The Bible and it's religion.

[Southtown]

I am one. HAHAHA (well, at times)

 

 

But the LORD said to Samuel,

“

Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

—

1 Samuel 16:7 nkjv

 

The Levitical laws were merely to preserve an uncivilized culture in a barbaric environment. (He never intended to torch people for not burying their feces.) The ten commandments were the description of God. (Exodus 33:17-34:9) Only the One from God, Jesus, could keep the commandments because He was already divine — the laws didn't make Him divine. That's why all have sinned, because no human can perfectly follow a divine set of laws. Indeed, no person can attain divinity by their actions, anyway.

 

God's plan was not to judge people by their actions, but by their obstinance. The salvation of the OT and the NT were of faith, not works. The Jews just misinterpreted salvation as being from their obedience, rather than from God's promise. And some denied the clarification when Christ came. Still many deny to this day that salvation is available to us (all of us) outside of earning it.

 

 

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham

“believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

” [

Genesis 15:6

] Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,

“In you all the nations shall be blessed.

” [

Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14

] So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

 

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written,

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

” [

Deuteronomy 27:26

] But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for

“the just shall live by faith.

” [

Habakkuk 2:4

]

—

Galatians 3:5-11 nkjv

[Guest loarevalo]

As to long hair, I think is like the issue with tatoos, and heavy metal music, and wasting time in front of a reality TV show. It won't drag you to Hell.

 

Certainly, all those foolish behaviours are unbecoming of the refined, sensible, mature, virtuous - the spiritual and upright person. It is the decision of that virtuos man to follow the ridiculous fashion of the world, or conduct his life with modesty and dignity. While modesty is often defined in context with culture (in Jesus' time Jewish men were required to have long hair and facial hair, according to Old Testament law), there are nonetheless absolute standards of decency - like wearing clothes!

 

Once, I read in a bomper sticker "My body is NOT a temple, it is an amusement park!" The true humble Christian recognizes that his/her body is a temple, and would do the best to keep it tidy, clean, modest.

[Guest loarevalo]

Of course, the things of the flesh and appeareance aren't the most important. We try our best to look presentable and "sharp" - that I think is enough for God. On the other side, an over preocupation with our body's presentation detracts from the a spiritual perspective. That's why my standard is: modesty.

[majordinkydau]

You clean the outside of the cup but inside you are full of all uncleanness. What yor neighbors have to say about you has no effect on your standing before God. A lot of people the world think are wonderful will hear Jesus say "I never knew you" Only God can clean our insides and make us presentable in his presence.

Love covers a multitude of sins, this is the only outer activity we can imbrace to help cover our failings. All our endeavors should be to know Him and let Him teach us how to love others. Both Rahab and Lot had serious moral failings yet they took in strangers, this is what saved them from the fate their neighbors found. Rahab is listed as in the lineage of Christ. God is not worried about our moral purity but our hearts. All sin tarnishes our heart and tends to make us turn away from God. This is why Adam and Eve hid in the garden. You can chop your hand off if you wish but God will not be impressed. Every sin we commit is a chopping off of something God gave us for our benifit, this is the law of reaping and sowing. Man makes up his lists of sins that are appalling and those that are not too bad but God does not grade on a curve. The worst sins are the ones we don't hate and make our peace with. I would rather struggle with a great moral failure and weep before God than hold on to a socially acceptable crime and wink at it.

[Southtown]

I believe Paul referred to the congregations as 'churches' but at the time these were nothing more than small home meetings.

 

You're right - the charities do great work.

LOL Actually, Paul said:

 

Transliterated as ekklesia, Strong defines the Greek word literally as "a calling out; i.e. a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation." This is a generic term, meaning that Paul did not intend its use to imply respective doctrinal intricacies, but more a gathering of all believers in a given locale.

 

Funny how tradition adds meaning to the language over time, rather than vice versa. :)

[Guest loarevalo]

I believe Paul referred to the congregations as 'churches' but at the time these were nothing more than small home meetings.

 

You're right - the charities do great work.

:evil: That was precisely my point! I thought there was a misunderstanding as to this, but now I see we are on the same page.

 

To continue, what about apostles? and the re-establishment of the church?

As I understand the Old Testament and Rev. 11:2 and other passager: Israel will be gathered right before the Second Coming, and the temple in Jerusalem will be built, and there will again be prophets (Rev. 11) preaching repentance to the people to prepare them for the "great and dreadful day of the Lord." Isaiah writes many things concerning the times of restitution that begins immediately before the Second Coming, and continues through the millenium, and after it until the devil is finally beaten (Rev. 20:10) and "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire."

 

As I understand, Duckweesel said the chuch would be re-established as Christ comes. I say, the church must be re-established before He comes, to prepare us. If we are expecting the Second Coming, should we not observe the signs and thus expect for the re-establishment of His church?

 

Jesus said he would come as thief during the night (meaning, we don't know exactly when He comes, until He has come) - so, it is clear some people will miss out on the re-establishment of the Church. When seeking after the Church, if it is here already, what do we look for? what do we expect the re-established Church to be like?

[Guest loarevalo]

You missed my point, majordinkidau. If we don't follow after the world and it's fashions and passions, and thus do our best to be modest, clean, virtuos, we are not over-occupied with the exterior. We precisely are to be modest so we can focus on our interior. Being modest means that we dress our appearence so that we're comfortable, proper, and don't purposely call attention on our selves, or on our appearence, so we can focus on what's important. How can dressing modestly be self-righteous or hypocritical?

 

Jesus said that nothing unclean can enter into His kingdom - of course he refered to spiritual purity, not physical. That we seek cleaning ourselves spiritually is not an excuse to forget about our physical body entirely. If our body's health meant absolutely nothing, Jesus wouldn't have been so merciful as to heal so many as he did. Yet, Jesus wanted mostly to heal people spiritually - that was his mission and He fulfilled it entirely (he didn't physically cure everyone in the world, but did cure spiritually everyone through his atoning sacrifice, if everyone would believe on him).

 

Being tidy and clean on the outside isn't a sign of faithfulness and righteousness. However, those that are faithfull and righteous can't help being modest on their appearences - they are modest by nature or by effect of their desire to live in harmony with God. Modesty is not only a standard for bodily appearence, it encompasses every aspect of our behaviour, so it also implies being humble, tender, merciful, loving, long-suffering, teachable, etc..

[Guest loarevalo]

We can know by the 'times' when His return is close - no one will 'miss' Christ - God wouldn't let that happen! Read preview of 'THE SECRET GOD REVEALED TO HIS PROPHETS' at Lulu.com

I read that preview. :hihi: Are you the author of it? :D

It seemed interesting. Yet, I didn't read anything I hadn't already thought myself as I read the Bible and had to understand it as one harmonious work.

 

Yes, people if they observe the "times" will know when the His coming is close - but they will not know when exactly He comes, what day or what year, no one knows, "not the angels of heaven, but My father only."

 

To the faithfull that await for Him, His coming will not be of great surprise, as it wasn't surprising for Noah when the rain would stop pouring. However, for everyone else that is skeptic, the Second Coming will be completely unexpected - and terrible, frightening, a day of "burning." To the righteous, it will be a day of glory and justice.

 

About the fact people will "miss" as to being surprised by Christ's coming Matthew 24: 36-44. Read the whole chapter 24 again if you wish as well.

 

Notice how clear this verse is (Matthew 24:14):

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come."

It should be obvious that by "the end" it is understood "the end of the world" as explained in John's Revelation. Therefore, the gospel must be preached unto all the world before His coming. We must also infer that the gospel is to be administered by those with authority, that is, by the true Church. Certainly, there will be people, as in the times of Noah, that will not believe, and thus they will caught by surprise by the judgements of God "as the lightning cometh out of the east."

[Guest loarevalo]

You seem to think that there is something wrong with being a skeptic - I on the otherhand appreciate people who don't blindly accept things - God will never condemn someone for honest questioning.

We all have to confront the issue of religion and God, and life after death, etc. God doesn't condemn but rather encourages us to seek light and truth. However, why would we seek truth if we never intend to believe it? We must believe, and receive the truth and accept it. Surely we must question everything - but we can't doubt everything. The quest for truth requires that we already believe, and from there receive more light - not as the world would have it: doubt everything, and from there seek proof or a sign.

 

In my own skepticism, I had doubted, gone to look for arguments supporting a belief in God, and thus gone on a circle to return where I was - to a belief in God, not perfect knowledge. However, that round through doubt and then belief strenghtened my faith - but this is the ugly way to develop. The right way, is to exercise faith - obey, and then notice the good results, and thus develop.

 

You wield the Bible like it's a weapon to crush people with! You seem to get some special pleasure in the anticipation of the day of burning?

I didn't mean to "bible bash" you. I don't get pleasure from the suffering of others (Only God knows, I may be of the ones that will "burn").

 

The thing is that in Matt. 25 there were 'ten' virgins but only 'five' were 'wise' and 'ready' when Jesus returns. If they were 'wise' it's because they have 'wisdom' - can you tell me what that is exactly because no one will get to heaven without it?

"Wisdom" here equates righteousness, obedience, faithfullness, loyalty, etc... Being good. As you said, passages cannot be interpreted verbatim alone. In this parable, oil represents a reservoir of faith and righteousness. Similar to parable of the unwise steward, given that we don't know when Jesus comes, we must be prepared at all times, that is, be diligent in our stewardship and endure to the end - because He will come when we least expect it.

[Guest loarevalo]

As I understand, the gospel will be preached (the church will be re-established) before the end comes, the second coming. How do you interpret Matthew 24:14?

The bible speaks much about the times of restitution, restoration, gathering, etc...The gathering of Israel is both a physical gathering of the people to their lands, and a spiritual gathering, back to the gospel of the true God, to the church of God. It is evident this gathering already began, at least the physical gathering of the Jews back to Palestine.

 

Restoration, and gathering, begin shortly before the second coming, and will continue through the millenium. So, there must be a preparation of the Earth before the second coming:

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ..." - Ephesians 1:10

I understand the term "dispensation" to mean "dispensation of the gospel" or an administration of the gospel - this is the function of the church. As Israel is gathered spiritually we will see many converting, and Jerusalem established again as a righteous city, and the temple will be built there

(Zech. 8:20-23).

 

"...I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions...And I will shew wonders...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance...and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." - Joel 2:28-32

 

Yet, there will also be those that will not repent, that will not believe in Christ, and will "make war with the saints" (Rev. 13:7). The two witness will be the last witnesses given to Israel and the world, and the "beast" (Rev. 13:5) will fight with them for three and a half years, and then Christ comes.

 

We live in the last days, yet while many things are yet to be filfulled, many things are already happening. It's plain understanding that Christ will soon come, and we must join to help in the gathering as we ourselves also go to "spiritual" Jerusalem.

[Boerseun]

A lot of good and fair points have been raised in this thread.

 

However, I'm of the opinion that this specific thread is slightly overstaying its welcome, seeing as it's getting a bit long and tedious to read as far as newcomers are concerned.

 

There are points raised in this thread that merit their own threads, as far as I'm concerned - so, please raise new and relevant threads so that we can kill this one.

 

Thanks,

 

Boerseun

[Guest loarevalo]

Got that! Probably will start a new thread soon.

 

The current question of the thread is:

 

The Bible speaks about the Church in the first century, is this Church here today? Assuming that the Church fell during the middle ages, is the re-established Church here? How do we recognize it when it comes?