Do we roll the dice with salvation?

[stanleyg]

Do we roll the dice with salvation and wager that salvation is a myth or do we play it safe to cast our lots on Christ? If we were to roll and lose, then the wager would be extremely costly. Here, take the dice! It's your roll.

[InfiniteNow]

Do I get 72 virgins if I roll snake eyes? What happens if I roll 11?

[Pyrotex]

Do we roll the dice with salvation and wager that salvation is a myth or do we play it safe to cast our lots on Christ? If we were to roll and lose, then the wager would be extremely costly. Here, take the dice! It's your roll.

This is just DeCarte's Wager. It's been around for at least 300 years.

 

And the conclusion that it is critically flawed has been around nearly as long.

 

The wager only offers two selections. This is an arbitrary and unwarranted limitation of the problem. What if salvation is by Buddha or Vishnu or Siva or Isis? DeCarte ignored those possibilities. What if it IS by Christ--whose interpretation of Christ are you going to use? The Catholic Church? Methodists? Baptists? Christian Scientists? Mormons? Holy Rollers?

 

The wager is flawed in that it assumes there is NO cost to siding with Christ. Not true. Being in any religion costs plenty in time and money. And in integrity--believing many dogmas requires that you engage in play-pretend, or that you even damage your ability to think and use logic. Some churches carry this so far that its members can reasonably said to be mentally damaged or even irrational.

 

And what if salvation winds up being an eternal slave in somebody else's paradise? What if the gods lie? What if the gods play hideous jokes on humans for their own amusement?

 

What if you could have become a great statesman, businessman or scientiest, and done something to save humanity--but you threw it all away to become a groveling, bowing, tithing, syncophant to a pulpit master?

[CraigD]

This is just DeCarte's Wager. It's been around for at least 300 years.

The opportunity to catch Pyrotex in a rare error concerning matters theological is irresistible! :D It’s Pascal’s wager, not Descarte’s.

 

Other than the philosopher, I think the rest of the post is right on. :)

[Mercedes Benzene]

Doesn't it make sense to have faith in something?

I think it's better to go through your life actually believing in God and salvation and all that jazz...

If you do believe in such things, I think that you would live a much happier prosperous life...

...because you know that...

 

If you do believe:

1.) If it is true... you are granted eternal salvation.

2.) If it isn't true... then you just die along with everyone else

 

If you don't believe:

1.) If it is true... you go to hell

2.) If it isn't true... then you just die along with everyone else

 

Doesn't it make sense that you believe in God, and cover all your bases??

It seems to me that you have nothing to lose...

 

 

Just my ideas. :)

[ughaibu]

Your idea could be reworded as "it's better to go through your life actually believing in the devil and damnation and all that jazz". I dont see why such a belief would be expected to lead to a "much happier prosperous life".

[Mercedes Benzene]

Your idea could be reworded as "it's better to go through your life actually believing in the devil and damnation and all that jazz". I dont see why such a belief would be expected to lead to a "much happier prosperous life".

 

Knowing that you could still "live" once you die? That would make me happier.

 

It's all opinion... just like everything else.

[Edella]

Doesn't it make sense to have faith in something?

I think it's better to go through your life actually believing in God and salvation and all that jazz...

If you do believe in such things, I think that you would live a much happier prosperous life...

...because you know that...

 

If you do believe:

1.) If it is true... you are granted eternal salvation.

2.) If it isn't true... then you just die along with everyone else

 

If you don't believe:

1.) If it is true... you go to hell

2.) If it isn't true... then you just die along with everyone else

 

Doesn't it make sense that you believe in God, and cover all your bases??

It seems to me that you have nothing to lose...

 

 

Just my ideas. :)

 

Oh,but you do have something to lose,and it would be hard to cover all your bases,imo.I wrote something earlier about Pascal's Wager:http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/6887-bible-word-god-6.html#post115926

Tell me what you think.

 

Cheers,

Ed

[Mercedes Benzene]

Yup! You and everyone else make excellent points.

Once again, it does, and always will come down to personal preference.

There is no point in arguing with anyone if they want to be stubborn and refuse to believe what you want.

 

Christians will always fight with Christians.

Christians will always fight with Muslims.

Muslims will always fight with Jews.

Jews will always fight with Muslims.

Jews will always fight with Christians

Muslims will always fight will Christians

Atheists will fight with everyone....

 

...the list goes on and on until all the different religions are covered.

And, everyone will always fight with everyone else on the topic of religion until someone is proven right.

If God decides to come down and announce that he's gonna end the world, then we'll all know.

 

But otherwise, there is no point in trying to convince anyone of anything that they don't already believe in.

 

People are stubborn.

[Mercedes Benzene]

Wikipedia sums up this argument nicely if anyone wants to check it out.

 

They even include a rationale chart that puts everything in a nice, organized manner.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

[IDMclean]

Here's my wager.

 

Screw "believing" in god, and Screw "pretending" to be.

 

I am that I am and I know the truth that is me. In the end, only one person will judge me and I know who that is.

 

It's not about believing in this or that god, though you can spin it that way, and can make that assumeption. I'd bet it wouldn't come out as one thinks.

 

Heaven and Hell are a cop-out, so you don't have to take responsibility here and now. this being subjective view, it is of course my humble opinion and you can take it or leave it.

 

In short, you can't count on some deity in some indistict, undefinable dimension. God helps those who help themselves. Rather than placing everything on one bet, I choose to look for the common points and eliminate the extra stuff.

 

There are certain things which one can be fairly certain are the rules so to speak. Do not kill (ahimsa), do not lie, do not steal, do not rape, pillage or plunder. Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Do what thou will, but do no harm (ahimsa).

 

Seek what the great ones before you sought.

 

Divisions are the creation of the mind.

 

"God does not play dice."

 

I place my wager in humanity. In hope and the very priniciples of Truth, Freedom, and Love. God is a middle man, for those who don't recognize the spark within. However, if god is truth, then I guess I place my wager in god as well, now don't I?

 

-The eightfold fool.

KickAssClown

[Pyrotex]

The opportunity to catch Pyrotex in a rare error concerning matters theological is irresistible! ;) It’s ...Pascal’s wager, not Descarte’s....

:lol: Thank you CraigD. :) Good catch! Keep me honest.

[Pyrotex]

Doesn't it make sense to have faith in something?...If you do believe:

1.) If it is true... you are granted eternal salvation....

Well, consider that point 1. above is not necessarily true.

Just "believing that a god exists" is not gonna get you saved.

You have to believe in the RIGHT god, and you have to believe the RIGHT way with the RIGHT rituals, and obey the RIGHT rules.

 

In the Church of Christ, they have all the RIGHT stuff, and they STILL claim that most members will go to hell anyway. It seems that god is very picky. If you believe just 99% the right way, it's still not enough.

 

Okay, let's assume you make it and you're saved. Now what? You're gonna spend eternity rubbing elbows with a god who created HELL, a place of eternal torment for individuals who were:

= born in the wrong place,

= born at the wrong time,

= born in the wrong culture,

= born in the wrong religion,

= born in the wrong family,

= never got the message.

 

Furthermore, in god's omnipotent wisdom, he KNEW these people would never have a chance at salvation anyway. Even when he created the Universe, he already KNEW who would be saved and who wouldn't. So, basically, you got a god here who created billions of people knowing they would be burned forever for no particular reason.

 

Is THIS the kind of sadistic deity you want to hang out with??

[Saitia]

Well, consider that point 1. above is not necessarily true.

Just "believing that a god exists" is not gonna get you saved.

You have to believe in the RIGHT god, and you have to believe the RIGHT way with the RIGHT rituals, and obey the RIGHT rules.

No, you don't.

You simply have to have faith in God as best you may conceive him.

Why waste your time pointing to some ridiculous creed of man that you know in your mind and (should) know in your heart is bullshit?

In the Church of Christ, they have all the RIGHT stuff, and they STILL claim that most members will go to hell anyway. It seems that god is very picky. If you believe just 99% the right way, it's still not enough.

I doubt anyone in the "Church of Christ" would claim they're authorized by God to speak for Him about the existence of hell, or who is going there. If they do make such a claim, I say they're obviously full of it, and you probably know it too. Most clear-thinking individuals reason out that an all-loving and all-merciful God— by definition— could never create such a crass contradiction of his divine nature as hell obviously is. Hell belongs on the historical trash heap of erroneous ideas. Stop flogging the dead horse if you can.

 

 

 

Okay, let's assume you make it and you're saved. Now what? You're gonna spend eternity rubbing elbows with a god who created HELL, a place of eternal torment for individuals who were:

= born in the wrong place,

= born at the wrong time,

= born in the wrong culture,

= born in the wrong religion,

= born in the wrong family,

= never got the message.

 

Furthermore, in god's omnipotent wisdom, he KNEW these people would never have a chance at salvation anyway. Even when he created the Universe, he already KNEW who would be saved and who wouldn't. So, basically, you got a god here who created billions of people knowing they would be burned forever for no particular reason.

 

Is THIS the kind of sadistic deity you want to hang out with??

Your point is a good one— if such an absurd contradiction actually existed. It never did.

God didn't create a hell; man did. The rejection of eternal life preciptates the more logically consistent equivalent to the idea of hell, but it's not eternal punishment, it's the inevitable result of free will choice: eternal cessation of existence.

 

Yes, an omnipotent God knows who will be saved and who will not, and although predestination is involved in such foreknowledge, personal freewill is not abrogated. Personal beings are gifted with freewill choice, and this power, although relative in time, is still absolute in eternity.

 

Cheers,

—Saitia

[Edella]

[To Pyrotex]Why waste your time pointing to some ridiculous creed of man that you know in your mind and (should) know in your heart is bullshit?

Pyrotex is more than capable of defending himself,but I think this is just plain rude.How do you know what is in Pyro's heart or mind?And rather than just calling this "creed" bullshit,why not tell us why you think it is.

 

I doubt anyone in the "Church of Christ" would claim they're authorized by God to speak for Him about the existence of hell

And then:

God didn't create a hell; man did.

Why are Church of Christ members not authorized to speak for (God) about the existence of hell,yet you can freely speak of it's non-existence?Can you site Scripture to back this up?The Scriptures declare that those who die without CHRIST AS THEIR SAVIOR WILL DIE A SECOND DEATH as well as a first death.

 

BTW why did you put quotes around "Church of Christ?"Are you not a fan?

 

Most clear-thinking individuals reason out that an all-loving and all-merciful God— by definition— could never create such a crass contradiction of his divine nature as hell obviously is.

As far as I'm aware,most Christians believe in Hell.While there is no dominant view of Hell, two particular perspectives are popular.According to the Barna Group, four out of ten American adults believe that Hell is "a state of eternal separation from God’s presence" (39%) and one-third (32%) says it is "an actual place of torment and suffering where people’s souls go after death."I guess 32% of Americans are not clear - thinking.

Just "believing that a god exists" is not gonna get you saved.You have to believe in the RIGHT god, and you have to believe the RIGHT way with the RIGHT rituals, and obey the RIGHT rules.

No, you don't.

You simply have to have faith in God as best you may conceive him

By that logic Osama Bin Laden goes to Heaven,and any person throughout history who has had faith in any of the myriad of conceived gods gets to go to Heaven.I thought Salvation revolved around Jesus Christ for Christians.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Ed

[IDMclean]

creed of man

 

An established religious orginization is not the religion itself. The bible itself warns of false prophets and those who would speak in the stead of god.

 

Keeping in mind that this is a science forum, there is clearly no emperical evidence that hell and heaven are anything other than the creations of human minds through out the ages. There never has, and likely never will be a person who has been to hell or heaven and returned to tell about it. Let alone returned with irrefutable proof of their existence.

 

What a person has written, in my opinion, does not qualify as emperical evidence, expecially as most accounts are second hand at best.

[Saitia]

Pyrotex is more than capable of defending himself,but I think this is just plain rude.

 

"Defending himself" from what? Rather than just calling my comments rude, why not tell "us" why you think they are.

How do you know what is in Pyro's heart or mind?

He speaks his mind freely;

I didn't say I knew what was in his heart. :Alien:

 

And rather than just calling this "creed" bullshit,why not tell us why you think it is.

"Us"? Is someone there with you, Ed? :doh:

Do you believe in Hell? I didn't think so.

I believe you already quoted me correctly about why I think hell is bullshit, but I'll repost it for you:

"Most clear-thinking individuals reason out that an all-loving and all-merciful God— by definition— could never create such a crass contradiction of his divine nature as hell obviously is."

 

 

 

Why are Church of Christ members not authorized to speak for (God) about the existence of hell,yet you can freely speak of it's non-existence?

 

Are you serious? I'm speaking for myself, just as you are, despite your editorial "us." I don't believe any human being is "authorized [by God] to speak for God." Do you? :Alien:

 

 

Can you site Scripture to back this up?

 

What authority do you think "Scripture" has to back up my assertion?

 

 

BTW why did you put quotes around "Church of Christ?"Are you not a fan?

 

To indicate a quote, silly.:Alien:

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pryotex

Just "believing that a god exists" is not gonna get you saved.You have to believe in the RIGHT god, and you have to believe the RIGHT way with the RIGHT rituals, and obey the RIGHT rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saitia

No, you don't.

You simply have to have faith in God as best you may conceive him

By that logic Osama Bin Laden goes to Heaven,and any person throughout history who has had faith in any of the myriad of conceived gods gets to go to Heaven.I thought Salvation revolved around Jesus Christ for Christians.

You're certainly entitled to your thoughts about Christians, who goes to "Heaven," and everything else; did you have a point?

 

Cheerz,

—Saitia