Edella Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 The U.S.Senate opened debate Monday on a constitutional amendment that would allow Congress to prohibit desecration of the flag.Opponents and proponents of the amendment agree that it appears to be within one vote of securing the two-thirds majority required.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/washington/27cong.html As I was reading this,I realized I have no idea what laws other nations may have in regards to flag desecration,if any.Can anyone enlighten me? Turtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 The U.S.Senate opened debate Monday on a constitutional amendment that would allow Congress to prohibit desecration of the flag.Opponents and proponents of the amendment agree that it appears to be within one vote of securing the two-thirds majority required....As I was reading this,I realized I have no idea what laws other nations may have in regards to flag desecration,if any.Can anyone enlighten me? :( What a waste of our resources! I don't know the facts on other countrys' flag desecration laws, but I'll wager they have none;moreover when they hear about this they will RBFLTAO or STHID (Shaking Their Heads In Dumb-foundment):hihi: Ammendening the Constitution requires not only approval by Congress, but then ratification by at least 37 States. How many millions of dollars are these people going to waste that might otherwise provide healthcare, housing, or education to those in need!?:) Write you Representatives & Senators & tell them to knock off this kind of irrelevant legislation & start doing the real work we voted them into office for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond -SC2- Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I dont think we need a law but I think we could perhaps take after part of the Muslim society referring to drawing Muhammad and just kill people who do it. simple enough and it is something that some people would understand..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Amazing. We (South Africa) don't have any laws intended to curb flag desecration - we do the whole "Freedom of Speech" bit over here. Have they actually considered the fact that an unenforcable law is pointless? This would be like passing a law against kids stepping on sidewalk cracks. Dumbfounded, all right... Chacmool 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 The day they pass that amendment I'll burn a flag in protest - God Bless America, Land of the Free!!! Turtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Write your Senators & Representatives; exercise you democratic rights. Here is the text of my note to my US Senators from Washington State:Dear Senator (Murray/Cantwell), Please vote against the flag burning legislation; it is a waste of taxpayer money & a distraction from more important issues like getting us out of Iraq, health care for our citizens, & controlling immigration to name a few.Thank you for your time,Signature PS Find your own Senators' & Rpresentatives' E-mail addresses here:http://www.house.gov/http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfmThe price of Freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Done, both Lautenberg and Menendez have just been sent e-mails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 The United States flag is supposed to be treated like you would a living thing. It has a great deal of tradition and protocol attahced to it because of the reverance people felt (feel?) for that which it represents. Here is a link to everything you ever wanted to know about the flag. http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/flag2.htm The "Flag Code" was first created in 1923, and then modified in 1924. This code was unofficial and was created by a consortium of several groups to standardize the way the flag was flown and handled. It was adopted by Congress in 1942. In the 1980's group who had nothing better to do with teir time than go around mocking traditions purposfully broke these laws simply to challenge them at the Supreme Court. They won their case in 1989. The Congress passed another flag law in 1989 after the ruling came down. This was removed by the Supreme Court in 1990. At the same time there were (I believe) 36 state laws regarding desecration of the US Flag. It is worthy to note that it is proper to burn a flag at the end of its useful life. When a flag is old and tattered or has been damaged you are supposed to burn it with dignity to dispose of it - as opposed to throwing it in the trash. Protection of the flag has always been a popular issue. People historically have been in favor of laws protecting the flag from desecration. When the Supreme Court ruled that burning a flag was a freedom of speech issue, they in effect said that there is no ability to make laws to protect something as being sacred. Even the very symbol of freedom is subject to the whims of those who would use their freedom simply to **** on the symbol. For those who wish to oppose the US there are plenty of outlets for "Free Speach" to make you message heard that do not include desecratoin of the flag. While this may be a restriction of behavior, it is not a restriction of free speech. It is my opinioin that the court ruled incorrectly both times in holding that flag burning is the same as speech. But then again I guess nothing says it more clearly than a good symbolic burning - be it flag or cross. Enjoy your good company. Bill BluesMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I love the USA, I am proud of the american government system, even when I'm not proud of the current incarnation. I would not want to burn the flag, because it would be destroying a symbol of something that I think is great. However, I think that it should not be against the law, especially against the Constitution, to do so. Our nation was founded out of dissent, and we must acknowledge that fact, that we need to allow dissent, in every way that does not harm another. Burning the flag is disrespectful to America, and a great display of one of America's ideals. Boerseun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I love the USA, I am proud of the american government system, even when I'm not proud of the current incarnation. I would not want to burn the flag, because it would be destroying a symbol of something that I think is great. However, I think that it should not be against the law, especially against the Constitution, to do so. Our nation was founded out of dissent, and we must acknowledge that fact, that we need to allow dissent, in every way that does not harm another. Burning the flag is disrespectful to America, and a great display of one of America's ideals.It is significant to note that the Amendment does not make it illegal to burn the flag. It simply allows the congress and the States to pass laws if they choose to do so. There is a significant distinction there. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 The United States flag is supposed to be treated like you would a living thing. ... :) Therin lies a serious problem. What other inamimate things shall we demand by law are "like living things"? Pencil holders, paper weights, bias-ply tires? Anything with the American flag? :) What living things do we compare to? Puppies? Rats? Bacteria?:eek2: Do we have nothing more important to employ our elected officials' time?:) I know the Flag Rules better than most & see them violated more often than not. Olympic athletes draping themselves in the flag for example is majorly against the rules.:)BigDog's link:http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/flag2.htm The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. Bunting of blue, white, and red can be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of a platform, or for decoration in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 As is any use of the American flag in advertising, but come President's day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I have the Senate discussion on right now on CSpan. Good grief!:eek2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 :) Therin lies a serious problem. What other inamimate things shall we demand by law are "like living things"? Pencil holders, paper weights, bias-ply tires? Anything with the American flag? :) What living things do we compare to? Puppies? Rats? Bacteria?:eek2: Do we have nothing more important to employ our elected officials' time?:) I know the Flag Rules better than most & see them violated more often than not. Olympic athletes draping themselves in the flag for example is majorly against the rules.:)That line was paraphrased from one of the sites I read describing the intension of the code. It is not to be taken literally. The flag code points out in plain detail the do's and dont's of flag display. And in our zest for patriotic displays we are very often not following the code. It is not advocating the elevation of an inanimate objects to the inherent rights of a human or even an animal. When the laws were on the books they were not hurting anyone. The activists who chose to rub it in the nose of the majority by to publicly defying the laws to force them off of the books, instead of living peacefully with a law that had no impact on anyone's life were the first to ring up wasted time on this issue. Now when that majority seeks to reestablish the legislative rights stolen by a bad supreme court decision that majority is to blame for taking the moral stand? Was it not another moral stand that put all of this into motion? Where is the outrage at the people who desecrated the flag in the 80's for the sole purpose of bringing the case to the supreme court? What did that act of greed cost? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 That line was paraphrased from one of the sites I read describing the intension of the code. It is not to be taken literally. ... Where is the outrage at the people who desecrated the flag in the 80's for the sole purpose of bringing the case to the supreme court? What did that act of greed cost? BillNot to be taken literally? Ok....Outrage at people exercising their rights under the Constitution....OK.... My outrage is that the Senate is even considering altering the US Constitution in an unprecedented manner. Other than the Ammendment outlawing slavery, NO Ammendment seeks or succeeds to limit individual behavior.The map is not the territory; the flag is not the Nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Bill, I appreciate your position here. But I think the issue is not about whether it's good or bad to burn the flag or whatever the case might be, I think the issue here is that the US is now considering passing a law making illegal an unpolicable deed. Now - if someone does something 'wrong' with the flag that might count as desecration, will the authorities turn a blind eye? They can't, really, because they have just now passed a law and they have to show they're serious. So, what to do? Clog the courts with bullshit cases about people setting fire to a rag? They didn't 'burn' the country down, they burnt something symbolizing the country down. It's a physical expression of someone saying "f*ck America". It comes down to exactly the same thing. But to be consistent, the US should then pass a law making the utterance of this and similar terms illegal. And how to police that, pray tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigDog Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Here is the complete text of the proposed amendment... The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States. Does it say anything about desecration being illegal? Does it say anything about restricting freedoms? It says that the legeslature has the right to pass laws regarding desecration of the flag. What those laws are is determined by the elected representatives. These laws WERE on the books for over 40 years. And the courts were hardly swamped with cases. They were in fact very rarely ever enforced. In order to be charged to even get the laws tested in court the activists had do the burning in the most public manner, giving notice ahead of time of what they were going to do and daring the police to ignore the act. I personally think the amendment is a bad idea. The Constitution should not be so specific. It is a document intended for much broader issues. I would prefer that one of the states pass a Flag desecration law, arrest somebody for it, and let the Supreme Court rule on it. Again and again and again... until they come to their senses and find that desecration of the flag is not in fact a form of free speech. What is funny about this is that when I was kid I always thought that nobody could actually own a US Flag. That the US Flag was always the property of the government. And since it was the property of the government you had to treat it by their rules. And that is why it was illegal to treat the flag outside the rules. I still think of it that way to a degree, even though now I know better. The Flag is representative of the whole of the country, its land, its people and its history. And it is shared property, shared by myself and the rest of the citizens of the United States. I would no sooner desecrate the Flag than I would litter the forest or a lake or any part of nature that is also the shared property of all the citizens. And that is my reasoning for my reverence for the Flag. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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