Democratic Education

[IrishEyes]

We've joined a new group of homeschoolers, and it's been great so far. The people that we have met are much different than most of the people the kids are exposed to on a regualr basis. One of the women that runs the group has introduced me to an educational philosophy, and I'd like to get your opinion on it.

 

It is called the Sudbury Valley School. There are other schools around the world that have been modeled from it, and I think the idea is fascinating. It is much like what we do at home, but on a larger scale. Basically, there are no classes, no teachers, no tests, not grades. The kids are encouraged to learn what they want, when they want, how they want. The kids also have a part in running the school, including making the rules, and dispensing discipline.

 

Check out this link and tell me what you think...

 

http://www.sudval.org

 

Do you think this is a viable educational alternative? I'm not going to ask "Could it work?", because they have been doing it since the 60's, so they're doing something right. But could it work for your kids? For you?

[InfiniteNow]

Personally, I think not. Kid's (without the proper parental and intellectual guidance that is) would only do kid things... like eat candy and play video games and the like if that was their option. I know... I was a kid once too. :hihi:

 

 

We have a group of home schooled kids that I know from my martial arts... they are absolutely brilliant kids, but speaking to them, they are SO poorly socialized and SO awkward, and really don't write very well or speak with any indication of intelligence. It's really only after knowing them for a long while that I've determined they have amazing potential which is just being wasted by home schooling.

 

I guess with home schooling, it's only as good as the teacher, it's just that you don't have anyone else with whom to compare notes.

 

 

To get back on point though... the whole system about which you asked looks good up front, but after about a month or so I'd be led to believe that motivation trails off.

[Tormod]

I tried to look for criticism of the sudval system but was unable to find anything worth reading. I'd try to find at least some negative feedback about the system - there is always something to learn from those who have been subject to it but who felt it wasn't right for them.

 

It sounds a little bit "too good to be true" IMHO.

 

It's not an alternative for us for many reasons, particularly because we feel at home with the public school system here in Norway. But we've talked about that before... :hihi:

[C1ay]

The kids are encouraged to learn what they want, when they want, how they want.

I think there is one drawback to this. The three 'Rs', readin', 'riting and 'rithmetic, are essential in my opinion. I think that kids that have trouble with any of these will avoid them if they can. Kids need a good dose of these whether they like the taste or not.

[IrishEyes]

Did any of you take the time to look at the link provided? I'm asking only because you seem to be voicing the same concerns that nemo voiced, before he actually read the stuff.

 

To get back on point though... the whole system about which you asked looks good up front, but after about a month or so I'd be led to believe that motivation trails off.

This school has been in operation for almost 40 years. How does it keep going if motivation trails off after about a month?

I think there is one drawback to this. The three 'Rs', readin', 'riting and 'rithmetic, are essential in my opinion. I think that kids that have trouble with any of these will avoid them if they can. Kids need a good dose of these whether they like the taste or not.

Again, I understand what you mean, but reading through the site, and talking to these people, that's exactly their point. If children are not 'forced' they will come to these very same conclusions on their own. When they do realize these things, they will have the desire to learn - not because someone told them they had to for some arbitrary reason, but because they actually want to learn.

 

I tried to look for criticism of the sudval system but was unable to find anything worth reading. I'd try to find at least some negative feedback about the system - there is always something to learn from those who have been subject to it but who felt it wasn't right for them.

I've looked. I can not find anything. If you can, I'd love to see the links. I agree that it's best to make a decision after hearing from all sorts of different parties, but if you can't find a dissenting opinion, what is the alternative? Make soemthing up? Stick to your own personal view without seriously considering that there might be viable alternatives?

[Tormod]

I've looked. I can not find anything. If you can, I'd love to see the links. I agree that it's best to make a decision after hearing from all sorts of different parties, but if you can't find a dissenting opinion, what is the alternative? Make soemthing up? Stick to your own personal view without seriously considering that there might be viable alternatives?

 

Oh, I agree. I just thought it was curious that not a single complaint of any kind popped up after 10 minutes of searching.

 

I have no intention to badmouth this system since I have qualifications to do so. :hihi:

[pgrmdave]

I think that it would be a great place to learn, for some children, and horrible for others. If a child has a strong desire to learn, an intense curiosity, and can discipline themselves enough to do what is good and not necessarily what is easy, then they are a good candidate for the school.

[C1ay]

Did any of you take the time to look at the link provided?

Yes I did and I actually think it's a good concept. I remember seeing a kid on TV that had sizeable business before his 16th birthday. His parents were also successful business owners that began treating him like an adult at around 8. Their philosophy was that you treat them like adults and they will be adults. I kind of felt sorry for the kid though since he missed out on being a kid.

 

Again, I understand what you mean, but reading through the site, and talking to these people, that's exactly their point. If children are not 'forced' they will come to these very same conclusions on their own.

 

I really don't doubt that they will come to the conclusion that they need these things. For example though, there will be some kids that just hate math because they have some mental block or lack aptitude. No matter who forces them to study this necessity it must be someone, themself or their teacher. All I'm saying is that they need to get the 3 Rs one way or the other. I do think those that possess the required self discipline will likely end up with a much more useful education than their peers from institutional school systems.

[CraigD]

http://www.sudval.org

 

Do you think this is a viable educational alternative?

It’s difficult to tell much about the Sudbury Valley educational philosophy just from the linked page, as it’s a collection of promotional literature.

 

You mention that the plan has been in use for over 40 years. This provides an excellent opportunity to assess it, by communicating with its alumni. If they display consistently high basic academic skills, I’d take this as evidence that the program is effective.

 

I’ve no knowing contact with alumni of SudVal. However, I’ve known many alumni of Montessori schools, which have an liberal approach that seems to me similar to SudVal. My impression of them is that they have good language and very good social skills, but tend to be under accomplished in more formal academic disciplines such as Math and Science. Most of them have at least BA degrees in various humanities, and several have very successful careers in management, government, and education. The two I know who pursued Science (Physics and Chemistry, but both currently working in Info Technology) I consider below average in technical ability – though very nice people with good language skills.

[TheBigDog]

Do you think this is a viable educational alternative? I'm not going to ask "Could it work?", because they have been doing it since the 60's, so they're doing something right. But could it work for your kids? For you?

A viable alternative? Maybe. I am skeptical about how rules and complete freedom coexist. They mention a court system in the school, but not what the expectations or rules are. Would it work for my kids? Absolutely not. I would have abused the freedom as a kid, like I did in my "gifted programs", and exacerbated character flaws that I struggle with to this day.

 

My oldest boy struggled with school almost from the beginning. From the second grade he pretty much gave up any display of ambition. There was no form of external motivation that he would respond to. No amount of help or encouragement helped. In the second grade they had a "star student" award if you turned in all your assignments for the week, and got no behavior reports for the week. He set the goal of getting star student one time. But he never did it. We would work with him to get all his homework done and organized every night. But on Monday or Tuesday of every week he would intentionally not turn in an assignment because he didn't want the pressure of succeeding. As a parent this was very frustrating.

 

When we moved to Colorado in 1998 he tested extremely poorly and was put into remedial courses which he failed. Now he gives the impression that he is a bright kid, but seems totally disinterested in anything that comes with expectations. During the summers when we lived a lifestyle similar to what is talked about in the link he would do nothing that remotely challenged him, and basically forget anything he may have learned the previous year.

 

So in 99 we enrolled him in a charter school that was part of the "Expeditionary Learning Outward Bound" network. The hope was that with the hands on activities, and the group settings, he would spur some interest in school. We let him continue for 3 years hoping that there was a breakthrough around the corner, and all he did was sink further into a hole. He was doing no work, and was basically using school as a big social club. He hid behind the groups efforts to try and pass, and did nothing himself. The people who ran the school were far more concerned with his self esteem than with his ability to actually display knowledge of any topic, or ability to critically think, or accept responsibility. We had meeting after meeting where he made his plan for following the school rules and raising his academic participation. And the whole time he fell further and further behind. But despite that, he was advanced from grade to grade and had learned nothing except how to procrastinate and manipulate his teachers and parents into letting him accept no responsibility.

 

I got fed up with it in the third year and against everyones wishes put him into the regular middle school. For one quarter he got one A, one B, one C and three D's, the best grades he had ever gotten, and I was extremely proud that he was showing that he could do the work. I put that report card up on the refrigerator and we went out to dinner to celebrate that he had passed every class. Well, that was good enough for him. As soon as he was satisfied that he could do it, he felt no need to repeat the feat. He passed only one class the next quarter, and didn't give a damn about it. He would lie to us, and lie to his teachers, and spiral into failure. Now I am no stranger to working with people of varying motivations. I manage large project teams and need to teach people how to rethink how they do their jobs. This is very intimidating to them, and requires a great deal of creative coaching to help them realize success (especially with a time line and budget). but despite anything I would do with my eldest, no luck. No rewards or punishments worked because he was totally impervious to external motivation, and had no interest in anything aside from a social life.

 

Well, in the 9th grade he ended up having a brush with the law. And the judge that he was facing put good grades as a condition of his probation. I was being relocated to Ohio, and that meant that if he didn't get good grades I needed to fly him back to Colorado so he could do time in detention, at my cost. Suddenly his bad attitude toward school was no longer an option.

 

Well, when we got to Ohio I decided that enough was enough. I stopped the pretense that he would ever give a damn about school, and dictated his new rules of conduct. These rules came from my wife and I, his PO, and his court mandated counseling. It required a complete lifestyle change not just for him, but for the whole family. My wife and I decided his courses and set expectations. Every comfort in life was stripped away from him. He had a bed in the unfinished basement, a desk and an alarm clock. No phone, no friends over. No Internet or computer games. No leaving the yard to play with people. He could do things with the family, but that was omitted if he was caught lying to us. He was given rules of conduct around the house that he had to follow, and my wife and I became the strict and consistent enforcers of those rules.

 

There was an initial violent rebellion to this aimed at everyone in the family, and I do not hesitate to admit that he quickly learned the futility and pain associated with venting his anger that way. I know it is hard for some people to accept, but a good *** kicking or two seemed to clear away his confusion and denial about his new circumstances and began his road to recovery. He slowly adopted to expectations and began to thrive as a family member, member of society, and student. He is now getting good grades in high school and holding down a job at McDonald's. He pays for his own counceling costs and gets a little of his own money to spend on himself. Once he submitted to following the rules he was given a real bedroom upstairs with the rest of the family. His counseling has gone well and his probation ends soon. He is looking forward to joining the Army.

 

The point of all this is that some people need help in avoiding the path of failure. And despite our best intentions, we sometimes don't do our kids any good by being easy on them and letting them drift as they see fit. There are people who will thrive in such an open environment, but in my experience it can be a trap as well for clever kids who will take advantage of the situation.

 

Bill