Chaos Theory, Sick Society and You

[Zythryn]

If you were artificially birthed in a hospital with drug assists; then immediately separated from your mother; bottle fed; left alone will sleeping and alone when awake; your dad divorced your ma, or away at work all day and hardly saw you; you would be one sick puppy - also known as the average western child.

 

I take offense at the tone of this MM. If you are stating that everyone raised in the way you list above is a 'sick puppy', I strongly disagree.

 

I fit your description, and I like to think of myself as a very kind, decent person. My wife and friends would agree.

Likewise my brother (also raised in such conditions) is also a very decent person and great example of a great human being.

 

On average, most people I know are also very good people. Since you indicate the norm for western children is to be 'sick puppies' I can only assume you have a strong bias against western children??

[MagnetMan]

I take offense at the tone of this MM. If you are stating that everyone raised in the way you list above is a 'sick puppy', I strongly disagree.

 

I was raised the same way Zee. I ended up with half a brain, like everybody else. I meant no offence. I did not say anybody was a bad person. Sick is relative. All moderns have some degree of hang-ups, due to the parenting limitations and social pressures I mentioned. If you are completely free of those, that would be a modern marvel. Above that, your full genius potential lies latent, the State never brought it out and never can, for it does not recognize the importance of right brain training.

[IDMclean]

I must ask another question, in the hopes of re-analysis.

 

How do you define the past? Was it something to be yearned for, a lost mythic age? Or was it a time of trial and error, where many advancements were made along side many more failures?

 

I personally look back at history and see something that, while I should learn from, was very nasty and would have made a quick end to me personally. I agree with good parental practices, however I don't subscribe to many of the veiws of that past.

 

I was born on August the 15th in Enloe Hospitial, while my mother was on her side, at 9:26am. My mother had no pain killers and only one other birth to her name. I have been in and out of school for pretty much my entire life, sanctioned school that is. My father has been distant and the few times that I've chosen to live with him were very unpleasant. My mother did not marry, nor will she ever, because my father was an incompatible person. though caring in his own ways he was stuck in his hurts and unable to improve.

 

My mother provided for me, emotionally, socially, mentally and for the time that it was needed, physically.

 

Admittedly I am a fractured mind at best, however the fracturing is minimal from my mother, mostly I would attribute it to two sources. One would be the general school system, those were some of the worst years of my life. Two would be my father himself, as he was an unstable and aggressive person.

 

This is to say that the house was not safe with my father in it, but quiet the oppisite, he made it dangerous and my mother recognized this and attempted to keep me safe from it. The only times I have ever lived with my father were when I asked to live with him, and each request is one that I almost regret.

 

I have a decent grasp on history and in my view the mythic past is just that, mythic, a fictional creation of those afraid of what the future holds. Not to say it didn't have it's merits but that my studies show me that it was bad, and it has gotten better.

 

However it is exactly in the idea of "finishing" advancement that I disagree with deMause. I can't see the details of the questions but I know that further answers lie ahead of those of the future.

[Michaelangelica]

If you were homeschooled until after puberty, then all stigmas would be due to some defect in parenting and the home environment.

 

If you were naturally birthed, breast-fed and kept in close body contact with your mother in a secure home environment (ie father present in the home) until weaned, and then went to state school from kindergarten onwards, the arise of any stigmas must be contributions of the state

 

If you were artificially birthed in a hospital with drug assists; then immediately separated from your mother; bottle fed; left alone will sleeping and alone when awake; your dad divorced your ma, or away at work all day and hardly saw you; you would be one sick puppy - also known as the average western child.

 

If you were home schooled until after puberty, by just your parents, you could also be a very socially inept person.

Probably a very sick puppy socially.

(recent research has 'shown' that MS appears less in babies and children who are exposed to other babies and children at birth- so your home-schooled kid could be also be missing out in the Immune System department too!)

 

A lot of people are "'breast-fed and kept in close body contact with your mother"

This is probably the norm.

Certainly, the huge importance of touch, was not fully scientifically realised until about 35 years ago when some Psychologist (Maslow??) did his experiments on maternal bonding in young monkeys.

I know I had to fight to be able to touch my very premi. baby in a humidicrib 26 years ago.

 

"If you were artificially. . etc . . " are all negatives it is true

However it is amazing how resilient humans are. You can't say if just because these things happen at birth you will end up with a 'sick' person.

And how are you defining "sick"? Sixty eight % of us live within one standard deviation from the mean

"Sick" psychologically is a very relative term. One is only sick in a societal context.

What is "sick", for one society is not "sick" in another.

Just as IQ is what IQ tests test; a lot of pathology can be the same.

Who decides who is sick the person, or the society, or both?

 

I guess you are male or have not given birth.

There is the old joke about if human biology was somehow organised so that the role of child-bearer was taken alternatively- the woman first gives birth, then the male, then the female, then the male etc

Then we know that there would never be any more than three children in any family.:D

 

Few moms, in my experience, want to take drugs at childbirth but sometimes they might be medically necessary.

Natural birth is great but it is not for everybody

 

I assume you are a member of your local Nursing Mother's Association who help young women with breast feeding problems and

I assume you boycott Nestle and other companies who promote formula feeding in 3rd world countries.

[Michaelangelica]

I must ask another question, in the hopes of re-analysis.

 

 

My mother provided for me, emotionally, socially, mentally and for the time that it was needed, physically.

 

Admittedly I am a fractured mind at best, however the fracturing is minimal from my mother, mostly I would attribute it to two sources. One would be the general school system, those were some of the worst years of my life. Two would be my father himself, as he was an unstable and aggressive person.

 

This is to say that the house was not safe with my father in it, but quiet the opposite, he made it dangerous and my mother recognized this and attempted to keep me safe from it. The only times I have ever lived with my father were when I asked to live with him, and each request is one that I almost regret.

 

I have a decent grasp on history and in my view the mythic past is just that, mythic, a fictional creation of those afraid of what the future holds. Not to say it didn't have it's merits but that my studies show me that it was bad, and it has gotten better.

 

I am not sure what The Question was

 

Every age reinvests history if that is what you mean.

Have a look at the Philosophy of History on the web.

 

If you mean the personal past" ( even more subjective & unreliable) a wise man said "Sometimes you need to forgive the past."

 

Lots of people born in the 20C had fathers and grandfathers screwed up by war and pestilence. It was not uncommon, you are not alone there. Men rarely go for help when mentally ill. A depressed male often turns to the bottle and/or aggression.

 

How did your mother comfort you physically?

--

[questor]

Why are we to assume that all parents are mentally, emotionally, or intellectually equipped to home school? i personally know many people i wouldn't want teaching my kids anything. this is not a defense of public schooling which is an admitted disaster. also, since there is only a 50-50

chance a marriage will last and a great number of families are totally dysfunctional, why do we think a modern family will provide stability, love and

moral education?

[Zythryn]

Why are we to assume that all parents are mentally, emotionally, or intellectually equipped to home school? ...

why do we think a modern family will provide stability, love and

moral education?

 

A family will, mine definately did (ok, 2 out of 3 depending upon what you mean by stable). Will ALL families? No, definately not.

 

Is anyone assuming ALL parents are mentally, emotionally, or intellectually equiped to home school? I don't think very many people would argue that.

Some parents are I am sure, while others are not. My personal thoughts are that not many are, but again, I am sure some are.

 

Any arguement in which you go to absolutes breaks down very quickly. If you are referring to MM's statements, please forgive me as he does seem to refer to these same absolutes. In which case the above question is directed to him:)

[MagnetMan]

Any arguement in which you go to absolutes breaks down very quickly. If you are referring to MM's statements, please forgive me as he does seem to refer to these same absolutes.

 

I do tend to talk in generalities, thats true. But that is the way my psyche functions optimally. I sweep thousands of details into a central focus, pick out the most vital, and strategize from there. From my perspective that is the only way one can plan and win any war. When everything is broken down to accomodate every exception, endless minor squabbles and battles create so much dust one can hardly remember the original reason for going to war. So dust off your general's helmet (everyone has one) when discussing strategy with me and lets leave the tactics for the colonels, majors, captains and lieutenants to take care of.

 

Is anyone assuming ALL parents are mentally, emotionally, or intellectually equiped to home school? I don't think very many people would argue that.

Some parents are I am sure, while others are not. My personal thoughts are that not many are, but again, I am sure some are.

 

At this moment in time at least 50% of parents are officially listed as dysfunctional - at least that is what the divorce statistics indicate. That does not factor in how many spouses are secretly (or openly) cheating on their marriage, or how many are simply going through the motions. All of this impacts heavily on a developing child's psyche - and so if we look into the future, we see dysfunction looming exponentially. We brag on how resilient the human psyche is, and it truly is, but wear and tear without pausing for maintenance and upkeep, eventually brings the best machine to a grinding halt.

 

Then factor into the above all the social and economic pressures that force even the best parents to leave their children in state care for most of each day, and we are looking at a major war of recovery.

 

I would say we are lucky if we have 10% of truly commited parents in Western society that we can work with to get society back onto a healthy footing of strong family values. That is the army I am hoping to talk to and see if we can get both the mother and father back inside the home, so as to make sure we maintain a reservoir of healthy well-reared psyches to send into the future. If we can prove that the standards for healthy child rearing that I have outlined, whuch includes dual btrain training, produces bright, self-policed, caring and creative citizens, the rest of society will have a proven base from which to start a far more holistic system of child education than we have at present.

[Zythryn]

I do tend to talk in generalities, thats true. But that is the way my psyche functions optimally. I sweep thousands of details into a central focus, pick out the most vital, and strategize from there. From my perspective that is the only way one can plan and win any war. When everything is broken down to accomodate every exception, endless minor squabbles and battles create so much dust one can hardly remember the original reason for going to war. So dust off your general's helmet (everyone has one) when discussing strategy with me and lets leave the tactics for the colonels, majors, captains and lieutenants to take care of.

 

I think you are jumping the gun a bit. I think in some cases you are mixing up the generality with the exception. Doing this as a foundation means you will have a faulty solution if that solution is also to be applied to everyone.

 

At this moment in time at least 50% of parents are officially listed as dysfunctional - at least that is what the divorce statistics indicate. ...

I would say we are lucky if we have 10% of truly commited parents in Western society that we can work with to get society back onto a healthy footing of strong family values. ....

 

So you are stating that everyone that has divorced is dysfunctional? Would you also argue that any children who had divorced parents are dysfunctional?

 

I would not agree with the first, and if the second is also your opinion I would take you to task there as well.

 

Getting back to generalities, I would claim that society is fine. Most people are law abiding, decent human beings. True, a few exceptions can tarnish society, but as they are the exceptions and not the rule...

[IDMclean]

How did your mother comfort you physically?

When I was unable to grow outside of her, when I was to undeveloped to chew food or digest anything but mother's milk. In short before I was capable of taking care of myself. However it's also been important for me to get hugs and to have a shoulder to cry on.

 

How do you define the past? Was it something to be yearned for, a lost mythic age? Or was it a time of trial and error, where many advancements were made along side many more failures?

 

This would be my questions. I believe that "the good ol' times" don't exist. history has much to offer us, and for a time it was good. However by my standards and in the modern era I believe that which was good is no longer acceptable.

 

My mom has studied for her entire life, looking for that myth age, that my grandparents say exists and all she has found in her studies is that the mythic age does not exist, that society is day by day getting better.

 

As for the idea of the Mother/Father parental house hold? Good idea, if both parents are compatible. However in my case my father was incompatible, and it was best that he did not stay. In tribal cultures the man was not involved in the raising of children.

 

The father would provide food and clothing, and then he would set out once again with the band of hunters and they would go for more. Often the band of men would rove about and trade meat and furs for that which was gathered and made by the women, whom would settle into groups of gathers.

 

I would say we are lucky if we have 10% of truly commited parents in Western society that we can work with to get society back onto a healthy footing of strong family values.

 

This is making the assumetion that we were on a good footing in the first place, which isn't what I see in my studies. My dad is a prime example.

 

If we can prove that the standards for healthy child rearing that I have outlined, which includes dual brain training, produces bright, self-policed, caring and creative citizens, the rest of society will have a proven base from which to start a far more holistic system of child education than we have at present.

 

I agree with this part in whole. This is what my mother endevoured to do with me and my brother, alone. The only damage I feel I suffered was that of my father and taht of the school systems. The school systems endevoured to break me, like I was some stubborn stallion. My dad attempted to do the same. Neither succeeded, Like a beast I thrashed and I escaped the traps laid, not unscathed but free. I learned how to watch out for those traps in the future. I am thankful of my father's misdoings, because like so many failures in my life I have learned from them.

 

I would suggest a more holistic study of Sociology, Psychology, Anthropology, and History. The more angles you get on a given subject the closer you can get to finding the center, and the truth therein.

 

Again for those that do not know:

I follow the ideal that any idea or methodology has it's merit.

I believe that modern medicine has it's place. People used to die at rather alarming rates before the advent of the Modern Hospitial.

I believe that one has to train themselves to make a good parent, that just because you can perform a act of coupulation does not make you a good choice for raising children.

[MagnetMan]

I think you are jumping the gun a bit. I think in some cases you are mixing up the generality with the exception. Doing this as a foundation means you will have a faulty solution if that solution is also to be applied to everyone.

 

There are exceptions that further the aim of evolution and must therefore be applied to the general theorem.

The fundamental generality that I work from is that i see humankind as a single evolving consciousness. In this respect, what is good for one, must be good for all.

 

Individual idiosynchracies do not concern me, unless one happens to manifest an original creative thought. That only happens once in a blue moon.

 

This single human Being took birth in a Stone Age infancy and is graduating Age by Age towards a transcendental stage of Cosmic sagehood, which will happen sometime in the near uture, when our evolutionary cycle will end its phsyical manifestation. Children will no longer be born in that final Age. Right now we are nearing mid-cycle - we are in a predominantly rebellious teenage mode of independent self-determinations, teetering on the brink of self destruct with all kinds of weapons of mass madness, with only some of us aware of the next stage of young adulthood as respeoonsible global stewards. So, in this respect we are all infected to some degree or another with superficial dysfunctional behavior and incoherrent pseudo-intellectrual ideas and arguments of who we are and what our purpose is.

 

So the general question is what is good for one?

 

To answer that I studied reasonably uncontaminated family groups and extended-family grouos in Africa and was able to determine what kind of upbringing is best for healhty-minded infants and children. The fact that we are all here with our numbers still exploding , is mute testamony to the soundness of that ancestral background (which constitutes more than 99% of the time we have invested in developing our consciousness). Modern society is currently breaking almost every one of those tried and tested family values. They are not old-fashioned values. They remain timeless truths that cannot simply be dismissed without paying a severe price.

 

So you are stating that everyone that has divorced is dysfunctional?

To some extent - yes. They were dysfunctional in compatible mate selection and the result is to renege on their solemn marital promises to each other- and the children pay the price - for it not only teaches them never to trust the word of another, but that betrayal of sacred trust also divides their hearts in half as well. Extended-family values suffer also. It is not a question of blame - simply of inadequate preparatory education.

 

Would you also argue that any children who had divorced parents are dysfunctional?

Yes. They have to be infected to some degree. Healing can and does take place, but the emotional scars remain, most of them sub-conscious - which in turn inhibits the expression of their true genius. That is why so few of us come up with exiting original thoughts and artistic expressions that reveal the full joy of life. We are sad inside. It is why we have so many laws, so many police and so many prisons.

 

Getting back to generalities, I would claim that society is fine. Most people are law abiding, decent human beings. True, a few exceptions can tarnish society, but as they are the exceptions and not the rule...

 

Our vast foundation of ancestrally inherited disciplines and inherrent goodness (100,000 generations) can never run dry. But we are enacting the parable of the prodigal son right now; we are gambling recklessly and needlessly with our linheritance, and can easily self-destruct before we achieve the Key of young adulthood. If you have a reckless, daring, irreverent 19 year old son, you will get some idea of what God is feeling right now as He waits anxiously for us to return to His house and get on with the long-term plans He has laid out for our future.

[InfiniteNow]

I have often wondered what a horse must sense when the jockey puts blinders on them. Cannot see anything in the periphery, what other horses are doing, and the like...

 

After reading posts like the one immediately above, I have an analogy, in human terms, for a horse wearing blinders.

 

A rorschach test indeed... ;)

[MagnetMan]

I have often wondered what a horse must sense when the jockey puts blinders on them. Cannot see anything in the periphery, what other horses are doing, and the like...

 

After reading posts like the one immediately above, I have an analogy, in human terms, for a horse wearing blinders:(

 

Blinders keep the eyes focused on the winning post and stops the horse faltering from silly distractions.:naughty:

[IDMclean]

There are exceptions that further the aim of evolution and must therefore be applied to the general theorem.

The fundamental generality that I work from is that i see humankind as a single evolving consciousness. In this respect, what is good for one, must be good for all.

 

This would identify the answer to the question I asked previously. It would seem that your basis is in sociology. This is due to the holistic treatment of the society, rather than the individual oriented compositional view of society.

 

Day without night, is nothing. Light without Dark, is blindness. One can not comprehend that which one has not expirienced.

 

To not look at the system as a whole, is to not look at the system but a single part, which though significant is worthless without the rest of the system.

[Racoon]

Day without night, is nothing. Light without Dark, is blindness. One can not comprehend that which one has not expirienced.

 

To not look at the system as a whole, is to not look at the system but a single part, which though significant is worthless without the rest of the system.

 

"One cannot comprehend which one has not experienced"

 

Death. We all Die. Whats it like??

Dark without light, night without day?

 

Its a life cycle change. One we don't know about, yet one that everyone will experience! :naughty: :naughty:

[IDMclean]

Yes and until we die we cannot know or say what happens after. We can not comprehend death, that is cannot grok death. Until we have experienced it and once that has happened there is no telling anyone who has not experienced it.

[MagnetMan]

No atom dies. All is in transition. What we call death is simply the expiration of the phantom ego called self, which we created ourself. In the end all atomic consciousness return to the source of Being and experiences the Grace of reunion.