The Roots of Poverty in America ?

[questor]

Linda, you seem to have the liberal's disease of confusion about cause and effect. inflation can be defined as too much money chasing too few goods.

supply and demand then dictates price increases. i'm just curious about your views. you seem to think the rich somehow oppress the poor. would you explain how they do it ? would you prefer the rich to share their wealth with the poor ? what do the poor have to do in return ? how do the rich get rich and why do the poor stay poor ?

[cwes99_03]

I had been prepared to rant a little here, maybe against both sides, but I grew tired when I landed on my fourth page.

 

Simply put, liberals and conservatives are both part of the problem. Neither one can see the truth in the others plans, for the amount of lies. Both sides are flawed. Both sides have plans that can fix some things to the detriment of others.

 

Not all poor people are stupid/worthless. I was poor for the past 2 years. I could barely afford my car insurance. I had a car worth about $800 that I have owned free and clear for several years. I don't break laws. I had a degree in physics. I worked 4 different jobs in that time span. I never stopped being a minister, even though it took up a large portion of my time, and meant I was unwilling to take a job that required me to give it up. I don't get paid for being a minister, nor do I get a parsonage or anything like that to live in. I actually put whatever little money I could into contributions. I didn't have cable/internet. I had a single phone (my cell, which I paid for the minimum plan each month.

I never once filed for unemployment. I took whatever job I could. I earned about $8 an hour doing so (which I realize is above the "minimum" wage).

I worked as a tent and awning installer, as a substitute teacher, as a roofing laborer, and finally as a seasonal garbage laborer for the city.

I lost 50 pounds because I was eating minimally. I never went to see a movie. I didn't go out to bars or clubs. I didn't buy a bunch of books. I didn't do almost anything. I couldn't afford them.

Yet according to the government, I was not a poor person. Makes me feel real bad for those who truly are poor. Who can't afford an education, (which is the only reason I am no longer poor, though not rich by a long shot.)

 

Who do I blame for poverty? Everyone. The poor as well as the rich. The governments, liberal or conservative. They'd rather give themselves 6% pay increases while the rest of the country is getting laid off, and then say there isn't enough tax money and that the deficit is growing.

 

All governments have the power to stop these things. All governments are corrupt. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely (as far as humans go anyway.) This goes for those CEOs with their multi-million dollar estates in the tropics (which by the way are some of the poorest countries in the world) too.

[HydrogenBond]

Poverty is real but is also subjective. In other words, captialist culture markets a subjective need for things so culture can generate wealth. If one follows the herd, then one can not help but feel poor if one cannot participate in the basic collective subjectivity.

 

If one looked at people 100 years ago, the middle class by those standards may be considered poor by modern standards. The subjective needs were not as strong then; having shelter and sufficient food to eat made one feel lucky, although that would be considered poor by today's subjectivity. Fifty years ago having a TV would make one part of the upper middle class. Today if one does not have more than one TV or a new widescreen one is considered poor. The subjective marketing fear keeps people anxious so they spend money to overcome the induced fear.

 

A good example of this is Christmas shopping. The government and media equates a succesful holiday season based on the amount of money merchants squeeze from the herd, rather than the amount of love and holiday spirit that is created. We are being suckered into a collective anxiety assuring the poor feel the pain for not being able to pay the extortion needed to feel good or superior. This image makes us run in the oppisote direction paying for subjective relief. The price of this feeling continues to rise until even middle income people begin to feel less than adequit.

 

Picture if next Christmas season the middle class decided to get back to the basics of family and ignorred the subjective fear induced by the marketeers and merchants. The result would be massive deflation of prices. With nobody buying all their cargoes no more, many businesses would go out of business. Most of this stuff is made overseas and would effect primarily foriegn employment. The jobs in malls are often filled by people needing more money to pay for Christmas. The loss of buisness would also deflate real estate prices making the lower and middle class be able to afford a higher standard of living with the same money.

[questor]

Cwes, you were not poor, you were financially disadvantaged for awhile. you actually proved my point that poverty is in the head, not the pocketbook. if your head was impoverished, you would still be financially impoverished, instead you did what was necessary to pull yourself up. you are not the only person with that experience and should pride yourself on your recovery. since

your situation has improved, how do you feel about donating 30-40% of

your earnings to the poor ?

[cwes99_03]

As I said, I'm still not rich. I am still paying off my student loans among other things.

Once these things have been accomplished (and actually already I am donating 5% of my income to an organization every month), I will gladly provide more for those who need it.

Do I think that my money should go to some organization like the Red Cross that spends 50% of that money simply on setting up its chapters and paying its board of directors? Absolutely not. Instead, I plan on donating my old car to a friend who lives in public aid housing because her car is having trouble. I have already offered to give her 13 year old son a computer, but a friend of mine had already done so, so I've still got it if anyone knows of someone who could use a 4 year old computer.

[cwes99_03]

Poverty is real but is also subjective. In other words, captialist culture markets a subjective need for things so culture can generate wealth. If one follows the herd, then one can not help but feel poor if one cannot participate in the basic collective subjectivity.

 

If one looked at people 100 years ago, the middle class by those standards may be considered poor by modern standards. The subjective needs were not as strong then; having shelter and sufficient food to eat made one feel lucky, although that would be considered poor by today's subjectivity. Fifty years ago having a TV would make one part of the upper middle class. Today if one does not have more than one TV or a new widescreen one is considered poor. The subjective marketing fear keeps people anxious so they spend money to overcome the induced fear.

 

A good example of this is Christmas shopping. The government and media equates a succesful holiday season based on the amount of money merchants squeeze from the herd, rather than the amount of love and holiday spirit that is created. We are being suckered into a collective anxiety assuring the poor feel the pain for not being able to pay the extortion needed to feel good or superior. This image makes us run in the oppisote direction paying for subjective relief. The price of this feeling continues to rise until even middle income people begin to feel less than adequit.

 

Picture if next Christmas season the middle class decided to get back to the basics of family and ignorred the subjective fear induced by the marketeers and merchants. The result would be massive deflation of prices. With nobody buying all their cargoes no more, many businesses would go out of business. Most of this stuff is made overseas and would effect primarily foriegn employment. The jobs in malls are often filled by people needing more money to pay for Christmas. The loss of buisness would also deflate real estate prices making the lower and middle class be able to afford a higher standard of living with the same money.

Excellent points. Not fully developed, but hey this isn't a lecture, they provide the starting ground for all of you to begin to understand.

[Aumsonata]

Questor, although I agree with you that the poor are not blameless, in the sense that everyone is a moral agent and is capable of decision making, I also think that you are missing the big picture.

 

Poverty is more than a frame of mind, it is a perpetuating cycle. In order for the rich to get and stay rich, they need cheap labor. In order for cheap labor to exist, there needs to be people who are struggling to meet their basic need, who will work for next to nothing.

 

Yah, you might think that everyone has the opportunity to get an education and better themselves but education isn't free ya know. Also one must speak the language of the majority group to go to their schools and many poor people speak a marginalized language. There are many more hurdles along the road to being rich, hell-for basic survival, the poorer that you are.

[questor]

i'm speaking only about the USA in this thread. there are many factors against accumulation of wealth in many countries, the worst problem in most is their own government. in the US, education is ''free'' through high school.

libraries are free, ''how to'' books are cheap. i have never known a young person willing to go to work that couldn't get a job. that doesn't mean a company presidency, and sometimes your talents will never take you to the top, but you will be OK if you put forth the effort.if you aren't fluent in the language, but are diligent and intelligent, you will learn the language and be successful. this may not mean wealth,but you can still have a good life without being a millionnaire. why do you think the poor are poor ?

[cwes99_03]

Questor seems to think 1) that the global economy has no influence on the poverty of Americans. 2) that fiscal responsibility is all that is required to not be "poor"

 

1) the global economy is a cause of poverty in America, so American policy as well as foreign policies are directly the cause of poverty throughout the world. As the global economy continues to grow and more companies spread throughout the entire earth to countries that have lower GDP, then inflation in those countries as well as recession in the "wealthy" countries will bring balance to the international scene. In order to combat this, economists try to keep these companies in the US, or else the US becomes no better than China in 20 years.

 

2) I was fiscally resposible during my "financially disadvanted" time as you choose to call it. There are thousands, nay millions of people in the US that are fiscally responsible, yet still economically poor. Fiscal responsibility simply means stretching the dollar to give yourself the best life within what means you have available. Hence one does not buy a couple of new Mercedes while one is on welfare. There are on the other hand millions of fiscally irresponsible poor people too. But imagine that, there are also fiscally irresponsible rich people, who go and blow a couple of hundred thousand dollars on a couple of new cars and a new home and more, believing that they will have their job and pension forever. Then when the company they work for says they can't afford it all anymore (because of the changing global economy) and that they'll have to reduce their wage from $60/hour to $40/hour to assemble parts in the plant (still more than 2x what I make) they balk and say they can't afford their lifestyle any more.

 

I hate it when people live off of welfare and expect everyone else to take care of them. I hate it more when people file bankruptcy 4-10 times in their life and get debts wiped out, and then run out and buy a new truck a month later (my uncle for example just put a new remote start kit on his truck even though just 2 months ago he filed for bankruptcy.)

 

Now he and I had the same education up through HS. I however was taught by my father how to be fiscally responsible, while he was not taught by his parents but by an economics class in HS, which I didn't take because I proficiency tested out of it.

 

BTW, public education is not equal nor free for anyone. People who live in poor areas pay their taxes just like those in the rich areas. However, property value being much higher in those areas affords their kids a "better" education. Yet these kids are the same ones going and blowing a couple of thousand dollars on drugs and alcohol every weekend just to have a little fun. Is that fiscal responsibility?

 

Questor, I'm sorry, but I think you have your head in the sand as much as Linda does. Maybe that is simply because neither one of you has seen both sides of the issue growing up.

[questor]

Cwes, you seem to have a lot of anger and contradictory statements in your post. this thread asks the question about poverty strictly in the USA, because at this point in time, we have the dominant world economy, the highest standard of living, and a rising GDP. with jobs available, the question is: why does poverty exist in a nation of plenty ? i don't know what situation you are in or what decisions you made that put you there. neither do you know anything about me or the path i've traveled. you can rest assured i am not a social activist or advocate of punishing the producer by rewarding the

non producer. and i have probably more experience than you on the poorer side of life.

[lindagarrette]

 

Questor, I'm sorry, but I think you have your head in the sand as much as Linda does. Maybe that is simply because neither one of you has seen both sides of the issue growing up.

There aren't to sides to the poverty issue. Linda

[cwes99_03]

Yes there are. On the one side you have people who are not impoverished. On the other side you have those who are. Those who are impoverished, know very little about being rich. They might think that it would be the solution to all their problems. Those who are not impoverished, might think that it is easy just to sit around and let the government take care of your every need.

[Racoon]

Cwess99 posts are dead on!

 

People who win lottery who were poor end up just as miserable as they were before.

Money simply makes More of what people really are.

ie Jerk with lots of money becomes Big Jerk!

Good guy with lots of $$ bcomes Really Good Guy.

 

Money should be Related to Options!

no money means no options (ie must steal, deal drugs, depend on welfare)

money means options (ie can buy car, Plasma TV, or Donate to charity)

[otcartsid]

yeah money is options which means freedom. I agree with Racoon about that and the opinion that money simply makes you more of what you are. I find it interesting that money can bring out more of who you are. If you are generous you are capable of being more generous and if you are manipulative you have more means to try to control people, etc.

[questor]

Perhaps it's like i said....poverty is in the head, not in the pocketbook.

[cwes99_03]

Come on questor you are not reading close enough. It is not poverty that is in the head. Poverty occurs to both the industrious and the lazy.

 

Quick question, what is a word the means the opposite of poverty. Whatever word you come up with needs to fit into the following sentence.

 

Blank occurs to both the industrious and the lazy.

[questor]

i would think that almost 100% of mentally and physically lazy people will never achieve success. i would say that 80% of industrious people achieve success. the other 20% have bad health, bad luck, make bad choices. i'll take those odds. poverty is in the head. it's the way you think, it's your attitude, it's your lifestyle, it's your decisions.