The 2012 Prophecies

[Moontanman]

Michael, If indeed that happens I will be more than willing to apologize to you in any way you see fit and give you as much time as you want to draw media attention! But if you are wrong would you be willing to do the same? Refund everyones money who bought your book? Humble yourself in front of the world and admit to being wrong? I am so sure of human nature I'll bet you anything you want you are wrong!

[Pyrotex]

...

Google "Mayan Calendar Predictions": 297,000 pages.

Google "Mayan Prophecies": 401,000 pages

...Mayan Codices: The four best known: Dresden, Madrid, Paris, Grolier. OK, I was two short...particularly in the temple at Palenque.

Michael

Okay.

So you can list the biography of known codices, and the major temple and stella carvings.

Anybody with a web browser can do that.

 

BUT... WHAT are the prophecies? And how do you know they are prophecies instead of records of reigns and ceremonies? Nobody knows EXACTLY how to read Mayan hierglyphs because there are so few intact bodies of work, and no parallel translations.

 

The so-called prophecies are FABRICATED, Michael. You or those books of yours say, "the Mayans are prophecying that the sky will fall in 2012..." when really the text is saying "king Jaguar promises his reign will unite the 20 tribes and the 12 nations."

 

Voodoo. Claptrap. Mystical mumbo-jumbo.

 

It just gives you the feeling of being an "expert" about something, and being "persecuted for righteousness sake", and being a "lone voice crying in the wilderness".

 

Hooray for you. You got what you want.

[Turtle]

Turtle:

 

 

When/where did you get programed to believe that name calling and insults add to the cogency of an argument?

 

On second thought, I'm really not interested.

 

oh you're interested alright mickey, as evidenced by your responding to my repartee. :)

 

If you wake up to the realization that we are One Global Family in which Love prevails as the "Tree of Life blossoms with a fruit never before known (globally)" in late 2012... I will be glad to accept your apology.

Otherwise we can all continue to make the world a living hell of animosity, and humanity on earth can abandon all hope for any higher ideals. You, and all the other bashers here are collectively part of the problem, not the solution.

 

M

 

basher? didst thouest justeth calleth meuth a nameth? how dareth you sir to accost me with such douche-baggery as you have chastisedeth me for!! gird your loins laddy; cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh

.

/forums/images/smilies/banana_sign.gif

[Turtle]

.. Nobody knows EXACTLY how to read Mayan hierglyphs because there are so few intact bodies of work, and no parallel translations. ...

 

actually, someone now does know how to read over 90% of mayan characters. see my earlier post just a couple back with link to pbs special on this recent development.

 

otherwise, spot on on the clap-trap spottage. got yer back winston. :)

[Pyrotex]

...gird your loins laddy; cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh ...

You better do as he says... he means it.

[modest]

Are we sure the long count ends on that day?

 

The Mayan’s and Other pre-conquest Mesoamerican cultures had a lot of calendars, but the one usually referred to in this context is the Long Count calendar. It’s believed to have been used at least as early as Dec 12, 36 BC (7.16.3.2.13 LC). LC dates are simply positional numbers, with each position a digit from 0 to 19, except the 2nd least significant position, which is from 0 to 17.

 

There LC calendar doesn’t run out of dates on Dec 21, 2012, but rather just increments its most significant digit to advance from 12.19.19.17.19 to 13.0.0.0.0. So Jan 1, 2013 is 13.0.0.0.11. The last time this happened was 12.0.0.0.0 LC, which is believed (with some uncertainty, as noted in my previous post) to correspond to Sep 18, 1618. While there may have been some wild partying and something like millennial madness around that date, it’s fairly clear Mesoamericans knew the world didn’t end every time the LC date rolled over its most significant digit. The LC won’t run out of digits until July 11, 4378, and even then, there’s no reason it couldn’t just gain another digit to advance from 19.19.19.17.19 to 1.0.0.0.0.0.

 

if the correspondence to september 18, 1618 holds, it sounds like an equinox, not a solstice, to me.

 

Wait just a cotton-pickin'-minute. The long count doesn't even end in 2012? It just rolls over to 13? The same kind of rollover it has done every roughly 400 years since its creation?

 

I suppose that's worth inviting a few friends over, but definitly not worth putting up decorations. :)

 

So... we can certainly disprove my solstice question. The last 4 rollovers would be...

• Dec. 9, 435
  
• March 13, 830
  
• June 15, 1224
  
• Sep. 18, 1680
  

 

By the Gregorian calendar. I get from: Mesoamerican Long Count calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

None of those are solstices or equinoxes, so the one in 2012 is certainly coincidence.

 

Ok... I'm typing as I read here... Apparently there is some possible indication that the passage from the 13th to the 14th baktun (12.19.19.17.19 to 13.0.0.0.0) is more significant than the rest. Wiki attributes this idea to a post-columbian manuscript of a creation myth called the Popol Vuh. The creation myth apparently says that man was created on the last 12 to 13 rollover after three previously failed attempts at creating the world:

According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the K'iche' Maya of the Colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fourth world.[10] The Popol Vuh describes the first three creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fourth world where men were placed. In the Maya Long Count, the previous creation ended at the start of a 13th b'ak'tun.

 

The previous creation ended on a long count of 12.19.19.17.19. Another 12.19.19.17.19 will occur on December 20, 2012, followed by the start of the fourteenth b'ak'tun, 13.0.0.0.0, on December 21, 2012.[11]

Mesoamerican Long Count calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

As this is a post-columbian manuscript and may only represent a local creation myth, I don't think it should be given any significant weight.

 

...reading....

 

The only pre-Colombian Glyphs talking about the transition from the 13th to 14th baktun is apparently the archeological site "Tortuguero". The translation may or may not read somewhere in the neighborhood of:

 

The Thirteenth Bak'tun" will be finished (on) Four Ahaw, the Third of K'ank'in. ? will occur. (It will be) the descent(?) of the Nine Support (?) God(s) to the ?.

Tortuguero (Maya site) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

...yeah. That's quite a prophecy we got there.

 

~modest

[modest]

I appologize if this has already been commented on in this thread, but it seems relevent to current discussion.

 

Here are the only known glyphs talking about Dec. 2012 as mentioned above (Tortuguero Monument 6):

 

http://www.wayeb.org/drawings/trt_mon_006_a.png

 

It was discovered some 30 years ago and was most-recently translated (most-recent version of the translation) by Dave Stuart in 2006. Here it is:

 

As promised here's a quick translation of the final passage of

Tortuguero Monument 6, recording the 2012 Bak'tun ending:

 

Tzuhtz-(a)j-oom u(y)-uxlajuun pik

(ta) Chan Ajaw ux(-te') Uniiw.

Uht-oom ?

Y-em(al)?? Bolon Yookte' K'uh ta ?.

 

"The Thirteenth 'Bak'tun" will be finished

(on) Four Ajaw, the Third of Uniiw (K'ank'in).

? will occur.

(It will be) the descent(??) of the Nine Support? God(s) to the ?."

 

This is it. The term following uht-oom is the main puzzle, and largely

effaced. The "descent" reference is highly tentative, too. The

enigmatic deity Bolon Yookte' K'uh has been known for some time

from many sources, and I suspect that he (or they) has some tangential

relationship to the Principal Bird Deity, as well as war associations.

Interestingly, he is a protagonist in the deep time mythology of

Palenque, as recorded on Palenaue's Temple XIV tablet. A

long-lasting character who's still around somewhere waiting, I suppose.

-source

 

And... yeah... there we have it :)

 

~modest

[Pyrotex]

...None of those are solstices or equinoxes, so the one in 2012 is certainly coincidence. ...

I certainly have no intention of offending you, modest. Actually, you know that I hold you in the highest esteem. And ordinarily, I wouldn't say this but...

 

:singer:

I told you so! I wuz Right!!

The coincidence had to go! I wuz Right!!

You insisted, NO!!

But I told you so!!

I wuz Right, I wuz Right, I wuz Right!!

 

One in ninety odds are much too high!!

You persisted, in the by and by.

But I called it Right!!

I won without a fight!!

I wuz Right, I wuz Right, I wuz Right!!

 

I don't want to rub it in.

Because you are my frien'... but ...

I wuz Right, I wuz Right, I wuz Right!!

 

:hihi:

[modest]

:hihi: :singer:

 

I'm always happy to prove you right I just wonder how reliable a source I am ;)

 

~modest

[Michael Mooney]

Michael, If indeed that happens I will be more than willing to apologize to you in any way you see fit and give you as much time as you want to draw media attention! But if you are wrong would you be willing to do the same? Refund everyones money who bought your book? Humble yourself in front of the world and admit to being wrong? I am so sure of human nature I'll bet you anything you want you are wrong!

 

I have answered this several times already. How you have missed it is beyond me.

Here is a brief review of my previous answers to your question, ..."But if you are wrong would you be willing to do the same?", i.e., admit it.

First a restatement of my intent to address those actually interested in the Mayan prophecy other than as an object of ridicule, as had prevailed up to my entry post and still does:

 

As I tossed my hat into the ring I made this statement of intent as to whom I am addressing. I knew that the rest of you would simply trash it. You have not disappointed.

Post 40:

(To)"Anyone who is willing to set aside wise cracking prejudice against the very concept of prophecy..."

 

From post 44 :

That's the best I can do for now. And, again, no folks, it is not science... but if this "Awakening" (by 2014) is not unanimously agreed... it will be a "miss"... wrong... "Bullshit." It is, after all, either a universal awakening or it will have been wrong.

This is the best "prophecy" can do to meet the scientific standard of being falsifiable.

From my post 66:

Whether or not the three of them "come true" will be verified or falsified in the transitional (if they are true) three years, 2011, 2012, and 2013 (into early 2014.)

As I said, if the outcome is still debatable I'll concede. Global awakening (from egocentric/ethnocentric consciousness must be

The Big Event, as I described early in the other 2012 thread, must be a general awakening or it will have been falsified.

 

This, from post 69 also already answered your question, and you may include yourself among the "bashers" to whom it is addressed:

If you wake up to the realization that we are One Global Family in which Love prevails as the "Tree of Life blossoms with a fruit never before known (globally)" in late 2012... I will be glad to accept your apology.

Otherwise we can all continue to make the world a living hell of animosity, and humanity on earth can abandon all hope for any higher ideals. You, and all the other bashers here are collectively part of the problem, not the solution.

 

At this point, and, as always, I reserve the right to change my mind (without asking permission), I am done with being the whipping boy for all you folks who can only ridicule prophecy.

"Time will tell," and all appropriate apologies and "I told you so's" can then be exchanged. Again, I expect to see the "blossom of promise" by the end of 2012, but the "fruit of human kindness" (globally) will not ripen 'til early 2014.

I HAVE SPOKEN. :singer: :hihi:

Michael

aka mik-I-el (Ref: See "Fortunately... Unfortunately" in the playground section.)

[Pyrotex]

... I just wonder how reliable a source I am :hihi:...

Don't second guess yourself, Modest. Your "rightness" is up there in the 95th Percentile. Hat's of to you -- and to your appreciation of my silly sense of humor.

[stereologist]

Years ago there was a radio station that did a grand Jan 1 celebration each year. That's right Jan 1, not New Year's eve celebration. What they did was get a copy of the tabloids from the previous year with the predictions and they read through them to see which predictions came true.

 

The show was hysterical! The predictions were so very wrong. Of course the end of the world, the huge plagues, asteroid crashes into earth, and WW III predictions were wrong. Funnier yet were the more mundane predictions like, "There will be a riot in a major US city." What are the chances that is wrong? Turns out the year of that prediction was the first time in a decade that there was no riot.

 

So what is going to happen in 2012? Anything but the claims of the psychics, seers, and other dorks out there preaching whatever. There is a great track record to show these nut cases are mor wrong than the flip of a coin.

[stereologist]

My buddy pulled off a great joke for the silly Y2K doom and gloomers. He invited people to his house for a party. At midnight he snuck outside and listed for the revelers doing the countdown 5 4 3 2 1. Then he pulled the main power to the house. Thought I had to wait till 2038 for another Y2K laugh. Guess I only have to wait to 2012.

[Moontanman]

Michael, I have never heard of a prophecy that has come true. Never in modern times has any one prophesied anything and had it come true. All anchient prophicies are unclear in whether they were before or after the fact of the event. I've seen many people claim such stuff but it is always false. At best it turns out to be the misguided ravings of the mentally unstable and at worst the attemptsof the dishonest to influence others into thinking they are some how special and privy to information no one else can come by. Te worst of them have monetary gain in mind and have no qualms about how or who they take money from. If you are indeed different then i humbly apologize but as I said before i see no reason what so ever to think you are some how special or in possession of special information and your source of prophecy is just as influenced by the personal wants , needs, and ideas of the person doing the interpretation. I see no reason why you would wantto proclaim such things on a forum dedicated to science and driven by evidence. You claim we are somehow bashing you but I say no, we are simply trying to get you to go by the rules and regulations everyone else has to go by on this forum. If you want to experience true bashing I suggest you proclaim your ideas on a fundamentalist religion site. I doubt you'll be allowed to post more than two or three times before you are banned. i think this site is among the most tolerant and forgiving of any I've posted on. so if you continue to make these supernatural claims i suggest you do so with a little more humility and be glad you are among people who are indeed willing to debate your claims instead of just banning you outright. I've followed your threads and posts with some interest and so far you have been given considerable leeway almost certainly because your ideas are interesting but the blatant supernatural them of your claims in this thread are not part of this forums intent.

[Moontanman]

My buddy pulled off a great joke for the silly Y2K doom and gloomers. He invited people to his house for a party. At midnight he snuck outside and listed for the revelers doing the countdown 5 4 3 2 1. Then he pulled the main power to the house. Thought I had to wait till 2038 for another Y2K laugh. Guess I only have to wait to 2012.

 

That is a great prank stereo, I bet there was some soiled pants in that group!

[lemit]

I just tried to read the original post of this thread. It's pretty tough to read. I couldn't quite see what the "genuine Astrology" was except that it involved lots of "energy." Funny, astronomy involves a lot of energy too. I believe I remember from my unscientific background that pretty much everything is energy on levels with much less exotic names than those in the OP. Maybe astrologers should start from an understanding of astronomy and then move on to those spatial relations based on a penumbral sky, if they can.

 

What is this thread doing in a science site?

 

--lemit

[freeztar]

What is this thread doing in a science site?

It's getting thoroughly debunked. ;)

Also, take note that it is in the "Strange Claims" forum, which is reserved for threads that are unscientific (posing to be scientific) or threads that are so strange (yet have bits of good science) that they belong in strange claims.

 

FWIW, I did quite a bit of study on Meso-American Archaeoastronomy for a college course on Cosmology. Venus was very important to the Maya ("Mayans" is a misnomer). Some scholarly texts suggest that the Maya were able to predict weather and crop cycles based on Venus. My research on this showed that there was likely no predictive power based on observations of Venus (for which they were well adept).

 

I posted the paper a while back if anyone is interested:

http://hypography.com/forums/astronomy-and-cosmology/16218-venus-the-dancing-queen.html?highlight=venus+dancing+queen

 

Based on this, along with a healthy dose of common sense, it seems highly unlikely that the Maya predicted either an end of the world or a new age of blossoming kindness throughout humanity.

 

As has been shown in this thread, the date represents the start of a new Baktun. The mythology is interesting, but as important as it was for the Maya, it is equally unimportant for us today outside of the contexts of history and anthropology, imho.