What IS space?

[Turtle]

;)

 

************************************

 

Excuse me, Sir. You asked me a question and in all the excitement, I forgot what it was. It - consequently - couldn't have been of much importance.

:)

 

And yet you answered it succinctly. Such courtesy is rare. To my larder I repare, the beter there, experiments prepare, where hangs from ceiling yon, Foucalt's Bob & yet more ,just three feet ne'r, the parts his gyroscope in lair.

What manner of movement yields, when lonely fields to each come near? Swimmingly...just swimmingly.:)

[sergey500]

So infamous, basicly your saying space is energy? Well I actuelly meant that space is something. As I said before, in my first post, space is something, it can not be nothing...nothing just doesn't exist.

[sergey500]

ColdCreation...you lost me at ZPE and ZPF. I have never heard of these termss, but you just made me feel quite stupid. So basicly all your saying is what "figured out" is really common fact? Then...this whole post is pointless if the answer is right there. But what your also saying is space is like ballon where it lets the energy expand, like in ballon air does. But then what is this "ballon" made out of. Kind of stupid question, because then we keep getting smaller and smaller asking what is this and that made out of.

 

Anyway back to the "ballon". So like that famous quote said "space is just a stage where things happen on", we now ask the question, what is the stage, what this space? ...so i got what space can be filled with or as infamous said it is "what creates space", but what is holding is now the new question, am I correct? or did i completely lose your train of thought?

 

Oh, coldcreation, in post 159 you said "3-d topological.." isn;t that wrong? I am not expert, i just might've forgotten my termnology but isn't a topograph ad 2D representation of 3D surface from the top...its only one angle, it not 3d. Ok i got it, space is surface, a 3-d surface that leads things to happen, but either way, WHAT IS IT? What leads this surface to be a source for thihngs to happen? it has to be something, i didn see you answer what it could be? If you did, can you please rephrase it in metophorical way that even an idiot can understand.

[sergey500]

Umm, i just want to say...most of page 18 was private conversations, escaping my oringal question...which many of you probably answered and it escaped me. Do me a favor, if you have something immensly large to say, please analithicly rewrite it in some metamorphical mental display...i am very visual person.

[Turtle]

Umm, i just want to say...most of page 18 was private conversations, escaping my oringal question...which many of you probably answered and it escaped me. Do me a favor, if you have something immensly large to say, please analithicly rewrite it in some metamorphical mental display...i am very visual person.

 

On the contrary; the most important responses to your original question are on page 18. That you do not see it is clear. I happen to think I understand what Puff has described, & said as much in the post at top of page 18. I understood him to say space is no less or more than interactions of expanding electromagnetic fields. Interference patterns in other words that don't manifest as matter.

For a personal visual display of interference of waves, throw a pebble in a pond, then right after throw in a boulder, then right after throw in a handful of gravel. Now sit quietly & examine the patterns of the interacting waves.

Repeat. Hope this helps Sergy:)

[sergey500]

Turtle, Ah i got that, but wasn't that on 17th page? That was the one that took me awhile to read since i was trying tind loophole and problem in his answer (when someone gives me answer, i always try to prove it wrong...sometime people aren't always right, sometime you just need to learn for yourself) . But if i did miss something I will go back and read 18...tomorrow...i am off to bed now, my nuerons went out for lunch.

[Tormod]

Dear IrishEyes:

I just clicked on your profile, but don't see a way to receive your message, which I'm entirely willing to abide by. No. I didn't see that you're an Administrator but I surely am trying to stay in line, here. No. Offense intended. Is the message in my Email. I'm going to check it post haste. If it's not there, will you please instruct me how to receive it?

Respectfully,

- Puff

 

Click on the User CP link up in the left corner and look for "Private Messages".

 

Also, under Options in your User CP you should choose to be informed via e-mail or a popup window that you have a new private message.

[Turtle]

___We now return to the regular broadcast. :)

___Hello Sergey, Mark, et al.

___Having so described 'what is space', there is the matter of what is time. As Sergey has asserted his authority over this thread as his space, I propose setting aside a seperate space by my own authority to discus the ramifications of questions now here elucidated.

___In no uncertain terms: my further discussion of this and all related topics is now continuing in the lounge under the title 'The Walking Stick & The

Turtle. Exclusively Hypography; admittance by permission only ; rigorously FAQ

[coldcreation]

ColdCreation...you lost me at ZPE and ZPF. I have never heard of these termss, but you just made me feel quite stupid. So basicly all your saying is what "figured out" is really common fact? Then...this whole post is pointless if the answer is right there. But what your also saying is space is like ballon where it lets the energy expand, like in ballon air does. But then what is this "ballon" made out of. Kind of stupid question, because then we keep getting smaller and smaller asking what is this and that made out of.

 

Anyway back to the "ballon". So like that famous quote said "space is just a stage where things happen on", we now ask the question, what is the stage, what this space? ...so i got what space can be filled with or as infamous said it is "what creates space", but what is holding is now the new question, am I correct? or did i completely lose your train of thought?

 

Oh, coldcreation, in post 159 you said "3-d topological.." isn;t that wrong? I am not expert, i just might've forgotten my termnology but isn't a topograph ad 2D representation of 3D surface from the top...its only one angle, it not 3d. Ok i got it, space is surface, a 3-d surface that leads things to happen, but either way, WHAT IS IT? What leads this surface to be a source for thihngs to happen? it has to be something, i didn see you answer what it could be? If you did, can you please rephrase it in metophorical way that even an idiot can understand.

 

OK, moving right along: check this out.

 

The balloon analogy fails across the board. There is no expansion.

 

The surface is actually a 4-D continuum, not three.

But as your question regards space and not time, I left out the t dimension.

 

Yes, the cosmological constant does have to do with space, absolute space.

 

It does not matter if this absolute space is unattainable, just as it makes no difference if absolute zero temperature is attainable or not.

 

The fact that there is an ultimate limit is clear enough.

 

Space cannot be emptied indefinitely, there is a limit at zero. Just as temperature cannot be lowered indefinitely. This concept is very important.

 

Zero point energy ZPE and zero point fluctuations ZPF are both irreducible properties of the vacuum, just as the thermal flux of an electron is continuous in an atom, thereby preventing temperature from dropping further, to zero K. (the analogy with temperature only goes so far, but so far so good).

 

Hope that all is clear as space.

 

Rascal, no, I do not abide, believe or fear a heat death. The second law had been grossly misinterpreted, just as redshift z and a host of other observations. Entropy has nothing to do with an eventual heat death. Quite the contrary, the universe always has been, and will always be a very cool place.

 

Coldcreation

[lindagarrette]

.. the universe always has been, and will always be a very cool place.

 

Coldcreation

Well, it has always been cooling off. But relative to now, it was hotter. Duh!

[sergey500]

Coldcreation, What do you mean there is no expansion? Of course a ballon expand and contrast by itself, just like you said; temperture. When tempertures cold, the atoms contact, thus the ballon gets smaller, hotter and the atoms get excited pushing limits of ballon. Same with space, space can expanding (nobody knows, lets just say it does for sake of argument ), but instead of atoms, the galaxies do the moving. Or...I misunderstood (most likely I did)

 

oh and what is rep power?

[Drosera]

Sergey,

 

I realize the following answer is ultra-simplistic, and not what you are looking for. But it has always helped me visualize(?) the essence of what our universe might be.

 

"The universe, and all the matter and energy contained within in, are simply a re-expression of sheer nothingness."

 

Isaac Asimov

 

Learning Physics, circa 1961

[sergey500]

Uh, that didn't help me because i didn't understand it. So he saying that...nothingness is really all the matter and energy? or ... I am confused.

[EWright]

 

oh and what is rep power?

 

Your rep power is the same stuff space is made out of. Careful you must be, or suffer a black hole's fate, you may. :)

[coldcreation]

Well, it has always been cooling off. But relative to now, it was hotter. Duh!

 

Hmm... The thermal history of the universe depends on which theory you abide by. The standard model has a universe hotter in the past (duh?), but the big bang is mythology, not cosmology. The universe has been colder in the past according to an alternative model. To date there is no undisputed proof, or clear evidence if you prefer, that the CMB was warmer in the past. We should not fall into the trap of believing everything we read. Keep an open mind. There is a strong likely hood that indeed the big bang is not representative of the real universe in the past. And so, space was not created, cannot be created, was not hotter, does not expand, has always been cool. Cool?

 

Sergey500, you understood correctly, no expansion...

Coldcreation

[Drosera]

Hi Sergey,

 

In relation to my previous statement, this is how I explain it to myself. If space (nothingness) were a white sheet spread flat, the tiny wrinkles in it would be energy (waves). If you were to lift a part of the sheet so that it formed a sort of bump on the sheet, that would be matter.

 

The statement says that the constituates of the universe are basically made from space/nothingness.

 

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. But at my currently level of understanding (which is basically none), it satisfies me on philosophical and conceptual grounds.

 

Take care!

[sergey500]

Your rep power is the same stuff space is made out of. Careful you must be, or suffer a black hole's fate, you may. :)

 

I do not understand. Yoda-nese is foreign to me, as star wars fan, i am not. Seriously, what does it mean?