TINNY Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Originally posted by: lindagarretteI Would "objectively" determine that birth control is bad because it interferes with the natural process of selection.I don't think we can interfere with the natural process of selection because we ourselves are bound by that law. so whatever we do is part of that law.hmm... what am i getting at? ..........oh yeah, we are then determined by nature's law and good/bad would be meaningless.There is not a single thing that we can objectively decide?I don't think so unless we find certainty. without certainty, everything is just possibilities, likeliness, predictions etc. I would classify as "objective" an independant outside evaluation of the event based on it's affect to society.why does it have to be based on it's affect to society? by this, you are already stating that what is good is what helps society's progress.So, good is progress to society while bad is the opposite. Now, to define what is good to society - survival? happiness? or maybe the opposite - maybe we can interpret extinction of our species as bad? whow, I'm going round in circles. getting dizzy... There is no objectivity in human judgementthus humans cannot judge what is good or what is bad. would that contradict with secularism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Originally posted by: TINNYhmm... what am i getting at? ..........oh yeah, we are then determined by nature's law and good/bad would be meaningless.Thus reward/ punishment is meaningless.There is not a single thing that we can objectively decide?I don't think so unless we find certainty. without certainty, everything is just possibilities, likeliness, predictions etc.At what point does probablity equal certainty? Forcing the earth out of orbit would most CERTAINLY cause the extinction of human life on earth. Lessor actions could have similar affects. Chopping off your head would CERTAINLY end your life. I think it is safe to say that if you desire to stay alive, chopping off your head would be objectively bad. I think it is safe to say that for human society, it objectively would be bad for us to intentionally force Earth out of orbit. I would classify as "objective" an independant outside evaluation of the event based on it's affect to society.why does it have to be based on it's affect to society? by this, you are already stating that what is good is what helps society's progress.Let's say "society's continued existence". "Progress" is SUBJECTIVE. What one may consider progress another may consider harm. So, good is progress to society while bad is the opposite. Now, to define what is good to society - survival? happiness? or maybe the opposite - maybe we can interpret extinction of our species as bad?On a species level, yes extinction is the ultimate bad. Is this confusing? Is this NOT objective? But "happiness" is subjective. Some are "happy" when being subjegated by antiquated superstitions of various religions. Others prefer chemical addictions to mental ones. Some find happiness in not being forced to adhere to arbitrary claims of divine restrictions and intentional ignorance. whow, I'm going round in circles. getting dizzy... Yes it is reflected in the post.There is no objectivity in human judgementthus humans cannot judge what is good or what is bad. would that contradict with secularism?1st, your agreement with the quote does not make it true. 2nd secularism is merely removal of arbitrary sectarian claims and rules. How does that fit into the discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted November 11, 2004 Report Share Posted November 11, 2004 Originally posted by: FreethinkerOriginally posted by: TINNYhmm... what am i getting at? ..........oh yeah, we are then determined by nature's law and good/bad would be meaningless.Thus reward/ punishment is meaningless.If the first premise is true, then Yes! And also, we wouldn't have to bother about persuading others to be unbelievers since nature will take its course no matter what.There is not a single thing that we can objectively decide?I don't think so unless we find certainty. without certainty, everything is just possibilities, likeliness, predictions etc.At what point does probablity equal certainty?We can only have certainty if we know all the laws of the universe clearly and we can invent systems to calculate everything about the future. I think it was Laplace who suggested something like that with newton's laws of motion.Forcing the earth out of orbit would most CERTAINLY cause the extinction of human life on earth.Using our best tools today, there is still a chance, however small, that that event will not cause extinction of humans on earth. we would need empirical evidence in order to be certain.Chopping off your head would CERTAINLY end your life.you never know... to be certain, you'd have to simulate an exact environment, at the exact time you want to chop my head off. you would only be certain AFTER you chop my head off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINNY Posted November 11, 2004 Report Share Posted November 11, 2004 I would classify as "objective" an independant outside evaluation of the event based on it's affect to society.why does it have to be based on it's affect to society? by this, you are already stating that what is good is what helps society's progress.Let's say "society's continued existence". "Progress" is SUBJECTIVE. What one may consider progress another may consider harm.One may consider "society's continued existence" as bad too.So, good is progress to society while bad is the opposite. Now, to define what is good to society - survival? happiness? or maybe the opposite - maybe we can interpret extinction of our species as bad?On a species level, yes extinction is the ultimate bad. Is this confusing? Is this NOT objective? Yes, it is confusing. What use would it be to just survive? Why would it be good. Why do you desire that? It is NOT objective, unless you provide factual and logical reasons. I would say it is subjective since it depends on each individual's feelings.whow, I'm going round in circles. getting dizzy... Yes it is reflected in the post.then help straighten me out. you won't get much satisfaction in beating up someone three times younger than you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted November 11, 2004 Report Share Posted November 11, 2004 If you can't see extinction as less benefitial than existence to a species, there is little I can help straighten you out with. At my age most people would be suprised and congradulate me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted November 11, 2004 Report Share Posted November 11, 2004 You are missing the point., FT. We are not trying to judge whether something is beneficial to a thing or not. The discussion is about whether a decision is objective or not. Of course, to the species, or to an indifvidual in the group, extention may not be beneficial, but to nature, the extenction makes no difference whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted November 11, 2004 Report Share Posted November 11, 2004 Originally posted by: lindagarretteThe discussion is about whether a decision is objective or not. Of course, to the species, or to an indifvidual in the group, extention may not be beneficial, but to nature, the extenction makes no difference whatsoever.Nothing means anything to "Nature". We only know of one species that makes truly rational decisions on "moral" issues. That is why the discussion of a possible "objective" approach can only be based on human thought. Can HUMANS make objective moral/ ethical decisions or is everything subjective. That is why the only species at issue is the human species. And our extinction can easily be shown objectively to be harmful to the human species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 OpenMind5, I'm sorry bu I've heard too often from Christians that everything they have achieved is really God doing it. It is mind boggling to hear a person give all credit to God. But given this, wouldn't it be just to say that God is responsible for any and all evil as he is responsible for all that these Christians claim he is responsible for?Evil is not a created thing. It is a quality attributed to things by humans and the definition is subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos13 Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Hey guys, wanna reply to a pervious comment by Freethinker. You said that god himself created evil. I must disagree. God created all things, and according to the bible, it was thoses things he created that became evil, therefore we as humnas, and the angels, or whatever you believe, created evil. Or is that so??? LOL Evil can take many embodyments, but i think in the end, evil is what you make it. Kinda like when a person kills someone and says, I'm insane, and its all better, becuase they don't understand evil...its all what u make it. OP5 OpenMind5, I'm sorry bu I've heard too often from Christians that everything they have achieved is really God doing it. It is mind boggling to hear a person give all credit to God. But given this, wouldn't it be just to say that God is responsible for any and all evil as he is responsible for all that these Christians claim he is responsible for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritual Anarchist Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Hey guys, wanna reply to a pervious comment by Freethinker. You said that god himself created evil. I must disagree. God created all things, and according to the bible, it was thoses things he created that became evil, therefore we as humnas, and the angels, or whatever you believe, created evil. Or is that so??? LOL Evil can take many embodyments, but i think in the end, evil is what you make it. Kinda like when a person kills someone and says, I'm insane, and its all better, becuase they don't understand evil...its all what u make it. OP5 No no He was refering to the BIBLE where God admits he creates Evil. He was stating a fact according to Christianity not his personal opinion. It is in Isaiah 455 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritual Anarchist Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Hey guys, wanna reply to a pervious comment by Freethinker. You said that god himself created evil. I must disagree. God created all things, and according to the bible, it was thoses things he created that became evil, therefore we as humnas, and the angels, or whatever you believe, created evil. Or is that so??? LOL Evil can take many embodyments, but i think in the end, evil is what you make it. Kinda like when a person kills someone and says, I'm insane, and its all better, becuase they don't understand evil...its all what u make it. OP5No no He was refering to the BIBLE where God admits he creates Evil. He was stating a fact according to Christianity not his personal opinion. It is in Isaiah 455 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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