Evolution VS. Creationism

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Just for clarification though, Tormod... am I a liar, or not? I thought it was a misunderstanding, but his language seemed like a rather personal attack to me. Am I just being tenderhearted and thin-skinned after so long away, or were those comments unnecessarily vicious?

 

I cannot tell others what to think, but I don't think a single person here really thinks you are anything but a wise woman who takes care of her children in the way she thinks is best for them. And you have every right to, in my eyes.

 

I have no reason to think you are a liar. I think FT is using his usual language to say that STDs can be transmitted non-sexually, which is true, and yes, you have misunderstood the matter but I think FT could well have eased off a bit (you folks are adults, I don't find it necessary to go in and follow every conversation between you).

 

Blood transfusion is a known (proven) way to catch STD. Just last year or so a young boy died here in Norway after getting HIV and then AIDS during a blood transfusion. A complete tragedy, but sadly not an isolated case.

 

So you are not a liar but perhaps you should do some research on this issue.

 

And as to staying off topic...should we perhaps close this thread now and move on?

 

Tormod

[CD27]

that i will do tormod, but, i must say, if you're gonna get on to me about it, i have seen other places in these forums where that has been done, but they're gone now..i never once say any type of warning there, but i'll edit those things out.

 

whew, it tok me all night to put em up there, and now i gotta take em all of again..well, i'm not gonna rgue with the boss, so i'll get to work.

[Tim_Lou]

tormod can simply delete the whole topic if you wish (CD)....

 

so, that saves lot of work...

[CD27]

..no sense in doing that now, i've already done the work.

 

Eric

[Uncle Martin]

Back to the topic. It is evolution vs creation, correct?

 

How can we possibly debate the two? Evolution is a theory based on scientific evidence. The theory is not complete, but has been substantiated enough to be considered valid. The evidence has been posted over and over, I see no need for even more redundant explainations. Creation is a myth based on blind faith and misinformation. They don't belong in the same thread together. It is analogous to debating which came first, the Easter bunny or the egg? Can superman lift the Earth? Etc... Etc... It is nonsensicle. I must admit to finding some of the misinformation taught to creationists to be quite amusing. But really, to try and equate the two completely different concepts is foolish.

[Freethinker]

ops wrong thread!

[Freethinker]

This would seem very appropriate for the topic. From long time acquaintence.

 

As a quick related side note, remember Jeffrey Dahmer? The serial killer, cannibal from Milwaukee, WI.? Seems he was brought up in a nice Christian home. In fact his father authored two books on Creationism.

 

Anyway, if you are looking for the details of how the bible disproves Creationism, here it is!

 

It is with great pride that I announce the publication of my first book; a well-struck punch in the nose of the entire creationist movement. It is titled, Creationism: The Bible Says No!

Yes, the title is a play on the title of Duane Gish's earlier book, Evolution: The Fossils Say No! But the title is also well deserved. It points out the fallacy of biblical literalism, the capstone doctrine of creationism, by citing the Bible's numerous and flagrant errors, inaccuracies, and injustices. Then, it shows how, if the Bible cannot be taken literalistically, why insist on a six-day creation? Furthermore, the book outlines how, if such Bible errors are placed at the vanguard of the defense of evolution in public schools and colleges, creationism is put immediately on the defensive.

So far, this book's arguments have proven to be utterly unbeatable! Want to defeat a creationist every time? Pick up Creationism: The Bible Says No!

 

_http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?q3=eylYMmXaUO4%253d_

(http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?q3=eylYMmXaUO4%3d)

 

Sincerely,

Eric Hildeman

 

I might even be able to get signed copies for those interested.

[IrishEyes]

I might even be able to get signed copies for those interested.

 

I would LOVE one of those! Signed would be even better. I'll share it with my Preacher, I know he'll appreciate it as well.

Thanks so much for the offer, FreeT!!

[wisdumn]

this is a question for anyone willing to give me some logical,reasonable, or scientific proof.

if creation(or invention ) did not happen, then would someone please explain to me how we are able to be inspired in any kind of way. how can we come up with music,fashion,religion,theology,science,humor,belief,disbelief,intelligence,stupidity,or any of the many attributes that are found in humans, i mean how do we come equipped with this knowledge and these abilities without there being a bigger and intelligent source to give them to us? this is a question so feel free to give me some proofs as to how these things are possible.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

this is a question for anyone willing to give me some logical,reasonable, or scientific proof.

if creation(or invention ) did not happen, then would someone please explain to me how we are able to be inspired in any kind of way. how can we come up with music,fashion,religion,theology,science,humor,belief,disbelief,intelligence,stupidity,or any of the many attributes that are found in humans, i mean how do we come equipped with this knowledge and these abilities without there being a bigger and intelligent source to give them to us?

 

Da Wiz, first of all it would be interesting to ask: Why do all the things you list require that there be a creator? How do those things even imply creationism?

[wisdumn]

oh i see, the old question with a question back routine, alright i'll bight, i just personally can't deduce the concept of something from nothing. so like i said first was that i'm just asking for some evidence from the other beliefs that differ from mine to show me where these things(talents, intelligence,abilities)

come from if they're not created from a source already in posession of these gifts, i mean-i'm trying to expand my perception of what it is anyone can prove or evenjust give personal theories that better explain these things, that's all.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

this is a question for anyone willing to give me some logical,reasonable, or scientific proof.

if creation(or invention ) did not happen, then would someone please explain to me how we are able to be inspired in any kind of way.

That is a good question. I don't know the answer,...if there is one.

how can we come up with music,fashion,religion,theology,science,humor,belief,disbelief,intelligence,stupidity,or any of the many attributes that are found in humans, i mean how do we come equipped with this knowledge and these abilities without there being a bigger and intelligent source to give them to us?

That is alot of ground to cover, let's see.....

Music; Mechanical waves that are pleasing to the listener. This is a human invention, although other lifeforms have similar things. Whales sing, dogs howl, etc.... A completely subjective term,...what one calls music,....another calls noise.

 

Fashion; This is strictly a method to attract a mate. Having a mate is very helpful in the evolutionary process.

 

Religion; Another human invention that makes up explanations that explain all of the unexplainable things around us, that some of us can't admit not being able to explain.

 

Theology; same as above.

 

Science; Another human invention. The pursuit of the clearest, most accurate understanding of reality possible.

 

Belief, disbelief; Accepting or rejecting a concept based on faith, rather than facts.

 

Intelligence, stupidity; Mostly genetically inherited. A good part of someone's intellectual ability is based on environmental factors and chance,...in my opinion.

this is a question so feel free to give me some proofs as to how these things are possible.

These things are much more than possible,...they all exist in reality. How much more proof could you need?

 

Should you wish to get more in depth,...please choose ONE of these topics and continue it in it's proper category.

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

oh i see, the old question with a question back routine, alright i'll bight, i just personally can't deduce the concept of something from nothing. so like i said first was that i'm just asking for some evidence from the other beliefs that differ from mine to show me where these things(talents, intelligence,abilities)

come from if they're not created from a source already in posession of these gifts, i mean-i'm trying to expand my perception of what it is anyone can prove or even just give personal theories that better explain these things, that's all.

 

Didn't mean to be arrogant, Wiz. But you asked for proof AGAINST a creator. Therefore it would be VERY helpful to see some evidence FOR it in order to offer counter-evidence. Do you see my point?

 

In my world view there is no need, nor even a place, for a creator. I did not, as some others around here, start out as a Christian who fell from grace. I have always been an atheist and have never believed in God.

 

So I can't offer evidence from the standpoint of a "religion". I can only offer the evidence from astronomy, cosmology and astrophysics, plus evolution, biology, geology etc (plus every other science I can think of, I guess). These are discussed so many places around Hypography that I simply can't list them all here.

[wisdumn]

fair enough. i'm not asking to be disproven nor do i want to disprove anyone, all i'm looking for is some evidence to prove that evolution needed no creator, that it just started happening, and hey, if you need to-use astronomy,cosmology,biology, or even idon'tknowology that's fine, you can even direct me around the site to the best places to show me how something evolved from nothing. i'm not asking to prove there's not a creator, just asking to show how things start up by themselves.

and please EVERYONE, keep the theories and ideas coming, i love being educated.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

this is a question for anyone willing to give me some logical,reasonable, or scientific proof.

...would someone please explain to me how we are able to be inspired in any kind of way.... this is a question so feel free to give me some proofs as to how these things are possible.

Your question , as Tormod pointed out, was basically invalid. To "educate" you as you suggest in your next question is something yo uare looking for, it is the Fallacy of the Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition. This is the interrogative form of Begging the Question. The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked. Another form of this fallacy is to ask for an explanation of something which is untrue or not yet established. This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination, when they ask questions like:

 

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

 

The "unasked question", which is assumed then to be true, is that the person EVER DID beat their wife.

 

In your question, you require that we all assume without any reason to, that these things REQUIRE a prior existence of intellect. That they could not be a natural result of the Evolutionary development of intellect.

[wisdumn]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Originally posted by: wisdumn this is a question for anyone willing to give me some logical,reasonable, or scientific proof. ...would someone please explain to me how we are able to be inspired in any kind of way.... this is a question so feel free to give me some proofs as to how these things are possible.

Your question , as Tormod pointed out, was basically invalid. To "educate" you as you suggest in your next question is something yo uare looking for, it is the Fallacy of the Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition. This is the interrogative form of Begging the Question. The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked. Another form of this fallacy is to ask for an explanation of something which is untrue or not yet established. This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination, when they ask questions like: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The "unasked question", which is assumed then to be true, is that the person EVER DID beat their wife. In your question, you require that we all assume without any reason to, that these things REQUIRE a prior existence of intellect. That they could not be a natural result of the Evolutionary development of intellect.

 

mumbo jumbo mumbo jumbo......what? i thought you would show some scientific evidence or something to teach me about evolution but all i see is avoidance of my question. thanks for the knowledge, i feel so much more enlightened. the only fallacy to a question is when someone who supposedly has the answer won't supply it, maybe then the fallacy is they don't have an answer.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

all i'm looking for is some evidence to prove that evolution needed no creator, that it just started happening, and hey, if you need to-use astronomy,cosmology,biology, or even idon'tknowology that's fine,

None of those are needed Wiz. All we need is to use simple logic and reasoning. Ockham's Razor gives us the answer. Ockham's Razor has NEVER been shown to arrive at the wrong answer, EVER! People often misunderstand or misrepresent how Ockham's Razor works. Basically it states that when evaluating multiple explanations about a specific event, the one that requires the least number of "agents" is the preferable answer.

 

i.e. with Evolution, we are comparing

 

1) Evolution in Nature based on only Nature itself

2) Evolution in Nature based on a creator god.

 

In #1, we have a single agent, only Nature is needed to explain a Natural process.

 

while in #2 we double the number of agents. Rather than Nature explaining itself, we add a god as an outside agent.

you can even direct me around the site to the best places to show me how something evolved from nothing. i'm not asking to prove there's not a creator, just asking to show how things start up by themselves. and please EVERYONE, keep the theories and ideas coming, i love being educated.

How many times do we need to go over this?

 

Evolution has NOTHING TO DO with "how something evolved from nothing".

 

The Scientific Theory dealing with where life first came from is "Abiogenesis".

 

Explain it to them Irish! Or perhaps at least see why Unc and I spend so much time trying to get Christers to understand and use proper concepts and termonolgy. Otherwise we keep getting questions that make no sense.