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What Should We Do With This Guy?


Deepwater6
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6 members have voted

  1. 1. What should we do with the anti-Islamic video maker?

    • Prosecute him for the riots and deaths he incited
      0
    • Deport him
      0
    • Nothing
    • Apologize for him
      0
    • None of the above (explain in a post)


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http://abcnews.go.com/US/probation-officers-question-anti-islam-filmmaker-overnight/story?id=17244562

 

I agree with Knothead that the US can be it's own worst enemy as stated in another thread, but now that it's happend what should we do with this guy?

should we let the fundamentalist's dictate what we do with him? Should the US apologize for letting him make the video? Has the Arab spring not turned out as expected? Did the masses use this film as an excuse for not getting the life Americans have after their revolts?

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If you believe in the First Amendment, this guy had every right to make a fool of himself in public.

 

He's not really any more responsible for these riots than anyone else. Quite frankly, the statements of some of our most recent presidential candidates have been far more inflammatory than the film.

 

Despite what the right-wing noise machine has been churning out, the administration has *not* "apologized for the US", nor is it in our interests to do so, no matter where you are on the political spectrum.

 

As I mentioned in the other thread, the key problem here is not just our overt government policies, but the fact that we've done a horrible PR job by letting the local governments get away with actively promoting anti-Americanism among their restive populace in the name of keeping those governments "stable". It is depressing, but the fact is that these rioters truly believe that the crap this guy produces is "approved by the US Government".

 

So would condemning him or apologizing for him do any good? Nope.

 

So why bother to do so? The problem is in getting our messages out there and educating the world about our values.

 

There's little we can do in the short run to solve the problem, but if we're consistent (and try to avoid being evil), there's hope for the longer term.

 

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood, :phones:

Buffy

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Prosecute him for the riots and deaths he incited

Because the immunity guaranteed by the 1st Amendment is interpreted to apply to fiction in any media, I can’t see anyway that a person in the US could be prosecuted for making or promoting Innocence of Muslims, which appears to be a poorly made, politically-motivated historical fiction movie about Muhammad. The only remedy available to people offended by such a movie is to not watch it, or promotional videos about it.

 

Deport him

Because Nakoula Basseley Nakoula is a US citizen, he can’t be deported.

 

Nothing

As it’s reported that Nakoula is on probation for a previous conviction, and the terms of his probation “barred him from either owning or using devices with access to the Web without prior approval from his probation officer”, it’s up to his PO if he is returned to prison for violating his probation.

 

I believe that it would be a mistake for his PO, and the higher-up managers and court officers who are certain to become involved in such a high level case, to do nothing in response to his likely involvement in the making and promoting of Innocence of Muslims.

 

I hope his PO and the higher-level managers who are certain to become involved in such a high level case do so, because I believe that Nakoula’s safety can be better assured in prison, and because he is likely to engage in fraud if his access to the internet and other communication is not strictly supervised, which cannot practically be done outside of prison.

 

It’s important to understand that one’s rights to due process when on probation are much less than they are when prosecuted for a crime. Essentially, if your PO decides you should be returned to prison, unless he is contradicted by a superior of a court official, back you go.

 

Apologize for him

As Nakoula is not nor has ever been an official representing the US, no apology on behalf of the US is due from an US official. If Nakoula, someone he asks to represent him, wish to apologize, they are free under US law to do so, with the approval of the court overseeing his probation or imprisonment. Anyone else is free speak in support of, denouncement of, apology for, or refuse to apologize for Innocence of Muslims, though apologies by people uninvolved in its making seem silly, almost neurotically so, to me.

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I think that the US should definitely apologize for the guy because he's a hateful bigot and because he abused his right to free speech.

The US should not apologize that we have the right to free speech.

 

If he violated his conditions for parole, then he should be appropriately dealt with by the legal system.

 

Has the Arab spring not turned out as expected by whom? The ones that reacted to this stupid, ill advised film with violence. Or the ones that expressed outrage at the behavior of the mobs?

 

I don't believe that the Arab masses are yearning for the life that Americans enjoy. I believe that for the large part, they desire their own culture and freedom to live as they choose without undue influence from foreign governments.

Sure, we supplied material support for the rebels in Libya, a mistake in my opinion, but I doubt that the recipients of that aid will take kindly to continued meddling. As a matter of fact, they will most certainly resent it.

 

I understand that there is a strong likelihood, (despite what Susan Rice says), that the peaceful protests were not related to the seemingly well planned attack at all.

 

We are all being played. The people of the middle east as well as the citizens of the US. Sadly, we allow it to continue because we focus on the talking points like obedient little robots while the real issues are ignored. That's why one of the only two choices we have will become our next president. We'll vote, like we always do for the lesser of two evils while we ignore, just like our media masters want us to do, the voices that are willing to speak the truth.

We apparently can't handle the truth.

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I don't see this as a problem we should be addressing in anyway. Islam demands respect that it does not give anyone else. I see no reason what so ever to respect others beliefs beyond tolerating them as long as they don't interfere in the lives of others. Do we really owe any belief respect? Do we owe belief in Santa respect? Islam, if allowed, would destroy our entire culture in favor of their religion, if allowed so would Christianity but we limit the powers of religion in our society so not only is the power of religion limited but anyone can worship any religion or not as they please.

 

Islamic law does not allow this, are there moderate Muslims? Of course their are but they stand to lose their very lives if they stand up to the Islamic governments that enforce Islamic law.

 

We owe these people no apology their inflated belief that only they deserve respect and no one else deserves anything but being converted by force is barbaric. They live 600 years in the past, no ones beliefs should be protected from criticism, no ones beliefs should be given any more respect than any other belief.

 

It is most certainly correct that freedom of speech is of paramount importance to us and if we allow others to censor us by threat of force then we have already been subjugated... The danger is not just Islam either..

 

It maybe that we are called a free society but we are seeing a resurgence of so called Christian values across our entire country, laws have been passed in my state and others limiting the rights of people for no reason what so ever other than religion. At some point this has to stop or we risk losing our own freedom. We cannot allow religion to black mail us into limiting the freedoms of our society, not Islam, not Christianity, no belief should be allowed to limit those who do not hold it by threats of violence against those who do not hold that belief.

 

Believe what you will but you cannot be allowed to limit the freedoms of others because of your beliefs...

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I don't see this as a problem we should be addressing in anyway. Islam demands respect that it does not give anyone else. I see no reason what so ever to respect others beliefs beyond tolerating them as long as they don't interfere in the lives of others. Do we really owe any belief respect? Do we owe belief in Santa respect? Islam, if allowed, would destroy our entire culture in favor of their religion, if allowed so would Christianity but we limit the powers of religion in our society so not only is the power of religion limited but anyone can worship any religion or not as they please.

 

Islamic law does not allow this, are there moderate Muslims? Of course their are but they stand to lose their very lives if they stand up to the Islamic governments that enforce Islamic law.

 

We owe these people no apology their inflated belief that only they deserve respect and no one else deserves anything but being converted by force is barbaric. They live 600 years in the past, no ones beliefs should be protected from criticism, no ones beliefs should be given any more respect than any other belief.

 

It is most certainly correct that freedom of speech is of paramount importance to us and if we allow others to censor us by threat of force then we have already been subjugated... The danger is not just Islam either..

 

It maybe that we are called a free society but we are seeing a resurgence of so called Christian values across our entire country, laws have been passed in my state and others limiting the rights of people for no reason what so ever other than religion. At some point this has to stop or we risk losing our own freedom. We cannot allow religion to black mail us into limiting the freedoms of our society, not Islam, not Christianity, no belief should be allowed to limit those who do not hold it by threats of violence against those who do not hold that belief.

 

Believe what you will but you cannot be allowed to limit the freedoms of others because of your beliefs...

 

I agree with you for the most part. Except when it comes to the apology. I'm not suggesting that we have any obligation to apology, other than just plain old decency.

I don't have an obligation to apologize for the bigot false preacher from FL., but he's a fellow American and Floridian and whether or not I like it, people have a way of generalizing and lumping folks together and sure as hell, every middle aged white guy in FL is tarnished just a little.

 

It's not as much apologizing for the act of making the film but more just feeling sorry for the distress it's caused.

I'm having difficulty expressing myself, but it's like if I splashed someone standing on the sidewalk while driving by in a car. It's not my fault it's raining. It's not my fault there was a puddle in the lane. It's not my fault that the person happened to be standing there.

But I still wish it hadn't happened and I feel sorry that they were affected and I see no harm in expressing that.

 

So, just to make sure it's on the record.

 

To Muslims everywhere;

As a citizen of the United States, I'm sorry that some of my fellow citizens are so hateful, narrow minded and short sighted that they would abuse and disrespect one of the most important foundations that the US is built upon. Our freedom to express ourselves.

I'm sorry that men have died and that your beliefs have been insulted and that hatred has been bolstered by their maliciousness.

These broken people do not represent the vast majority of Americans. They certainly don't represent me.

 

Ordinary people should not be assumed to share the beliefs of violent criminals who share their faith.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/20129168313878423.html

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The claims made by a coptic christian masquerading as a US Israeli citizen who received 5 million $US in donations from 100 Jewish doctors to create a movie insulting Islam shoould be investigated for any resemblance to the truth.

 

Even in Australia, where we are not as religious and don't have a gun culture, violence and protests aren't just reserved for Muslims.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

Edited by LaurieAG
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I agree with you for the most part. Except when it comes to the apology. I'm not suggesting that we have any obligation to apology, other than just plain old decency.

I don't have an obligation to apologize for the bigot false preacher from FL., but he's a fellow American and Floridian and whether or not I like it, people have a way of generalizing and lumping folks together and sure as hell, every middle aged white guy in FL is tarnished just a little.

 

It's not as much apologizing for the act of making the film but more just feeling sorry for the distress it's caused.

I'm having difficulty expressing myself, but it's like if I splashed someone standing on the sidewalk while driving by in a car. It's not my fault it's raining. It's not my fault there was a puddle in the lane. It's not my fault that the person happened to be standing there.

But I still wish it hadn't happened and I feel sorry that they were affected and I see no harm in expressing that.

 

So, just to make sure it's on the record.

 

To Muslims everywhere;

As a citizen of the United States, I'm sorry that some of my fellow citizens are so hateful, narrow minded and short sighted that they would abuse and disrespect one of the most important foundations that the US is built upon. Our freedom to express ourselves.

I'm sorry that men have died and that your beliefs have been insulted and that hatred has been bolstered by their maliciousness.

These broken people do not represent the vast majority of Americans. They certainly don't represent me.

 

 

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/20129168313878423.html

 

 

Apologize? As a people, as a culture because some ******* insulted someone else's version of a fairy tale? Apologize because of dueling fairy tales? No thank you... no way no how...

 

The claims made by a coptic christian masquerading as a US Israeli citizen who received 5 million $US in donations from 100 Jewish doctors to create a movie insulting Islam shoould be investigated for any resemblance to the truth.

 

Even in Australia, where we are not as religious and don't have a gun culture, violence and protests aren't just reserved for Muslims.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

 

 

Gun culture? How insulting, I demand you apologise for insulting my belief that everyone should be armed to the teeth...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCFmSFvIZw

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I would frame an apology in this way:

 

I wish to apologise in relation to the anti-Islamic video that has caused concern around the world. I am truly sorry that allegedly sensible, educated people should pay an iota of attention to a bigoted fool. I am truly sorry that a religion which rightly prides itself on balance and self restraint should be used by its supposed adherents to justify getting upset over the amateurish output of a insignificant charlatan. And finally I am truly sorry that anyone would believe that the world is a better place through answering stupidity with violence.

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I agree with you for the most part. Except when it comes to the apology. I'm not suggesting that we have any obligation to apology, other than just plain old decency.

I don't have an obligation to apologize for the bigot false preacher from FL., but he's a fellow American and Floridian and whether or not I like it, people have a way of generalizing and lumping folks together and sure as hell, every middle aged white guy in FL is tarnished just a little.

 

It's not as much apologizing for the act of making the film but more just feeling sorry for the distress it's caused.

I'm having difficulty expressing myself, but it's like if I splashed someone standing on the sidewalk while driving by in a car. It's not my fault it's raining. It's not my fault there was a puddle in the lane. It's not my fault that the person happened to be standing there.

But I still wish it hadn't happened and I feel sorry that they were affected and I see no harm in expressing that.

 

So, just to make sure it's on the record.

 

To Muslims everywhere;

As a citizen of the United States, I'm sorry that some of my fellow citizens are so hateful, narrow minded and short sighted that they would abuse and disrespect one of the most important foundations that the US is built upon. Our freedom to express ourselves.

I'm sorry that men have died and that your beliefs have been insulted and that hatred has been bolstered by their maliciousness.

These broken people do not represent the vast majority of Americans. They certainly don't represent me.

 

Interesting analogy Knothead. So when you pulled over to apologize to the people on the sidewalk that you got wet and they rushed your car, stabbed, and shot your passengers before you could say anything, would you still feel obliged to apoligize?

 

Although I like your apology better Ecolite these ignorant fanatics wouldn't understand what you where trying to say to them.

 

 

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/20129168313878423.html

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I suppose the guy on the sidewalk to whom I excuse myself for accidentally bumping into could stick me in the ribs with an icepick too. Until that and scenarios like yours become more the rule rather than the exception, my first instinct will still be to say "pardon me".

 

 

If you disagree with the spirit of what I was trying to convey, why not just say so instead of attempting to make it sound absurd?

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freedom of speech

 

thing is i have a friend who is a christian, and he believes that politics and religion shouldn't mix,

 

if they talk politicks, they should pay taxes also

 

i know all about people speaking ill of what you believe, but if you get violent over it, and deaths occur,

 

then you are not in the right anyway

 

i wish someone could have protected the people who lost their lives

 

the guy making the video, should have freedom of speech, if the people who rioted didn't like the video,

don't watch it,

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I suppose the guy on the sidewalk to whom I excuse myself for accidentally bumping into could stick me in the ribs with an icepick too. Until that and scenarios like yours become more the rule rather than the exception, my first instinct will still be to say "pardon me".

 

 

If you disagree with the spirit of what I was trying to convey, why not just say so instead of attempting to make it sound absurd?

 

OK, if that's what you prefer, I disagree they would not get an apology from me for the video after killing 4 who nothing to do with it.

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thing is i have a friend who is a christian, and he believes that politics and religion shouldn't mix,

 

if they talk politicks, they should pay taxes also

 

With all due respect to your friend, he's wrong. A Christian, a Muslim, neo nazi or secular humanist has exactly the same freedom of speech as anyone else. And in the same quantity. It would be like saying that the Moose or Elk club doesn't have the right to talk politics.

 

i know all about people speaking ill of what you believe, but if you get violent over it, and deaths occur,

 

then you are not in the right anyway

 

I doubt that you will find many who disagree with that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen a lot anyway.

Say for instance you are walking down the street with your mother or girlfriend or little sister and I walk up and start spouting vile lies about her virtue and cleanliness. I certainly have a right to do that. And you certainly don't have a right to punch me in the nose for it.

But I bet you would be very tempted.

 

The video is being used as a tool to incite emotions to serve the purposes of greedy, power hungry fanatical zealots. The video is being used by the US government as a tool to draw attention and focus away from our flawed foreign policy.

I'm sorry about that too.

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OK, if that's what you prefer, I disagree they would not get an apology from me for the video after killing 4 who nothing to do with it.

 

There's that word again. "They".

Angry people, whether they are violent mobs in the middle east or posters on hypography use it too casually. Many people over the years have used that word to incite anger and deny freedom to groups of individuals.

 

I don't like that word. It implies that there is no difference between the murderers and the peaceful protesters. Is that your contention?

 

 

In case you missed it.

 

 

Ordinary people should not be assumed to share the beliefs of violent criminals who share their faith.

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/09/20129168313878423.html

Edited by Knothead
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With all due respect to your friend, he's wrong. A Christian, a Muslim, neo nazi or secular humanist has exactly the same freedom of speech as anyone else. And in the same quantity. It would be like saying that the Moose or Elk club doesn't have the right to talk politics.

 

Not really, the moose and the elks have to pay taxes or at least keep records and the government can tax them. Churches are tax exempt do not have to keep records and are prohibited from preaching politics...

 

 

I doubt that you will find many who disagree with that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen a lot anyway.

Say for instance you are walking down the street with your mother or girlfriend or little sister and I walk up and start spouting vile lies about her virtue and cleanliness. I certainly have a right to do that. And you certainly don't have a right to punch me in the nose for it.

But I bet you would be very tempted.

 

But that type of verbal assault is illegal and you can call the police, at the very least you can sue for slander... where I live I could almost certainly get by with punching you out... laws do vary... so does enforcement...

 

The video is being used as a tool to incite emotions to serve the purposes of greedy, power hungry fanatical zealots. The video is being used by the US government as a tool to draw attention and focus away from our flawed foreign policy.

I'm sorry about that too.

 

Can we assume those are your opinions and you cannot provide evidence to back them up?

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Not really, the moose and the elks have to pay taxes or at least keep records and the government can tax them. Churches are tax exempt do not have to keep records and are prohibited from preaching politics...

 

You may be right. I thought that non profit organizations were exempt from some taxes. I can't really follow it all.

 

A 501© organization, also known colloquially as either a 501© or a "nonprofit", is an American tax-exempt nonprofit organization. Section 501© of the United States Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. § 501©) provides that 28 types of nonprofit organizations are exempt from some federal income taxes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501%28c%29_organization

 

But my point was simply that free speech applies equally to every individual.

 

 

But that type of verbal assault is illegal and you can call the police, at the very least you can sue for slander... where I live I could almost certainly get by with punching you out... laws do vary... so does enforcement...

 

But I was just kidding. It was fiction. It was just a story. You just took it too seriously. It's just art. You entirely misunderstood my intention.

 

Can we assume those are your opinions and you cannot provide evidence to back them up?

 

No.

 

the awful truth is that this year's most significant movie may well turn out to be a non-movie, a hoax movie, a bigoted piece of poison calculated to inflame the Muslim world.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2012/sep/17/innocence-of-muslims-demonstration-film?newsfeed=true

Rice contradicts Libyan account, says consulate attack was not premeditated

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/249717-rice-at-odds-with-libya-says-benghazi-attack-was-not-premeditated

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