Farming guy

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:25 AM

Utter horse ****! Christianity is in no way responsible for any positive contributions to science, education, innovation, medicine, technology and standard of living, art maybe. Christianity is responsible for more pain and suffering than anything else in modern history and is the most evil and perverse form of spirituality that exists. It enlists followers through fear and preaches hatred to towards anyone not dumb enough to swallow its ****.

 

It's stunted our grown, is an insult to logic and reason and is morally the worst influence by far on the western world. Christianity is a plague that needs to be wiped out!

Check out http://qideas.org/ar...al-perspective/

If you look at the history beginning in the middle ages, you may find that science owes it's very foundation to Christianity.

 

Just because you hate something doesn't mean it is of no value.



#21 HydrogenBond

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 08:25 AM

It has given us a lot of great art and music though, has it not?   

How can beauty from art and music comes from anything so evil and sinister? 

 

Modern Christianity came from a merger of Rome and Christianity, in the 4th century AD. Render onto God what is God's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. There are two apparently opposing elements, merged as one thing. The Church had secular interests and religious interests, with the secular interests; Caesar, having more control over material reality, such as weapons and money. If you research Christianity before 4th century AD, you won;'t find the same things. The merger made turn the other cheek, sometime more like strike first. 



#22 exchemist

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:07 AM

Check out http://qideas.org/ar...al-perspective/

If you look at the history beginning in the middle ages, you may find that science owes it's very foundation to Christianity.

 

Just because you hate something doesn't mean it is of no value.

Yes. Anyone who has been taught at a place like Oxford will realise it and others like it in the mediaeval world were Christian - largely monastic - foundations.

 

One can of course argue that if the church had not become the centre of learning then some other structure would have arisen, but this can only be mere speculation. It seems hard to deny that, in actual history, the early scientists were often clerically influenced and sponsored. Newton studied for ordination, though never took it up, Hooke was a cathedral chorister, Cardinal Wiseman was an advocate of the advances in geology in the c.19th that pushed back the age of the Earth by millions of years, and so forth.  

 

A-Wal also claims that Christianity "preaches hatred towards anyone not dumb enough to swallow its ****".  I would have thought this claim would require supporting evidence, as it seems completely at variance with the teaching of Christ as expounded in the Gospels. 


Edited by exchemist, 05 January 2017 - 09:07 AM.


#23 A-wal

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 09:09 AM

It has given us a lot of great art and music though, has it not?   

Art, yea maybe. Music? What like Creed? Or www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w :)

 

Check out http://qideas.org/ar...al-perspective/

If you look at the history beginning in the middle ages, you may find that science owes it's very foundation to Christianity.

 

Just because you hate something doesn't mean it is of no value.

Yes I do hate it (and organised religion in general to a lesser extent) and it's the one of the few things that I find very difficult to think impartially about, but I think it's held back science (or at least tried to) a lot more than it's helped it.

 

How can beauty from art and music comes from anything so evil and sinister? 

 

Modern Christianity came from a merger of Rome and Christianity, in the 4th century AD. Render onto God what is God's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. There are two apparently opposing elements, merged as one thing. The Church had secular interests and religious interests, with the secular interests; Caesar, having more control over material reality, such as weapons and money. If you research Christianity before 4th century AD, you won;'t find the same things. The merger made turn the other cheek, sometime more like strike first. 

Beacuse beauty and art come from within, not from stupid fairy tales. This is what Christianity really stands for:

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures. (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

“All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

And so on.



#24 exchemist

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

Art, yea maybe. Music? What like Creed? Or www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w :)

 

Yes I do hate it (and organised religion in general to a lesser extent) and it's the one of the few things that I find very difficult to think impartially about, but I think it's held back science (or at least tried to) a lot more than it's helped it.

 

Beacuse beauty and art come from within, not from stupid fairy tales. This is what Christianity really stands for:

 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures. (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

“All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

And so on.

This is all rather disappointing. Two points:

 

1) Every biblical quotation you offer is from the Old Testament, i.e. is part of the older Jewish tradition that Christianity inherited as background, not from the teaching of Christ, which is what defines Christianity itself. The New Testament, which is about the life and teaching of Christ, updates and replaces the Old. I do not think you will find anything in the NT to support your contention, though I am willing to be proved wrong. In fact Christ explicitly contrasts the old Jewish legalistic approach of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" with his new exhortation to "turn the other cheek" and paradoxically to love your enemies. Just as he replaces the old 10 commandments with two new, overarching, ones.

 

2) Musically you seem to have a serious gap in your education. If you knew anything about music, from Josquin des Pres through to Bach, Mozart, and right through to Britten, you would understand that much of the greatest music of all time has Christian inspiration and many pieces are devotional works. I mention for example Bach's St Matthew and St John Passions, his Mass in B Minor, anything by Josquin des Pres, Palestrina or Victoria, Monteverdi's 1610 Vespers, Mozart's Mass in C Minor and his and Verdi's Requiems, Handel's Messiah or La Resurrezione....... The list is almost endless.    


Edited by exchemist, 05 January 2017 - 12:17 PM.


#25 DrKrettin

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:36 PM

This is all rather disappointing. Two points:

 

1) Every biblical quotation you offer is from the Old Testament, i.e. is part of the older Jewish tradition that Christianity inherited as background, not from the teaching of Christ, which is what defines Christianity itself. The New Testament, which is about the life and teaching of Christ, updates and replaces the Old. I do not think you will find anything in the NT to support your contention, though I am willing to be proved wrong. In fact Christ explicitly contrasts the old Jewish legalistic approach of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" with his new exhortation to "turn the other cheek" and paradoxically to love your enemies. Just as he replaces the old 10 commandments with two new, overarching, ones.

 

2) Musically you seem to have a serious gap in your education. If you knew anything about music, from Josquin des Pres through to Bach, Mozart, and right through to Britten, you would understand that much of the greatest music of all time has Christian inspiration and many pieces are devotional works. I mention for example Bach's St Matthew and St John Passions, his Mass in B Minor, anything by Josquin des Pres, Palestrina or Victoria, Monteverdi's 1610 Vespers, Mozart's Mass in C Minor and his and Verdi's Requiems, Handel's Messiah or La Resurrezione....... The list is almost endless.    

 

You beat me to it with point 1) with which I agree totally. But I have serious reservations about point 2). The inspiration (note the etymology there) for writing this music is doubtless Christian, but I don't think the Christian belief should necessarily take credit. The prevailing belief at the time would have been the inspiration for these composers (except for Islam, obscene in its suppression of musical expression) because the music transcends the particular faith. I have of course no proof of this, and anyway how could you omit Mahler?



#26 exchemist

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 12:49 PM

You beat me to it with point 1) with which I agree totally. But I have serious reservations about point 2). The inspiration (note the etymology there) for writing this music is doubtless Christian, but I don't think the Christian belief should necessarily take credit. The prevailing belief at the time would have been the inspiration for these composers (except for Islam, obscene in its suppression of musical expression) because the music transcends the particular faith. I have of course no proof of this, and anyway how could you omit Mahler?

Yes of course one might say that if Christianity had not existed then maybe equal inspiration might have been found due to some other motivation. That is the same point as I acknowledged in my first post, about the historical role of Christianity in learning. But as I said there, that can only be speculation, while the fact is that Christianity did, as a matter of historical fact, inspire these works, in many cases very deeply (e.g. the Bach examples).

 

As for Mahler, I only gave a handful of examples, largely from my own repertoire of the works I have sung. That does not include Mahler - and indeed I am not a huge Mahler fan, as it happens, but there we are. 



#27 Farming guy

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Posted 05 January 2017 - 06:27 PM

Yes. Anyone who has been taught at a place like Oxford will realise it and others like it in the mediaeval world were Christian - largely monastic - foundations.

 

 

I would like to point out that I have not been taught at any place even remotely resembling Oxford!  Anyone with an interest in history should be easily able learn that sort of thing, especially in the age of the internet!


Edited by Farming guy, 05 January 2017 - 06:27 PM.


#28 exchemist

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:04 AM

I would like to point out that I have not been taught at any place even remotely resembling Oxford!  Anyone with an interest in history should be easily able learn that sort of thing, especially in the age of the internet!

Yes I admit my European mindset is showing,  as just about all our ancient universities have religious origins. :)



#29 DrKrettin

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 07:31 AM

Yes I admit my European mindset is showing,  as just about all our ancient universities have religious origins. :)

 

 

I think I'm right in saying that all Oxford degrees up to the 20th century were technically degrees in divinity, until they branched out into Natural Science.  I might be wrong there, but certainly the religious origins are very obvious.



#30 exchemist

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 08:22 AM

I think I'm right in saying that all Oxford degrees up to the 20th century were technically degrees in divinity, until they branched out into Natural Science.  I might be wrong there, but certainly the religious origins are very obvious.

Oh? I thought there were degrees in divinity, law, medicine, music and "arts", which meant everything else (which is why my degree in chemistry is an MA, for example). But I may be wrong. I have a book somewhere on the history of the university. If I remember, I'll look it up. 



#31 current

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:08 PM

the Gnostics , were always against the redeemer complex .

 

the sacrafice .

 

to them it was not Natural .



#32 anomalous29

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:39 AM

Mithraism has sometimes been viewed as a rival of early Christianity[9] with similarities such as liberator-saviour, hierarchy of adepts (bishops, presbyters, deacons), communal meal and a hard struggle of Good and Evil (bull-killing/crucifixion).

Prior to Constantine forcing Christian's to agree upon one story of Jesus, Jesus was portrayed without facial hair.

In the Bible, Jesus was leaving the church to his brother James, not Peter.

Did you know there are over 600 commandments? One is how to sell your daughter into servitude and another is how to kill your disobedient son. Why would Moses call for the execution of 30,000 people as he's holding the known 10 commandments?

The bible is borrowed stories from religions that are no longer being practiced. It is also full of contradictions (within the same old/new testament).

#33 anomalous29

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:44 AM

According to Christian science, the Earth is only 6,000yrs old. Yet real science has proven the world to be older than 4 billion yrs old with 99% accuracy. What do we owe Christianity that wasn't readily available? It seems any contributions of substance or value is pawned off as if Christians bestowed it upon us.

#34 exchemist

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:03 AM

According to Christian science, the Earth is only 6,000yrs old. Yet real science has proven the world to be older than 4 billion yrs old with 99% accuracy. What do we owe Christianity that wasn't readily available? It seems any contributions of substance or value is pawned off as if Christians bestowed it upon us.

This is untrue in two respects. First, there is no such thing as "Christian" science, as distinct from any other sort. Religious beliefs play no part in the theories of science, though many of its practitioners are believers of course. Second, you are referring to Bishop Ussher's chronology for the age of the Earth. This was one (Irish) view, of a clergyman who was certainly influential in his time, but his views were never adopted  as firm Christian doctrine, so far as I can tell. And certainly they are not part of the doctrine of any serious branch of Christianity today. (I have enormous difficulty regarding 7th Day Adventists as serious :) )

 

In fact, some of the people who played the biggest roles in establishing the true timescale were religious people. I mention William Buckland for example: https://en.wikipedia...illiam_Buckland who was actually an Anglican priest and theologian.  I could also mention the lectures given by Cardinal Wiseman in Rome in the 1840s, in which he commended the new discoveries in geology, about the age of the Earth, as being quite consistent with Christian teaching. This was all well before Darwin's Origin of Species, by the way. 

 

As I said earlier, much of European scholarship was conducted in universities which were religious foundations.  Isaac Newton studied for the priesthood at one point, though he became Unitarian in the end I believe and never took it up. Copernicus did take holy orders - and his work on heliocentrism was met with approval by the then pope! : https://en.wikipedia...laus_Copernicus

 

Lastly, where do you get this supposed accuracy of 99%? I have never come across this figure. Is it based on something, or have you just made it up to sound good for rhetorical purposes?


Edited by exchemist, 10 March 2017 - 09:24 AM.




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