The Darkness

[OpenMind5]

Hello everybody, I am back! LOL I have coem back with a very interesting question for everyone. It has to do with Evil. In many religions and even in stories or myths, there is a refrence to evil, but the evil is tied to a person or an image, No what i mean? What i am asking is if there really is a being known as Satan. Or Hades, or is evil a non material thing? How does evil work and where does it play? I know many people worship the "devil" or "evil". BUt which does exsist. Ok, so late me reiterate my question to you all. WHat is evil? (i am not asking about evil actions, but in essence, what is it?) Good luck.

 

OP5

[Freethinker]

In looking up the defintion of evil, there was a picture of G.W. Bush associated with it. 'nuf said?

[Freethinker]

As to the possibility of some entity which is the embodyment of evil, if one reads the bible and learns of all the atrrocities committed by and in the name of it's claimed source of revelation, it would seem it's GOD is the embodyment of evil itself. It's god performs far more "evil" attrocities and actions than all other entities mentioned in it. In fact the bible states that it's god IS and created evil.

 

But we can easily reject the biblical concept of a supernatural entity for either or both good or evil. That rules out not only the biblical god, but it's yang, Satan, the Devil, also.

[Tormod]

Hi OP5. Hope you hang around!

 

EDIT: Forgot to add...we've missed you!

[TeleMad]

Does anything other than humans display evilness? (I would say that predators don't display evilness since they must kill to survive).

[Freethinker]

I would suggest that "evil" requires "intent".

[TeleMad]

That was the point I was timidly trying to make (I feel a bit like a fish out of water when not dealing with hard facts). Feel a bit better that someone else seems to agree.

 

Now, does that mean that evil is restricted to humans? If so, then it's not a universal of nature but rather an aspect of humankind.

 

Furthermore, is evil in the eye of the beholder? After all, I would guess that the Nazi's of his day didn't consider Hitler to be evil, while others, even today, lump Darwin in with Hitler to try to show how evil Darwin is/was.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: TeleMad

Now, does that mean that evil is restricted to humans? If so, then it's not a universal of nature but rather an aspect of humankind.

I've watched cats torture mice and birds for no apparent reason other than their own amusement. I can't know of a cats intent, or if it is smart enough to know it is inflicting pain on its victim, but this seems an evil act. I recall reading about chimpanzees killing without reason. I don't think evil is restricted to humans, we are likely the only species to recognize what it is though.

 

So I guess it does come to intent. Does ignorance of the consequences of ones actions negate an evil intent? Works in a court of law.(not guilty by reason of insanity)

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

I've watched cats torture mice and birds for no apparent reason other than their own amusement.

 

Yes. *You* (the human) assume that the cat's behaviour is evil.

 

So I guess it does come to intent. Does ignorance of the consequences of ones actions negate an evil intent? Works in a court of law.(not guilty by reason of insanity)

 

I think it is difficult, semantically, to draw a line between "intended evil" and "accidental evil". But all these examples are behavioural.

 

What about OP5's question "what is evil in essence"? I assumed he was asking about if there is such a thing as an "evil force", assumingly in opposition to the "universal good".

 

OP5's example of the Christian devil is interesting, since it in many ways is a symbol of all things evil (and the ultimate evil, perhaps). Historically I believe this has been much of the basis for the discussion of free will - if there is such a thing as a Master Evil being, tempting us away from the Right Way, and if there is a Good Bein, showing us how to avoid these tempations, then...well...you have the foundation for a religion.

 

I think neither good nor evil is inherent in the universe. Nor do I think it is limited to human beings. If it implies intent, I would say Unc's cats could be found to have evil streaks. If we found ET, he would also be prone to streaks of evil. I think evil might be a socialogical necessity, or at least a result of intelligence (okay, not ready to go into that discussion yet).

 

But I don't think this evil comes out of a universal force.

 

By the way, there is a big difference between the devil and Hades - the Christian devil was a fallen angel, ruler of Hell, where bad people go. Hades was a God (brother of Zeus and Poseidon) - the ruler of the underworld in Greek mythology - and *everyone* who died went there. So the spirits of the dead would end up there no matter how good the person had been.

[OpenMind5]

Hey guys, wanna reply to a pervious comment by Freethinker. You said that god himself created evil. I must disagree. God created all things, and according to the bible, it was thoses things he created that became evil, therefore we as humnas, and the angels, or whatever you believe, created evil. Or is that so??? LOL Evil can take many embodyments, but i think in the end, evil is what you make it. Kinda like when a person kills someone and says, I'm insane, and its all better, becuase they don't understand evil...its all what u make it.

 

 

OP5

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: OpenMindFive

Hey guys, wanna reply to a pervious comment by Freethinker. You said that god himself created evil. I must disagree. God created all things, and according to the bible, it was thoses things he created that became evil, therefore we as humnas, and the angels, or whatever you believe, created evil. Or is that so??? LOL Evil can take many embodyments, but i think in the end, evil is what you make it. Kinda like when a person kills someone and says, I'm insane, and its all better, becuase they don't understand evil...its all what u make it.

 

If the Christian God is omnipotent, then how come he cannot stop evil?

 

Anyway, if evil is made by many of the things he creates, as you state, then evil must be an innate ability in the things he created. Or else how would you explain that there is so much evil around (as I assume you believe)? Could the angels and people "create" evil all on their own? Then there should be many kinds of evil...because when a lot of people do something, it is never the same thing.

 

The bibilical view is antropomorphic - it is "man" that is evil, plus of course some angels and demons. But This implies that evil is within us. Was the snake in the garden of Eden evil? Or just a tool for a greater evil?

 

Evil is of course represented in many religions and it is a useful tool to steer people away from the things which a religion does not like (or rather, it's priests and preachers do not like). They can say "rock music is evil" (so it is intended to make people act evil)...well, the list is as long as the road to hell.

 

But who has the right to define what is evil and what is not? That becomes a problem for the religions. Also, this is based on a lot of assumptions, like mentioned before - that it is a human thing, that evil implies intent, that evil actually exists as some sort of "force" which can come over us. None of these things have been proven, as far as I know, so we are dealing with a very faith-based concept.

 

Granted, being a non-believer, I also use the term "evil" and I attribute it mostly to people, but I think to me it simply means "intentional acts meant to hurt others in order to gain something for one self" or something like that. It does not have religious connotations for me.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Tormod

Granted, being a non-believer, I also use the term "evil" and I attribute it mostly to people, but I think to me it simply means "intentional acts meant to hurt others in order to gain something for one self" or something like that. It does not have religious connotations for me.

To me that description sounds more like selfishness. I define evil as an act that is done that causes unnecessary pain or anguish and provides no benefit to the one doing said act. Someone kills a chicken by breaking it's neck with the intention of eating it, as compared to cutting off it's legs first and finding some amusement in it's suffering. That is a grotesque example,...but you get the point.

[Veritas]

Originally posted by: OpenMindFive

What i am asking is if there really is a being known as Satan. Or Hades, or is evil a non material thing?

 

If you read the Bible, you will find that Satan is not a material being. In reply to Tormod, God does not stop evil, he uses it to accomplish his will.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

To me that description sounds more like selfishness. I define evil as an act that is done that causes unnecessary pain or anguish and provides no benefit to the one doing said act.

 

Okay. So Bush's term "Axis of Evil" means that his political opponents in Iraq et al are "selfish" and do nothing for their own benefit? Then what are they prime motives? Is it possible to rule a country without a motive?

 

Or how about a group which storms a school, takes 1500 hostages, most of which are kids, kills many of them. I'd say it is an undeniable act of evil. Yet they claim to have a purpose, so it must provide them with some benefit.

 

Hm. We're down to semantics again. Kind of unavoidable, no?

[Uncle Martin]

I see your point. Tragic about those children, I've been telling people that our schools would be targets for two years now. "Undeniable?" I think not. I have no way of knowing if they felt bad about what they were doing and just saw it as a means to an end,.... or if they actually took pleasure in their act.

 

I will only say that Bush's definition of evil is religiously based. Therefore is just too nonsensicle for interpretation. His political opponents may be evil,... selfish,... or both. I don't know. Rule a country without a motive? I'll need to think on that one a bit.

 

I shot my neighbor's dog the other day,... because it kept chewing through my telephone and air conditioner wires. I did not want to do this! I had asked for them to solve the problem many times. But to me I was just doing what needed to be done, regardless of how much I disliked doing it. Of course my neighbor thinks I am evil. Could be that evil is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I have witnessed evil acts done by normally kind people, and seen acts of kindness done by rather evil people. I guess that as much as I try to objectively view this, most people qualify evil subjectively?

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

"Undeniable?" I think not. I have no way of knowing if they felt bad about what they were doing and just saw it as a means to an end,.... or if they actually took pleasure in their act.

 

Okay. We agree on the "intent" part, but I'm not sure about the taking pleasure part. If they saw it as a means to and end - then they did it for a purpose. If they took pleasure in it - then they did it for a purpose, too. Or am I reading this the wrong way?

 

I will only say that Bush's definition of evil is religiously based. Therefore is just too nonsensicle for interpretation.

 

Agreed. I just wanted to bring it up since it uses the term "evil" in a way which sells the idea of going to war for political power to a large number of people who believe that "their" use of force is less (evil/bad/supressive) than "the other's".

 

I shot my neighbor's dog the other day,... because it kept chewing through my telephone and air conditioner wires. I did not want to do this!

 

Sheesh. Where do you live? Huntsville. Ah. It's in the name, see?

 

I think evil is indeed in the eye of the beholder. Considering that the opening post in this thread asked if there is an evil "force" in the universe, I think we are finding that such a force does not exist. Evil is up for interpretation. Evil is a label we use for certain kinds of acts, done with a certain intent (again, this is up to the beholder to interpret!). We may be driven to do it, we may be forced to do it, we may want to do it - but still it is not caused by an evil "force".

 

I have witnessed evil acts done by normally kind people, and seen acts of kindness done by rather evil people. I guess that as much as I try to objectively view this, most people qualify evil subjectively?

 

I wonder if it is even possible to qualify evil "objectively", unc. I don't think thre is such a thing as "universal" evil, for example. There are things which I consider "evil" (like female "circumcision") which to some people obviously are a law of nature.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: Tormod

Okay. We agree on the "intent" part, but I'm not sure about the taking pleasure part. If they saw it as a means to and end - then they did it for a purpose. If they took pleasure in it - then they did it for a purpose, too. Or am I reading this the wrong way?

You are reading it correctly,... I just did not see the pleasure being a purpose in itself until you pointed it out. I think we see things about the same. Now that you've helped me to see that pleasure is a purpose, which I hadn't considered before. Yes, very subjective stuff indeed. Not easy to see clearly through the spectacles of science.