Assessing Terrorist Threats

[Rebiu]

Turning a blind eye

If they have been reported missing I would say that the blind eye has not been turned. Have you considered that these people were possible investigated before the got their Visas. You have no idea what measures have been taken to find them either.

and/or being nice doesn't eliminate the threat.. :)

Nothing can eliminate a threat of this nature. In many ways being nice comes closer than the alternative. I would be more trusting of a mid east student then a former Guantanamo detainee who was tortured for years and denied due process.

[CraigD]

According to the 14th, they have rights to protection and due process. But, first, they have to enter legally to be free to seek life, liberty, etc. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Non-citizens are guaranteed by the Constitution to many, but not all, of the immunities and protections guaranteed citizens.

 

The Constitution is explicit in distinguishing between “citizens of the United States” and “citizens or subjects of any foreign state”, and clear that both are “persons”. Therefore, when language such as that in Amendment XIV states: “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States” it is referring only to US citizens, but when it states: “nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” it is referring to both US citizens and non-citizens.

 

There is no Constitutional provision to deny any person, even a non-citizen who has entered the country illegally, of due process of law. Only after such process has been observed may they – or a US citizen - be deprived of anything guaranteed “to the People.”

[HydrogenBond]

I htink the way terrorist threats are assessed by culture is out of touch with reality. In a world of billions of people, there are maybe 10-50,000 terrorists. It is logistically impossible for them, even on a optimum day, to assult but a tiny fraction of targets. Yet they are treated like a billion man army that is capable of striking everything, ready to start WW3.

 

If one puts things in perspective, the world armies are like a football team and the terrorist like kindergarden kids. If the will was there, the winner of this battle is very ovious. But without the will or with the handicaps of international law, on is tied up on the sofa, imagining the little tikes sneaking up on you when you nap and clubing you with a bat. Since this is a possible (but unlikely) threat, nobody is allowed to nap and all bats must be accounted for as though every kindergarden child has this on their minds.

 

One may even come up with scenarios of the kindergarden kids mixing special chemical agents. Although this is way beyond them, by teaching them via the collective paranoier, we give them the idea and the method. Then we say, they are smarter than we thought. We must now think of other things to prepare (teaching them new ideas in the process).

[Freddy]

Don't hurt me. (Did I just get shouted at by an admin?)

 

According to the 14th, they have rights to protection and due process. But, first, they have to enter legally to be free to seek life, liberty, etc. Am I wrong?

 

Every person, citizen and non-citizen, within the US is given rights as Craig pointed out above. That said, illegal aliens are subject to US immigration laws which can deport illegal aliens only after an immigration/deportation hearing. That is due process. The government cannot just go and pick up illegals on the street and fly them back across our borders. It is the same with US citizens. When arrested a citizen/non-citizen must be brought before a judge within a reasonable period of time for a hearing to see if there is probable cause to hold the arrested person. Due process is what keeps the US from becoming a police state where people are locked up without charges. But Guantanamo seems to be different with most there not being charged. Is that because those held there were captured/arrested on foreign soil?

[Rebiu]

I htink the way terrorist threats are assessed by culture is out of touch with reality. In a world of billions of people, there are maybe 10-50,000 terrorists.

Interesting us of statistical analysis. Given you post bugbearing Statistics as being in conflict with causal relationships I am surprised you are so willing to risk their use. Perhaps you could cite a source for this information as well as a consistent definition of terrorism so you will not accidentally spin you argument by providing false or misleading figures.

If one puts things in perspective, the world armies are like a football team and the terrorist like kindergarden kids. If the will was there, the winner of this battle is very ovious. But without the will or with the handicaps of international law, on is tied up on the sofa, imagining the little tikes sneaking up on you when you nap and clubing you with a bat. Since this is a possible (but unlikely) threat, nobody is allowed to nap and all bats must be accounted for as though every kindergarden child has this on their minds.

That is the worst analogy I have even heard. You are comparing the organization the drove Israel out of Lebanon to kindergarteners with bats? You are comparing the United state military that twice crushed the military forces of Iraq in weeks to a football team. Then you suggest that football teams easily win a battle against kindergarteners with bats.

 

The whole point of terrorism is not to engage in a force on force battle. It is called asymmetric conflict and a football team is not the way to stop kindergarten batmurderes.

[Southtown]

READ YOUR CONSTITUTION!!! All people in the United States, even non-citizens, even illegal aliens, even illegal aliens who rape mothers and young children while committing mass murder while high on crack, have the rights guarenteed within the Constitution.

Don't hurt me. (Did I just get shouted at by an admin?)

 

According to the 14th, they have rights to protection and due process. But, first, they have to enter legally to be free to seek life, liberty, etc. Am I wrong?

[Southtown]

Yes, you are wrong. Non-citizens are guaranteed by the Constitution to many, but not all, of the immunities and protections guaranteed citizens.

 

The Constitution is explicit in distinguishing between “citizens of the United States” and “citizens or subjects of any foreign state”, and clear that both are “persons”. Therefore, when language such as that in Amendment XIV states: “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States” it is referring only to US citizens, but when it states: “nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law” it is referring to both US citizens and non-citizens.

 

There is no Constitutional provision to deny any person, even a non-citizen who has entered the country illegally, of due process of law. Only after such process has been observed may they – or a US citizen - be deprived of anything guaranteed “to the People.”

OK, I stand corrected, sorry.

 

The point is that these Egyptians are not free to do whatever they want to simply because they now inhabit a 'free country'. They merely have the right to due process, which is exactly why they are sought, correct? Their visas have been revoked and they are now illegal immigrants.

 

Therefore, I do not agree with Eclogite that they should be allowed to roam about the United States unfettered. He doesn't yet acknowledge that their not reporting to campus nullifies their right to be here.

[Eclogite]

Americans welcome people from all nations who enter the US legally.

I believe you missed the point I was making. I singled out the behaviour of the US immigration services. I enter the US once or twice a year and have been doing so for many years. Occasionally I am greeted with a smile and a smooth passage. More commonly I am gratuitously abused by individuals hysterically instructing me to ensure I have placed my exact intended address on my entry form, or subject to a suite of invasive questions asked with an air of contempt and distrust.

Likewise I have often had colleagues held overnight for the simple offense of carrying a passport from a Middle Eastern country.

I do not consider these to be welcoming actions.

Therefore, I do not agree with Eclogite that they should be allowed to roam about the United States unfettered. He doesn't yet acknowledge that their not reporting to campus nullifies their right to be here.

And you persist in ignoring a couple of points.

The presumption seems to have been that they were potentially up to no good. There seems to have been no interest in the possibility that they were in trouble. (Another example of the welcoming behaviour of the US?:) )

 

And are you seriously stating that having entered the US to attend that course that is the only place they could visit? So visitors to the US may not roam unfettered over the country? I was wholly unaware of this.:doh: I feel it is my duty as a responsible world citizen to advise you that my daughter, who entered the US legally to work as a counsellor at a summer camp in Maine, is presently roaming New England en route to Montreal. Perhaps you can contact the appropriate authorities and have her tracked down.

[Southtown]

And you persist in ignoring a couple of points.

The presumption seems to have been that they were potentially up to no good. There seems to have been no interest in the possibility that they were in trouble. (Another example of the welcoming behaviour of the US?:) )

 

And are you seriously stating that having entered the US to attend that course that is the only place they could visit? So visitors to the US may not roam unfettered over the country? I was wholly unaware of this.:doh: I feel it is my duty as a responsible world citizen to advise you that my daughter, who entered the US legally to work as a counsellor at a summer camp in Maine, is presently roaming New England en route to Montreal. Perhaps you can contact the appropriate authorities and have her tracked down.

1) The fact that presumption is all that the authorities have to go on is the reason the students are being searched for. The goal is to go beyond presumption and find out exactly what the situation is.

 

2) The exchange students were supposed to report to campus upon arrival to the US. If they had done that, they would still have visas and be able to go wherever.

[Freddy]

1) The fact that presumption is all that the authorities have to go on is the reason the students are being searched for. The goal is to go beyond presumption and find out exactly what the situation is.

 

2) The exchange students were supposed to report to campus upon arrival to the US. If they had done that, they would still have visas and be able to go wherever.

 

That is exactly the point. Once the 11 students failed to report to the school they violated their visas. In the past these violations were overlooked. After 911 this country cannot afford to overlook immigration and visa violations. If any non-US citizen does not like the way the US runs its immigration policy then go somewhere else!

[Eclogite]

If any non-US citizen does not like the way the US runs its immigration policy then go somewhere else!

Regretably this would interfere with my ability to make a substantial annual contribution to the US economy. Would you like me to withdraw my efforts on your behalf?

[InfiniteNow]

:phones: