Is there a God? What do YOU think???

[DEIOLOGIST]

"OK, so you lack an understanding of Quantum Mechanics" Yes Quantum Mechanics is how it is done. What is behind Quantum Mechanics -- the laws of Physics which are part of The unified laws of nature or the real God. Unless you think Quantum Mechanics has to do with Jesus waiving snakes around, If you think that then you are insane.

"Chimps and humans evolved simultaneously, from a common ancestor. NEITHER existed "8 million years" ago. We are NOT an advanced evolutionary form of chimps." -- So what are you saying a chimp could never evolve intelligence to equal ours? Is there some kind of natural law forbidding it? Sure a chimp is a chimp and a man is a man but given enough time , mutations and natural selection it would be possible for chimp intelligence to catch up to our intelligence in 8 million years. I am not saying it will. I am saying that given 8 million years it could be possible. The point was that we could NEVER evolve into the laws of nature -- that would be impossible.

[DEIOLOGIST]

"Nope. I think it's the other way around. Man created God to explain all of that stuff he couldn't figure out."

 

So you believe the laws behind the four fundamental forces - Gravity, the electromagnetic force and the weak and strong nuclear forces are man made? You think man made the unified natural laws? God IS the unified natural laws, the laws that are behind the big bang - evolution - and everything else.

 

When I say the consciousness of God, I am not referring to human consciousness but , mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology - the laws behind the four ways of knowing.

[Queso]

So you believe the laws behind the four fundamental forces - Gravity, the electromagnetic force and the weak and strong nuclear forces are man made? You think man made the unified natural laws? God IS the unified natural laws, the laws that are behind the big bang - evolution - and everything else.

 

you need to understand humans are not any more significant than anything else around here.

just because we created god to explain all the things we couldn't (nicely put c1ay) doesn't mean we created the laws of physics...you and i both know that that is absurd.

 

god is NOT the unified natural laws. god is a major part of mythology.

[Queso]

When I say the consciousness of God, I am not referring to human consciousness but , mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology - the laws behind the four ways of knowing.

 

this makes absolutely no sense.

[C1ay]

"Nope. I think it's the other way around. Man created God to explain all of that stuff he couldn't figure out."

 

So you believe the laws behind the four fundamental forces - Gravity, the electromagnetic force and the weak and strong nuclear forces are man made? You think man made the unified natural laws? God IS the unified natural laws, the laws that are behind the big bang - evolution - and everything else.

 

When I say the consciousness of God, I am not referring to human consciousness but , mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology - the laws behind the four ways of knowing.

 

No one made the fundamental forces, IMO they have existed for eternity. Nature is nature, not some God. If you want to say that you believe nature is God then that is one thing. If you're stating it as some kind of fact that you claim is true whether we believe it or not then you must have some kind of proof we've not seen yet. Care to share it with us?

[TINNY]

We now know according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness (meaning – no time, no space, and no matter).

 

We also know that the beginning of the creation of the universe took place by light coming into existence at a singularity (a point with no dimension).

 

We know that the matter of the physical universe was brought into being by photons (little packages of light energy) which, when colliding with each other, formed the virtually infinite number of protons, neutrons and electrons, which in various combinations make up everything in our physical world.

 

In essence we can now accurately say that all the matter of the physical universe, ourselves included, is actually light slowed down.

 

We know that the space which contains our physical universe is expanding. This is a concept so alien to human thought that until Albert Einstein developed his General Theory of Relativity early in the 20th century it had never occurred to any of the world’s great minds, but was stated in the Qur’an over 1400 years ago when Allah told us, “I am expanding the universe with my power”. Even Einstein was so astounded by his discovery that he falsified his data to show a universe that was not expanding, because he well understood that an expanding universe implies there was somewhere in the distant past a moment of creation for the universe.

 

Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (which he actually called his Absolutism Theorem because he realized he had found the one thing in a relative universe that was absolute) is about the special qualities of light.

 

The Special Theory of Relativity allows us our first objective glimpse into that which exists beyond the material world.

 

We could have found anything once we got our first glimpse beyond the material world, but what we did find is indeed remarkable. We find Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity showing us that the non-material existence beyond the physical world consists only of absolutes, and some of those absolutes are remarkably similar to what everyone’s religion has considered to be among the primary attributes of God.

 

Example One: As the speed of light (300,000km per second) is approached then time slows, and at the speed of light time does not pass. This means for a photon of light which travels at exactly the speed of light, time does not pass. Therefore the photon is outside of time, and ETERNAL.

 

Example Two: Since no time passes for a photon of light, and that photon can be observed at different places in space, therefore that photon of light is simultaneously in those different places (and many other places) at the same time, and therefore OMNIPRESENT.

 

Example Three: Since every bit of matter in the physical universe is created by the energy of light, and that light energy constantly sustains and directs the activity of every bit on matter in the physical existence, then there is no power other than the power of light, light energy is all the power that exists, and therefore OMNIPOTENT.

 

Example Four: Since all knowledge that exists, that ever existed, or will exist, is stored by light energy and transmitted through light energy then there is no knowledge beyond that intrinsic to light, and therefore OMNISCIENT.

 

Furthermore, light does not actually exist within the physical existence although we can somehow perceive it. As you approach the speed of light one of the three dimensions (length, height, and width), the dimension in line with the direction of motion, becomes progressively less, and at the speed of light that dimension becomes zero. To determine volume we multiply height times width times length, but if any one of those three dimensions is zero then the volume is zero, and that thing therefore does not exist in the material universe. Light occupies no volume of space and therefore has no existence in the physical universe.

 

And, while everything in the physical universe has some mass greater than zero, which is a necessary characteristic for existence in the material world, light has no mass at all. As you approach the speed of light mass increases, at the speed of light mass is infinite. Regardless of how tiny the amount of mass you begin with, that mass rises to infinity at the speed of light. Since photons travel at the speed of light and do not reach infinite mass it means that they had zero mass to begin with, and a light therefore does not actually exist in the material world.

 

In the physical existence everything is relative, the absolute existence or non-existence of any quality is not and can not be expressed, everything exists between those two extremes of the continuum from absolute expression to absolute non-expression. We find, though, that beyond the material existence all qualities either exist in an infinite state or have no existence at all, there is nothing in between.

 

The great significance of the above findings is they destroy any possible notion of the physical universe existing as a fixed number of material particles which are moved about by a fixed set of physical laws. It is exactly this incorrect understanding of the physical existence which forms the basis of the scientific philosophy of materialism. It is the philosophy of materialism, particularly secular materialism, which has allowed the belief in God to be so powerfully challenged by unbelievers in these past few hundred years, more or less from the time of Isaac Newton.

 

 

 

It is no longer intellectually possible nor logically reasonable, in light of the finding of modern physics and cosmology, to hold the view of the atheists (that there is no God). The only logically reasonable, and intellectually honest, conclusion that can be drawn from the findings of modern science is that God does exist, that the attributes of God are absolute, and that God did create the physical universe (including human life). We are presently at the beginning of the transition point from a secular materialistic world-view to a spiritual, God-centered world-view.

[C1ay]

We now know according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness (meaning – no time, no space, and no matter).

 

We also know that the beginning of the creation of the universe took place by light coming into existence at a singularity (a point with no dimension).

 

We know that the matter of the physical universe was brought into being by photons (little packages of light energy) which, when colliding with each other, formed the virtually infinite number of protons, neutrons and electrons, which in various combinations make up everything in our physical world.

 

In essence we can now accurately say that all the matter of the physical universe, ourselves included, is actually light slowed down.

 

I respectfully disagree. Recent aastronomical discoveries continue to find galaxies and clusters that appear to be older than the theorized big bang. Growing technology is accelerating the rate of these discoveries. IMO it is extremely immature for mankind to draw these types of conclusions based on the very limited, archaic observations he has be limited to thus far. I also believe there are many discovereis left to find for which the enabling technologies have yet to be conceived.

 

We know that the space which contains our physical universe is expanding. This is a concept so alien to human thought that until Albert Einstein developed his General Theory of Relativity early in the 20th century it had never occurred to any of the world’s great minds,

 

I do not find this concept alien at all. There very well could have been a local singularity that expelled mass and energy through space in all directions in the event referred to as the big bang. I do not believe that we can conclude that this singularity contained all or even a majority of the mass of a universe bigger than that we can observe. Any such conclusion requires an assumption that nothing lies beyond the event horizon, that we can observe all that there is. We have no evidence to support this and any such conclusion is simply a leap of faith. Without the proof that we cannot have I cannot accept such a conclusion with no supporting evidence.

[DEIOLOGIST]

god is NOT the unified natural laws. god is a major part of mythology

 

 

I believe in the real God (The unified natural laws) not the dark age guy with a beard that you define as god. Calling the unified natural laws God is like calling an automobile a car, it is the same thing. I agree with Einstein on the definition of God, you agree with the bible. Your god is a myth my God is real.

[C1ay]

Your god is a myth my God is real.

 

You really do need to cough up something to support this if you are going to make such a claim. Do you have any testable proof to support your theory?

[Freethinker]

"OK, so you lack an understanding of Quantum Mechanics" Yes Quantum Mechanics is how it is done. What is behind Quantum Mechanics -- the laws of Physics which are part of The unified laws of nature or the real God.

(emphasis added)

Or the farts of the Great Invisible Pink Unicorn. See we can all make up random assertions and add arbitrary 3rd parties. It is a fun party game.

 

It is NOT SCIENCE.

[Freethinker]

"Nope. I think it's the other way around. Man created God to explain all of that stuff he couldn't figure out."

 

So you believe the laws behind the four fundamental forces - Gravity, the electromagnetic force and the weak and strong nuclear forces are man made? You think man made the unified natural laws?

At what point was it suggested that man INVENTED the forces? Why are you not discussing the ACTUAL issues rather than inventing straw man arguments?

 

Yes man invented gods, thousands of them. However man, utilizing established scientific process, DISCOVERED, QUANTIFIED and NAMED the forces. There is no claim by anyone but you that man INVENTED them.

God IS the unified natural laws, the laws that are behind the big bang - evolution - and everything else.

Nope, GOD is the stain on your underwear when you do not wipe properly. I can prove god exists. Want to see my proof?

 

See how easy it is to INVENT new definitions for the term god?

 

If you want to pretend that the term god refers to "the unified natural laws" then you are stating that god is nothing more than what our particular physical existence allows. Not a SUPERnatural first cause.

 

In which case I think my invented definition for god is more fun at a party. But arbitrary inventions of defintions for otherwise well established symbolic representations of terms stops intellectually honest dialog. If we can not reliably work within established symbolic representations of terms, we can not rationally discuss things. Apples become chimps without common concent.

[Freethinker]

If you're stating it as some kind of fact that you claim is true whether we believe it or not then you must have some kind of proof we've not seen yet. Care to share it with us?

WOW! A request for proof! I like this guy! How refreshing.

[Freethinker]

but was stated in the Qur’an over 1400 years ago when Allah told us, “I am expanding the universe with my power”.

So do you want a list of the parts of the Qu'ran which violate science? An occasional coincidental postdiction does not validate the overall text.

The Special Theory of Relativity allows us our first objective glimpse into that which exists beyond the material world.

It does? Where? How? SHow us ANYWHERE that SR deals with things OUTSIDE our physical existence (material world). This is just an attempt to validate religious mumbo jumbo with false connections to actual science. You haven't changed Tinny.

We could have found anything once we got our first glimpse beyond the material world

OK and exactly when did we get this "first glimpse beyond the material world"? Show us ANYTHING that exists "beyond the material world".

[Freethinker]

Your god is a myth my God is real.

Your god is the myth, my god is real, till my next laundry day.

 

Anyone else care to invent another defintion for the word god so we can obfuscate the discussion even more?

[DEIOLOGIST]

"then you must have some kind of proof we've not seen yet. Care to share it with us?"

"You really do need to cough up something to support this if you are going to make such a claim. Do you have any testable proof to support your theory?"

 

Hi C1ay, for the proof that the natural laws are behind creation - you can look to any reputable scientific book on cosmology. I like Dreams of a Final Theory - The Scientist's Search for the Ultimate Laws of Nature - Steven Weisenburg -

Alan Guth's The Inflationary Universe- The Quest for a new theory of Cosmic Origins.

Just 6 Numbers: The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe by Martin Reese.

The Book of Nothing : Vacuums, Voids and The Latest Ideas About The Origins of The Universe by John Barrow.

 

Proof that the unified natural laws is God. The best book on this subject is Einstein & Religion by Max Jammer. One of my favorite quotes from this book is " All of reality is the three dimensionilizing of the four fundamental forces." This book is an exhalent source of Einstein's views on religion. I found Einstein's religion 100% convincing. The closest religion to Einstein's is Deism :

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble." ... " "[The scientists'] religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection." - Albert Einstein

Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215 The aspects of God which he rejects seem often to surface in the word "anthropomorphic" - human-like. His God, rather, seemed to be an "intelligence" or "superior reasoning power" which was behind the laws and harmonies of the universe.

Telegram to a Jewish newspaper, 1929; [pg.147, Calaprice]. (Spinoza believed the more one studies and understands the universe the better one understands God) "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who is revealed in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. " - - Albert Einstein

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/einstein_symphony_prog_summary.shtml

Einstein's work was underpinned by the idea that the laws of physics were an expression of the divine. This belief led him to think that everything could be described by simple, elegant mathematics and moreover, that once you knew these laws you could describe the universe with absolute accuracy... his theory of everything – was his attempt to extend general relativity and unite the known forces in the universe.

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God." Carl Sagan - Broca's Brain.

 

I always wondered about ultimate answers so I read hundreds of science books, papers and articles on the subject. My context of this evidence is entirely different than yours. I am picking out a page of "proof" when I have read, heard over a hundred thousand pages of proof in numerous science books, magazine articles, news paper articles, interviews, web sites, conversations, TV and radio shows and other presentations over the past twelve years.

[TINNY]

So do you want a list of the parts of the Qu'ran which violate science? An occasional coincidental postdiction does not validate the overall text.

for the sake of the argument, just ignore that part for now.

 

It does? Where? How? SHow us ANYWHERE that SR deals with things OUTSIDE our physical existence (material world)....OK and exactly when did we get this "first glimpse beyond the material world"? Show us ANYTHING that exists "beyond the material world".

We characterize the material world as having mass, occupies a volume of space and is involved in the flow of time. That EMW has none of those characteristics according to SR means that it is OUTSIDE our physical existence.

[TINNY]

Your god is the myth, my god is real, till my next laundry day.

 

Anyone else care to invent another defintion for the word god so we can obfuscate the discussion even more?

At the most fundamental level, GOD has to be the creator of this physical existence. Theology would then discuss and elaborate what other characteristics should be attributed to this creator.