The Roots of Poverty in America ?

[questor]

What are the causes of poverty in the USA ? is poverty a lack of money or is it a lack of effort, or character ? is poverty in the pocketbook, or is it in the soul and brain ? i say the latter. we have some people on this site who would

rob from the rich to give to the poor, and while that may solve todays problem, what about long term ? you have done nothing but artificially prop up the individual for a little while, but he is still poor inside. is it better to give a hand out, or a hand up? does the poor person have no responsibility to help himself ? you cannot educate a person, you give him a chance to educate himself. why should a producing person be taxed to support a non producing person? shouldn't every person try to be the best he can be ? since people are not created equal, there will always be a disparity in wealth, but if a person has created self worth, he can always be proud of his achievements. the roots of poverty are

laziness, lack of intelligence, lack of ambition, lack of education and a poor environment.

[Racoon]

I know a bit about the topic as I have taken several Sociology courses in college. :cup:

Poverty happens for several reasons! :cup:

1) Capitalistic institutions are geared toward inequality by nature!

Granted, it is a great system, you really have to be Smart, Prudent, and Innovative. The great thing about America is that anyone CAN achieve monetary success! You have to work hard and be smart. Or just plain lucky. Although it is getting much more difficult.( not EVERYONE can be rich!)

2) Institutional Racism/Sexism: Like it or not it occurs! Blacks and Latinos face what is called a "Glass Ceiling". Also Women face said hurdles, but we have gotten better about it.

3)Maybe the #1 reason most people don't get rich:: You Get Knocked Up!!

or Knock somebody up and get STUCK trying to pay for the kid; in a world that is increasingly more difficult and expensive to raise a kid!!:D

4) Most people live for the now and don't plan for the future.

5) The "Old Money" regime ( ie Bilderburgers, Rockafellers, Illuminati, Bushes, Cheneys, Others ) Already have a stranglehold on Resources, Technologies needed to aquire said wealth !!

 

See my Asian Philosophy thread as you realize that "Wanting" wealth is a Bad way to motivate oneself/ live a life.

[otcartsid]

It's true that poverty has a lot to do with more than just the bank account and I definitely believe that to be poor is a state of mind.

 

While it's fair to say that people need to take responsibility for themselves…and their financial situation, we shouldn’t look down at others for having less money. For example, we can’t all luck out and be gifted with intelligence, self confidence, etc (the ingredients for success) Also it is important to realize how powerful the environment you grew up in can be in shaping your financial future. People need to be educated about money!!! And we need to help out those who aren’t born with a silver spoon.

[CraigD]

… is poverty a lack of money or is it a lack of effort, or character?

I question the implied statement in this.

 

The notion that not having money is indicative of a lack of character, while not new, is becoming more widespread in US, and, I suspect, world culture. It is distinctly at odds with attitudes as recent as 30 years ago, in which relative poverty was often considered virtuous. Members of religious service organizations – nuns, monks, priests, and itinerant clergy – were expected to be poor, as were members elected and unelected “public servants” and members of secular service organizations (the Peace Corp, the Red Cross, etc.). In contrast, people now seem to have few misgivings about clergy, officials, and service organization executives with $million+/year incomes, and millions or even billions of acquired wealth.

 

The flip side of a culture that considers the poor to be morally suspect is that it considers the rich to be morally irreproachable. I believe this is a very wrong and dangerous attitude, as the rich tend to be quite immoral in many socially important areas, and are not, I think, very good role models.

[Boerseun]

I think the roots of poverty lies in the Capitalist System itself.

 

Think about it: The antithesis to a poor person, is a rich person, by definition. Neither of the two can exist without the other. If everybody is given a million bucks, poverty won't be defined, and the money would immediately lose it's value. You wouldn't get your car washed for $5 anymore, because the guy who used to value $5 is now a millionaire in his own right. If you offered him $100,000 for a carwash, it would be a different matter. In other words, the elements keeping inflation from spiralling out of control, are the poor masses who still value a dime.

 

A rich guy isn't rich unless somewhere there's a poor guy begging by the side of the road. And, alternatively, a poor guy won't be poor unless there's a rich guy somewhere to be measured against.

 

Wealth is the ultimate aim of Capitalism, but poverty is inextricably linked to it as the Dark Side, the Flip Side, of defining the wealth generated through Capitalism.

[questor]

Wealth is not guaranteed by capitalism. the opportunity to achieve wealth by your own efforts is the goal of capitalism. wealth is not a zero sum game. wealth creates more wealth, no one has to be poor so you can be rich. the poor are poor because of personal choices, lack of intellect and refusal to follow the steps that make others wealthy. no need to look down on the poor, they create their own life,as does everyone else. wealth is not just money. many people are rich in knowledge or spirit. the truly poor does not care about himself or his environment or others. poverty is in the head and soul, not just in the pocketbook.

[otcartsid]

I think Boerseun makes some interesting points but I still cant say I totally agree with his belief that the capitalist system leads to poverty.

 

The capitalist system seems to make everyone richer. Sure it causes disparity among people but that doesnt necessarily mean that the person with the lesser amount of money is poor (especially when you think about that person's definition of poor compared to somewhere not employing this economic system).

 

It seems like another reason people get into money problems is because of their lack of discipline, etc. Like Racoon said, many people dont plan for their future. They have children they shouldnt? and never learn how to live within their means. Instead they live their life trying to "keep up with the Jones"

[otcartsid]

I like Questor's explanation about the benefits of capitalism..."wealth is not a zero sum game. wealth creates more wealth"

[Boerseun]

I like Questor's explanation about the benefits of capitalism..."wealth is not a zero sum game. wealth creates more wealth"

As far as the mysticism of economics go, I can but offer my opinion:

 

Wealth is indeed a zero sum game. Wealth also creates more wealth. For the wealthy, that is. Because if wealth did generate wealth for the poor as well, the defining value of the currency wealth is measured against, would drop - thereby reducing the value of what currency the previously poor had back to what it was, in other words, back to square one.

 

If we take a universal measurement to measure wealth against, it would become more obvious. Let's stick to my carwash analogy. (It could be a hamburger, a can of Coke, a loaf of bread - the story stay the same)

 

There's a poor guy. He's got a hundred bucks to his name.

There's a rich guy. He's got a million.

The rich guy wants a clean car.

The poor guy is willing to wash it for five bucks.

The value of the transaction, i.e. five bucks fro a clean car, is worthwile to both parties involved. For such a menial task, the millionaire will pay five bucks, 'cause it won't make a dent in is wallet.

The poor guy is willing to wash the car, because to him it's a fair percentage of his worth. It's worth it to break your back for such hard work.

Now, give the poor guy a million.

He won't be willing to do such hard work for such low pay anymore, because five bucks isn't enough. The percentage of work done to net worth is simply too low. He will be willing to do it for $50,000, though.

The rich guy won't pay $50,000 for a carwash, though, because compared to his net worth, the percentage is simply too high.

So now either a carwash goes for $50,000, or we all drive with dirty cars.

Hence inflation.

If that happens, it means the actual value of the rich guy's net worth has come down considerably, because compared to the price of a carwash, his net worth is percentage-wise not so hot.

 

In other words, for the rich guy to be rich and to stay rich, the poor guy simply must stay poor.

 

This is not to say that the poor guy will stay poor forever, and this is simply the only saving grace of Capitalism - he's got the opportunity to become rich. But here's the catch: The poor guy can only become rich by being replaced with another poor guy. So, I'm not saying that Capitalism leads to poverty, as stated in a previous post, all I'm saying is that poverty is a requirement for wealth. And Capitalism necessarily perpetuates existing poverty. Changing that situation and completely getting rid of poverty should cause terminal inflation.

[questor]

a zero sum game means there is only a finite amount of money available and in order for one person to receive more, someone has to lose an equivalent

amount. you can readily see that wealth is not a zero sum game. when a person produces a product to create wealth, his bank will prosper on his deposited funds. whatever tools he uses to market and deliver his product will also prosper, as will the workers he employs to build a larger house, et cetera.wealth begets wealth and improves the standard of living for everyone.

non producers are a drag on society even though they will probably always be with us. instead of coddling these people with welfare payments and entitlements, every effort should be made to get them into the system and become producers in whatever endeavor they can manage. this would eliminate a lot of crime and allow these people to feel pride in their accomplishments.

[Boerseun]

Economics being a zero-sum game would imply that the amount of money in circulation would remain constant. That is not the case, however.

What does remain constant, however, and what underpins the whole economy, is value. The value tied to a loaf of bread remains constant, whether that loaf goes for a dime or a dollar.

And that's where inflation comes in. Inflation erodes the monetary value, meaning that you can't buy a loaf of bread for a dollar with a dollar that's not worth a dollar. Then, if a dollar's not that hard to come by anymore (say, if the amount of rich people increased), a one-dollar loaf will now cost ten dollars, because getting ten dollars is now as hard as it used to be to get one dollar back in the days before wealth became so wide-spread. You buy a loaf of bread with something of equal value.

 

In other words, what you can by for a thousand dollars today will be exactly what you could afford with ten thousand after everybody became rich. Which means a guy owning a thousand bucks today will not be any richer at all with ten thousand tomorrow - he'll be equally poor.

 

Inflation is a son-of-a-*****, and the one simple variable in the equation hampering poverty alleviation. Make all beggars millionaires today, and everybody will have loads of toiletpaper tomorrow - 'cause that'll be all the money will be good for.

[Racoon]

First "Poverty" should be defined clearly

I believe there is a formula that defines poverty by the amount of money that is minimumly required to feed a family of 4. ( somewhere in the $ 18-22,000 dollar category, I don't recall exactly )

Obviously some people make more than that, but because of drugs, booze, child support payments, medical bills, what have you, are still living below this " basic subsistance level "

 

What IS causing poverty ??? :cup:

 

I think globilization of capitalism is a key contributer.

Many Americans are working hard to be sure, but Good Jobs that pay well are getting harder to come by. ( ie Computer jobs that used to pay Great, are now being shipped over to India, where they can do the same for less )

It takes an advanced degree that costs many, many thousands of dollars

to get a whiff of high paying jobs. Or you have to be a Great Athlete!

 

Again, lower paying jobs + kids + rent + food = poverty

 

Old adages are true: It takes money to make money & the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

 

Someone made a good point about a "poverty mindset".

Stupid people usually don't get rich. And we all know most Americans arent Einsteins or Forbes' .

[questor]

rich people are not the problem, poor people are the problem. when i say poor, i'm not talking about a lack of money. i'm talking about a lack of ambition, education, pride, and common sense. these are a drag on society in many ways. these are the druggies, welfare recipients, mothers with multiple illegitimate children, and criminals. these people are a huge financial and emotional drag on society. they are society's lowest common denominator.

[Racoon]

You are right Questor, BUT you use the word "Poverty." Poverty Is " living Below minimal subsistence " and its "roots"

I couldn't agree more about the Druggies, Welfare Moms, overall surplus of idiots. You should also throw in millions of Illegal Aliens :cup:

 

"poverty of mind" is more about what I think your saying.

The "roots" of that are simple ignorance, stupidity, laziness, getting "knocked up " by dudes who go to prison, bad choices, ..........

Like you said.

[Racoon]

OOh, one more thought on Questors last post.

 

"Rich people aren't the problem, poor people are the problem"

 

Thats not necessarily true!

If you're Rich by selling / distrubuting Coke, Meth, Smack Then You ARE part of the problem. :cup:

If you're Rich because you sold Nuclear Secrets to Terrorists, You ARE part of the problem :D

If if you're rich because you have a 100 illegal aliens working in your sweatshop in Chicago, You ARE part of the problem. :D

If your're Rich because you Whacked somebody to get their $$$, You are part of the problem. :D

If you're rich because you lied, cheated, stole, killed, ( Like Enron!! ) then You ARE part of the problem. :)

 

Many rich people have drug problems, illegitamite kids, etc.., BUT they can afford it, so it doesn't seem so bad. ( So you CAN be rich, But still POOR of mind. )

Again Questor is right about People being Poor of mind AND Poor in economic terms; Being an absolute drag on society.

 

This is why I don't agree with the " Everyone is created equal " nonsense!

[lindagarrette]

 

In other words, what you can by for a thousand dollars today will be exactly what you could afford with ten thousand after everybody became rich. Which means a guy owning a thousand bucks today will not be any richer at all with ten thousand tomorrow - he'll be equally poor.

That's not quite how it works. Inflation is a result, not a cause. Value is relative depending on who is buying what, regardless of how much money they have. If a commodity becomes scarce, and is in demand, the price will go up, regardless of inflationary pressures. People with more money can afford it and others will suffer without until a substitute is found. Petroleum is a good example of our changing values. Someday, we will have to find another source of energy because the price of oil will be out of the average person's reach. Rising gas prices fuels inflation, so to speak, not the other way around.

[Boerseun]

That's not quite how it works. Inflation is a result, not a cause. Value is relative depending on who is buying what, regardless of how much money they have. If a commodity becomes scarce, and is in demand, the price will go up, regardless of inflationary pressures. People with more money can afford it and others will suffer without until a substitute is found. Petroleum is a good example of our changing values. Someday, we will have to find another source of energy because the price of oil will be out of the average person's reach. Rising gas prices fuels inflation, so to speak, not the other way around.

Methinks you've missed my point slightly.

If you give everybody a million bucks, inflation will be the result. Not the cause.

If you give everybody a million bucks, the workers at the bakery will not work for minimum wage anymore (remember, they're all millionaires now). Therefore, labour cost will go through the roof. Therefore, the price of a loaf of bread will now rocket from $1 a loaf to a kazillion dollars a loaf, because production costs, i.e. labour, flour (remember, the farm workers are also demanding more - they're also millionaires now) etc., all costs involved in baking a loaf will go up. The guy who had a ten million dollars before everybody got issued with a million, now have eleven million. Before everybody became millionaires, a loaf of bread was 0.00001% of his net worth. Now, after the price increase, if the loaf goes for $100, it will represent 0.009% of his net worth. And that's including the million he got issued with, bringing his total to 11 million. In other words, in real terms, he's a lot less rich than he was before. His wealth is dependent on the others being, and staying, poor.

 

Inflation is an inevitable result of everybody rolling in dough.