Alternative fuels...how much longer

[somebody]

A small comment about Hydrogen:

 

In my G-Chem lab, i was collecting hydrogen gas in an inverted test tube after some reaction and then i was suppose to do a flame test on it. After putting a match inside the inverted test tube, in a split second the whole test tube EXPLODED (luckly i was wearing protection on my eye and on my hands). It really scare the crap out of me so i suggest it is best not to use hydrogen as fuel in cars.

 

It is best to keep Hydrogen under some professional suppervision.

[Boerseun]

A small comment about Hydrogen:

 

In my G-Chem lab, i was collecting hydrogen gas in an inverted test tube after some reaction and then i was suppose to do a flame test on it. After putting a match inside the inverted test tube, in a split second the whole test tube EXPLODED (luckly i was wearing protection on my eye and on my hands). It really scare the crap out of me so i suggest it is best not to use hydrogen as fuel in cars.

 

It is best to keep Hydrogen under some professional suppervision.

You work for the oil industry, dontcha?

 

Hydrogen reacts explosively with Oxygen, and that's just what makes it so admirable as a fuel! It's abundant, and it goes BOOM...

 

Same with normal gasoline. It also goes BOOM under vapourised, pressurised conditions. But that hasn't stopped us from using it as a fuel, and nobody drives a car under professional supervision...

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

It just isn't fair!!!!!!!! South of here they have E85 everywhere!!! My truck is actually supposed to be fed E85 but only gas is available here. It's just not fair!! Not only can I not get the stuff here but it was also a buck a gallon cheaper than gas! 60 miles south it's plentiful. It's not fair!

[palmtreepathos]

I've also heard of water fueled engines in PopMechs.

I have no idea on how that one works. (x-ept for the water)

 

 

This part of DFINITLYDISTRUBD's first post on alternative fuels went untouched. I know this is probably thought of as a joke in the scientific community but is there a thread addressing it in Hypography? Anywhere? Are the YouTube videos all a scam? the people interviewed liars? or fools?

This is an "alternative fuel" thread but water fuel cells seem to have been avoided.

I enjoy hearing from everyone on the various fuelcell types and problems (diplomatic brainiac CragD, enterprising arkain101, knowledgeable kayra, fearless Boerseun ) but does this not even deserve a flame? Maybe I missed the memo. ;)

 

YouTube - Oxy Hydrogen Process (Water Fuel Cell) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrDpzYkgQT0&mode=related&search=

 

Say why this is an impossibility other than that the infrastructure and economy is not flexible enough to adapt to it...

And who says you have to store it anyway? The fuel cells I have seen online and in videos produce the hydrogen and use it "on demand" I have a mental picture of cars being retrofitted to "hydrogen on demand" one car at a time....:) <<<< poor fool?

 

And will it require the quasi-altruistic gesture that arkain101 suggests to just bypass the glory?

 

I am very tempted to freely release all the designs and concepts just for the purpose of making the difference and change I am after.

 

Or NKT'S view of avoiding the economic and political power bases that would inhibit the inventor's discovery (even if it truly is workable knowledge!!)?

 

If you want to change the world, you don't want to go and get a career at some big company as an "inventor", even if you could. The person telling you what to invent would get the glory, if any was to be had, as well as the money. You'll just get annoyed.

 

To change the world, have the idea, make a prototype, then sell it, or sell the idea. Repeat until you are rich enough to follow up your more expensive and exotic ideas. You couldn't build a hydrogen car from scratch, let alone the hundreds that would be needed to compete with GM or Ford, so go work on a motor. Sell them the motor design.

 

Does the "hands off" attitude I see in this thread mean that no one else finds the "water fuel cell" fascinating?

[freeztar]

Funny post, but H2O is the same as OH2. :)

[Michaelangelica]

This was an interesting segment on Catalyst last night about obtaining hydrogen from algae.

Facinatining stuff!

I wish I had Branson's or Gate's money to invest in some of these emerging technologies.

 

[Hydrogen HWY - October 4

 

We’re running out of oil, the backbone of modern economies and the fuel of western civilisation.

The challenge that faces us is not only to find a replacement, but to find one that will not contribute greenhouse gases to the atmosphere. What’s needed is a clean, green and powerful fuel for the future.

Car manufacturers around the world are investing heavily in several fuel alternatives – and one of the most attractive is Hydrogen.

Dr. Paul Willis examines the many obstacles now being negotiated by Australian scientists keen to drive us into a Hydrogen fuelled future.

 

Read transcriptTranscript

 

Ben Hankamer: We’re looking at some photosynthetic green algae that produce hydrogen. They absorb sunlight and they split water and they produce hydrogen from the water.

Catalyst: Home - ABC TV Science

Catalyst: Hydrogen HWY - ABC TV Science

Q Can the algae be used for de-salination too Ben?

AHi Michael,

 

Theoretically, yes. This is because the combustion of H2 and oxygen gas released from sea water by algae, yields

fresh water.

To facilitate water capture, the H2 and oxygen must be converted to electricity using larger scale

fuel cells connected for example to the national grid.

 

cheers,

ben

 

 

Sorry too slow a connection fo0r Utube.

[palmtreepathos]

Sooooo...... these are just scams? com'on I can take it... are they "them that's doing"? Or snake oil salesmen? You decide....but please share your judgements here...

YouTube - Hydrogen HHO Electrolyzer ASTONISHING RESULTS!!! 2007/08/10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQHIO2kw58&mode=related&search=

 

YouTube - Hydrogen HHO Zero Cell 1st MILEAGE TESTS!! 2007/08/31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc3mUwx8BAw&NR=1

 

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQHIO2kw58&mode=related&search= http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQHIO2kw58&mode=related&search=

 

I know that others are talking about this...

 

YouTube - Water Car ... Daniel Dingel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw&mode=related&search=

 

It is important to note that in the process of splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen using electrolysis, the input energy required to split oxygen and hydrogen is, usually, greater than the energy given off in the reaction (burning of hydrogen) of combining hydrogen and oxygen to produce water, which is what is happening inside the engine when the hydrogen is burned to run the vehicle. In the case of Dingel’s invention, he used a DC battery for the electrolysis. So, in short, it is like the DC battery that runs the car, which is pretty much impossible because the energy stored in the DC battery is so small to run a car, like what Dingel showed.

This is the point of discussion, how did Daniel Dingel do that? If he only used the process of electrolysis to split the oxygen and hydrogen to run the vehicle, then what he had claimed to be his invention is either a false invention where he just cheated on his presentation or he violated the law of nature in the chemical reaction process

 

 

and this is what accured supposedly.

He was using oil vapor from his breather and heating them up in the exhaust system before going to the carbereta or throtal body. Then he was adding steam or a water mist from his radiator which is called a water and oil emulsion (type water and oil emulsion in ya search and have a read. Use (?) as a search engine as Google takes most of the water fuel stuff away with big brother.

Water-in-oil fuel emulsions achieve smaller droplet size by a phenomenon known as “secondary atomization.” When this fuel enters the combustion chamber, it is atomized into 75 to 100 micron sized droplets. However, the emulsified water within each drop of oil flashes into steam, exploding it into thousands of smaller droplets. Secondary atomization can increase the combustible surface area per volume of fuel oil by as much as 100 times.

I use a heater between my oil breather and intake which’s gives me an increase in power an economy. My unit could be built better but it works. I am working on building a unit that makes steam from the radiator and will add this eventually. (6 other fuel saving projects happening as well so I cant do all of them at once)

Also in Daniel dingles patent is a modification in his ignition coil set up. One of them involves using a capacitor e.g. 1000uf at 50-100volt. (I’v tried this and it works) Put the positive of the capacitor on the positive of the coil and put the negative side of the capacitor to earth of the car. This makes a heaps bigger spark to burn oil and is also good for burning oil in a smoky engine to reduce the smoke.

Your normal ignition has high voltage and high voltage isn’t the key to bigger spark. Amperage is that’s why we use the extra capacitor and that’s why Daniel dingle uses it. I know the theory is that amps burns points but that’s why we use a capacitor. If ya worried about ya points getting hotter or burning quicker put 2 condensers in parreral and that will solve that problem.

I encourage people to have a read about oil and water emulusion to understand it more which will give you ideas on improving economie or using the system as an add on to your fuel system to understand it. Don’t forget about the map sensor if ya using efi. Modify it to a manual adjustment cause the map senser gets tricked into putting more fuel in if it senses a vacuum change.

I could go on and on about this but im a slow typer but I see alot of negative comments bagging projects that people say don’t work cause some one else cant figure it out. Also im convinced that vested interest is on these sites encouraging you not to try it acting as normal people like you and I. It’s funny because the same people believe that the Joe cell doesn’t work yet there are so many working units around on the underground so to speak.

Imp a doer more than a speaker but iv tried various experiments of all sorts and have found some work (which I still see people bag over the net (arm chair scientist) yet they don’t try it or believe other people when they say it doesn’t work cause we are all skeptical.

I find the key to experimenting is an open mind. This has helped me work out what went wrong for me to fix an experiment.

Damien Holyoak

Brisbane

Australia

Earth

One more thing to add.

Doing electrolysis isn’t the only answer to making hydrogen. I think too many people get stuck on this and can go backwards. Stan Meyer may have had a successful unit but it is still not properly understood by most people. The closest thing iv seen work is the Joe cell but it has to be understood as this is a completely different approach using electrolysis. Alex sniffer books will make you understand the unit better. I can link you to a good Joe cell forum where there are working cars running on this if you ask me. Also play on ya search engines on what reacts with water as well. E.G. 200 grams of costic soda in a one litre bottle half filled with water and add strips of alfoil then shak it and leave it still and put a bollon on top of the bottle then lit the bollon when it lights. Then if ya confident start using aluminum cans with 300 grams of costic soda in a 5 litre glass jar with a small hole in the top of the metal lid and lit it after 5 mins. Use squashed cans of cause.

This isn’t the answer to a water powered car but it will get you down the street for 40kms by it self (please use a bubbler as caustic eats alloy manifolds and use steel units or stainless) if done right

but the objective here is...to look and see what else reacts with water as there are heaps of things but vested interest block on the search engines the info

 

My last question is... does the "Water-in-oil fuel emulsion" and mix of hydrogen replace gasoline? is eliminating the refinery cost effective or is this just another expensive way to run a motor?

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

palmtreepathos RE post #89

I simply haven't touch on it because reliable info on using water to power an engine is rather hard (for my internet-inept-self anyway) to come by I have therefore hoped that those interested in (or inspired by) the subject and more able to actually find such info would post it here or in a similar thread...it really doesn't matter which just as long as the info submitted isn't made up B>S>. Personally I hope that your post lit some fires under the right derriers to get this info posted, proven or disproven!!!!!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Water injection

I have seen diesels retrofited to inject water into the jugs with significant gains in HP and MPG...the only downsides- It's dificult to tune (detonation is much more violent)

you need another fuel tank for water, plus plumbing, an appropriately rated pump and finding the right bits for the conversion can be rather expensive. Also if you live in an environment where temps drop below freezing heating and insulating the water tank and lines is a must.

But this is not a water powered engine but merely water enhanced. Much the same as a propane injection boosted diesel is still a diesel (though quite a bit more powerful!).

[palmtreepathos]

Thanks for starting this thread DFINITLYDISTRUBD :hyper:

In my Reply the term "water fuel cell" may be a misnomer... there is water and a catalyst(making electrolyte), metal plates and an electrical charge that are combined to generate a release of hydrogen gas molecules...

It seems to be able to then generate electricity or boost gas efficiency. In one scenario it seems to be combined with oil vapor and that needs to be explored. Does that create as much pollution as a gas engine? Less? Will it help stretch the oil era and cut back on emmissions?

Inquiring minds want to know!!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

It's my dream that ambient EMF radiation will someday power everything.

It's free, it's found throughout the universe, and it's inexhaustible. (Unless the entire universe comes to an end...in which case your screwed anyway!)

Fuel cells don't pruduce as much water as was used to make the hydrogen to power them.

Nor do engines that burn hydrogen.

All chemical processes consume to produce and the result is always less matter is left some is always lost as heat, light, or electricity.

 

Consumtion of resources leads to depletion of resources which leads to scarcity. Then what... your back in the same boat you were in before only worse off you now must find a new fuel source (with fewer options than before)...as this repeats you exhaust that one then the next and so on untill eventually you run out of resources to consume.

 

It would be far better to focus on the inexhaustible from the start.

[Michaelangelica]

It's my dream that ambient EMF radiation will someday power everything..

B):confused::confused:

EMF's Natural Versus Man-made in the Non-ionizing Spectral Region

 

In less than a century very few people realize how much and how quickly we have changed the non-ionizing electromagnetic environment we live in. Most of the changes have happened in the last 30 years.

Now, all living things are subject to million of times more radiation than 50 years ago. For billions of years, the electromagnetic environment was virtually "silent" in the spectral region below visible light which was the most abundant source of electromagnetic energy.

We will never be able to experience this peaceful world again Nature's sources of oscillating low frequency EMFs are few and extremely weak; the only sources are the sun, distant radio stars and other cosmic RF sources, and the terrestrial sources originating from lightning primarily in the tropics.

 

Even the sun can not be considered a strong source of energy in the non-ionizing spectral region, making natural ambient levels so low that the possibilities of biological or even health effects are negligible [ref.1].

We will never experience that "quiet" world again.

The greatest changes have all come after World War II with a trend towards the use of higher energy radio waves for long-distance communication and electronic devices of all types. Since then nearly every human action has involved an electrical appliance, and today we are all awash in a sea of artificial electromagnetic energies living species have never experienced before.

The human species has changed its electromagnetic exposures more than any other aspect of the environment.

For example, with the explosion in radio and TV broadcasting stations, radio telephone networks, cordless phones and cell phones, the density of radio waves and microwaves around us is now many millions of times higher than the natural levels in the same spectral region.

Fig. 10: Exponential growth in background non-ionizing radiation. Grave concern was expressed by the European Parliament after a series of hearings on the matter of RF/MW frequency EMF health effects (Resolution B3-0280/92): "Thus in the frequency range 100 kHz to 300 GHz, 50 years ago it was scarcely possible to measure 10 pW/cm2 (10-12 W/cm2) on the ground in our countries.

Today, depending on the location, values one million to one thousand million times higher are recorded because of the explosion of telecommunications"

:confused::confused::confused::confused:.

More here

EMF Radiation News

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Very interesting....Thanks. From the various programs I 've watched on PBS and other education oriented chanels I gathered the the opposite was true... Not nocking your post just realizing that it would probably be a good idea for me to research this further...Of course with all of the manmade EMF out there finding a means of harnessing it for consumption still could prove usefull for transportation and home use.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

"Have you ever thought that the only meaning to your existence might be as a warning to others?"

Why yes....yes I have!!! But for my lack of prosperity , sanity, dignity, and modesty I am you!