Understanding Time...?

[arkain101]

I was getting kind of carried away there.. there has been some reliable tests to show that SR works but, then again we havnt mastered it yet.

 

It would seem logical that if SR is true then the universe is one big something, the empty vacume of space contains the the hidden unifying theory of everything. If there is a velocity in reference to a point in space-time fabric, then we should probably assume that space-time is sitting still, and not one area of space contains nothing as it would generally be assumed. I ponder the thought that the invisible part of space that looks to have no matter is infact the source of which all is from. If you can imagine a different dimension of energy for example, almost like aether but not individual particles. Then light energy is a disturbanced in this different dimensional energy that when comes in contact with "matter" shakes it around, and actaully may not be its own thing, but an illusion is created to create the assumption that light is a thing, where it could be the result of a disturbance occuring in a different thing. In fact there is nowhere in space that there is nothing. Radiation is smaller than anything right? and If you think about it, no matter where one would choose to go in space they would absolutly always see a source of light, aka stars. So In almost infinite directions space is a blasting of frequencies in a fabric that is at rest, which contricts matter and maybe even time, and causes the electro magnetic effect to operate at a constant time scale and velocity.

[Tormod]

could these variations of time be functions of the clocks themselves ? if you had 10 different clocks, would the time differential be the same in all 10 ?

 

Time has nothing more to do with clocks than rulers have with distance.

[questor]

Tormod, what you say about time is true, but does not address my question.

the question is; does time itself show differences at different locations and different velocities or can it be the inaccuracy of instruments ? is there a location which could be used as standard time where time remains stable and continuous, otherwise time is always variable.

[CraigD]

… the question is; does time itself show differences at different locations …

Locations - no, provided they’re stationary relative to one another, and an object at both locations experiences the same magnitude of acceleration due to gravity. Oherwise, yes, the rate of passage of time at the 2 locations is different.

… and different velocities …

Yes, the passage of time at locations (eg: planets, different places on the surface of a rotating planet, vehicles) in motion relative to one another is different.

or can it be the inaccuracy of instruments?

As noted above, current clocks are a couple of ten thousands of times precise enough to detect relativistic time dilation. As to accuracy, there is no well accepted explanation that would account for the observed change in passage of time being the same as measured by different means (eg: atomic resonance, the decay of subatomic particles) as being due to identical induced inaccuracies. It’s widely accepted that all means of measuring time would experience the same relative changes. It’s therefore meaningful to say that, rather than every possible means of measuring it changing, the passage of time itself changes.

is there a location which could be used as standard time where time remains stable and continuous, otherwise time is always variable.

Relative to that location, time is stable and continuous at every location, so any location is suitable for determining a standard time. As you’d expect, we Earthlings get our standard time (TAI – an acronym from the French for International Atomic Time) from weighted averages (taking into account differences in gravity and motion due to differences in latitude and height) of several locations on the Earth’s surface (one just down the street from me in Laurel, MD, USA).

 

If we ever need to determine an accurate time at some other place (such as on a GPS satellite, or, someday, a planet of a distant star), we can just calculate a relative time dilation factor and multiply TAI by it. As with nearly any standard, it’s not very important what/where the standard actually is, so long as everybody agrees and understands it enough for their needs.

[lindagarrette]

Time "slowing down" is a figure of speach, so to speak. Since time is a concept, and a frame of reference for sequences of events in the space/time universe, the location of objects relative to an observer (well, a point) will differ in accordance with the dilation factor. That doesn't mean time has varied. Just that everything you see happened in the past, and the further away it was, the longer in the past it occurred.

[Turtle]

Time "slowing down" is a figure of speach, so to speak. Since time is a concept, and a frame of reference for sequences of events in the space/time universe, the location of objects relative to an observer (well, a point) will differ in accordance with the dilation factor. That doesn't mean time has varied. Just that everything you see happened in the past, and the further away it was, the longer in the past it occurred.

It most assuredly does not mean that. If you sit a little toy boat on a calm pond & throw in a stone near it, the 'number' of 'times' the little boat bobs up & down is determined by how far from the center of the pebble plunk [field disturbence[ it is. That is to say the frequency (how 'often' the 'time' 'counting' occcurs) of the bobbing is 'relative' to the source of the wave (vibration). The farther from the source you put the boat, the lower & slower it bobs. Even then, the ripples of your stone still bob themselves at the same rate [faster/higher] ever making new ripples until the other electrogmanetically manifest energy stills the water. Furthermore, the boat does not bob at a different rate unless it moves at right angles relative to the stones plunk.

The field of the stones plunk is getting bigger outside, & littler inside. If you don't believe this, go throw some stones in a pond to confirm it. Take a little boat too.

 

 

:Glasses:

[CraigD]

Time "slowing down" is a figure of speach, so to speak. Since time is a concept, and a frame of reference for sequences of events in the space/time universe, the location of objects relative to an observer (well, a point) will differ in accordance with the dilation factor.

Although a complete understanding of the various predictions of Relativity require an understanding of both effects, the delay in observing distant events associated with the finite speed of light,

first demonstrated in 1667

, is a very different effect then time dilation, first demonstrated in 1941. The “slowing of time” associated with time dilation is a real, objectively measurable effect, not a metaphor or figure of speech.

[Tarantism]

well, from my observation, time tends to also appear to move quickly based on how much i am paying attention to the clock. is this just because my mind is occupied with other things, or is there an actualy theory behind why this happens?

[lindagarrette]

The “slowing of time” associated with time dilation is a real, objectively measurable effect, not a metaphor or figure of speech.

You are not paying attention. Apparent "slowing of time" is the time dilation effect. Its measurement is dependent on the space/time frame of the observer. Time is a concept not an object, or a metaphor. The term "slowing of time" is a colloquial descrption of the effect, since that is not what actually occurs.

[Guest jamongo]

I do not know if this link has been previously provided. I did attempt a search, on this forum,of "spacetime" and came up with 7 pages, 25 posts per page. Too many for me to read through, so I thought I would provide this link for those seeking some answers relative to this space-time thing.

I thought the article was very interesting and it did help me to see things in a different light: more clearer, if you will. I copied the article and read it at my leasure when there were no distractions (Telephones, doorbells, e-mail alerts, children, adults, dogs, etc.) That happened to be about 4 A.M.

So have a look and see if it helps you a bit.

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/jsfhome/Think4d/spactime.html

 

Good reading and good luck.

 

Jamongo

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Infamous:

There is much we don't know about either; Time or Gravity. If we could understand these two characters better, we would find answers to many other physical mysteries.

As simple as that statement is, in my mind it indicates a better grasp of time than usual. Have you been following the conversation about the meaning of 'now'?

I am of the opinion that both gravity and time are effects and not individual discreet phenomenon. We assume that time drives all events because we do see a correlation internally (in our brains) between change and our concept of time. However, the clue that time might not exist outside of our heads is in the fact that whenever I look out at the world all I see is now.

It's a subtle point but one that I think should be considered.

This gets into the nature of perception and applies to our relationship to the universe.

We assume time exists externally. But what if that is an optical illusion caused by the fact that we have memory and our very short term memory detects change and the 'nowness' of a moment ago is almost identical to the 'nowness' of now?

If you have read any of my defense of McCutcheon's book, you've probably come across the fact that it expresses the belief that gravity is just an effect and that there isn't anything in existence that we can measure that is truly gravity. If that is possible, then it is also possible that there are other phenomenon that are also fallacies caused by an optical illusion.

[Tarantism]

optical illusion?

 

isnt that visionary?

 

i would say that most of the illusions that we experience are mental or in our own minds.

 

just a theory. but i think that you are onto something.

[lindagarrette]

I thought the article was very interesting and it did help me to see things in a different light: more clearer, if you will. I copied the article and read it at my leasure when there were no distractions (Telephones, doorbells, e-mail alerts, children, adults, dogs, etc.) That happened to be about 4 A.M.

So have a look and see if it helps you a bit.

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/jsfhome/Think4d/spactime.html

 

Good reading and good luck.

 

Jamongo

Hogwash. The Internet is full of such junk. Don't trust everything you find on the Web. Look at the sources and references. Go to "Ask the Scientist" or some similar autority for lay explanations of such topics.

[questor]

if time is illusory or ''perception'', of what use is carbon dating or watches? or history? what proof exists of time performing differently in different parts of the universe?

[questor]

if time is curved, in what direction is it curved and what makes it curve?

[Tormod]

if time is curved, in what direction is it curved and what makes it curve?

 

Brilliant question.

 

I don't think it makes sense to think of time in a spatial manner, though. There is talk of "closed, timelike loops" which do sound like a geometry issue but it's something else entirely. I think geometry is a consequence of spacetime, and as such time is one of the factors that curve space, but I don't think time *on it's own* should be considered curved or arched. Rather it has a direction. I also don't think that time has a "velocity" - it is the relative movement of an object that determines the relative passage of time.

 

In quantum phsyics there is a lot of room for particles that travel back in time. On a more human level I'm not sure the concept makes sense.

 

I find it very interesting, though.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Questor:

if time is illusory or ''perception'', of what use is carbon dating or watches? or history?

Perception is what's 'given' and we take for granted as being true. An illusion is when our interpretaion of the perception is false. When I first brought up yahoo messenger on my machine I was not aware of its 'creaking door' ability. When someone on your buddy list signs off you get that stupid noise. Well, the first time I heard it I got up, went upstairs, checked all the doors. That is illusion and is still the butt of some jokes around the house (I didn't realize it until the 3rd time!). Funny.

The sound was true, the interpretation false.

Another thread is discussing 'now' and it applies to all discussions of time.

There are some (I'm one of them) who believe that existence is the territory (the land the trees the ground the wind, etc.) and what we know of it (our memory of it from experiencing a series of 'nows') is the map. Some of the same people believe that time and all concepts related to it are part of the map and only part of the map. I'm still kind of up in the air on that part of it.

They believe that outside of ourselves, in the territory, there is only now.

But something drives change and it might not be time. Another way of putting it is if time does exist, it isn't a driver of change, just a passenger or vapor trail. We can still use that vapor trail to tell us about prior moments. Carbon dating and watches are still useful shovels for digging into our map.