What is the role of public education?

[questor]

Education is not ''given'' to someone. each person educates himself by studying, doing his homework, reading and communicating with society. people who think you ''give'' an

education put all the burden upon an overcrowded, underfunded, inefficient system run by incompetents. there are two types of parents, those who know they must participate and bear ultimate responsiblity for their child's education and those who view the system as a baby sitting apparatus for their non-achieving kids. the whole system is run by the wrong people...liberal educators and politicians with no understanding of business and motivational principles. all you have to do is look at the way successful schools are managed and compare them to the failing schools. the answers are apparent. this is not rocket science.

[questor]

why not have the forum ( among which must be some educators) post their opinions as to why our educational system is ranked so low?

[Erasmus00]

why not have the forum ( among which must be some educators) post their opinions as to why our educational system is ranked so low?

 

Many other countries seperate kids into different career paths at a much younger age. Hence, people who would potentially score lower on tests don't ever get the chance to take them in other countries.

 

Another problem is that education in America isn't seen as a high prestige job. Those who can do, those who can't teach and all that.

-Will

[Fishteacher73]

. all you have to do is look at the way successful schools are managed and compare them to the failing schools. the answers are apparent. this is not rocket science.

 

And yet somehow you get it wrong.

 

The numbert one determining factor in both individual and school performance is parental involvement. Forcing unwilling/uncaring parents into situations does not produce results. The educational system is looked upon by many as free daycare and ALL education is their duty, from social skills to reading. Education is pointless in any field if it is not supported outside the class. The modern public school is just a facade for a low end prison. Those with the means and abilities (ie usually money) either participate in private schools or public schools with a high percentage of parental involvement (usually the suburbs, and again money). When I refer to money, that is not school funding, but the financial position of the students' families. We are building and ever growing gap between the haves and have nots and our educational system is one of the biggest contibuting factors.

[questor]

Fishteacher, i can't see where we disagree on the problem except for the number 1

problem. as a country, we have not reached a consensus of how to run our educational system. the affluent kids do well in spite of deficient teachers and antiquated schools. the poorer kids and their parents and their school boards and administrators are the drag upon the system. one of the big problems is the reluctance to ''tell it like it is'' ,because of the spectre of being called racist. why do poorer kids fail? their culture demands and ensures it.

[questor]

Bill Cosby has stated clearly why kids fail and been whipped for so saying.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

It goes without saying that learning and educating oneself is the single most important thing anyone can do. But that truth is only learned by choice. It has to be a conclusion that each person draws themself because it is a fundamental value and must be consciously chosen.

 

Therefore it should not be mandatory and under no circumstances should it be considered a 'right'. By definition, an education is not a debt owed to each individual by 'society' so it should NOT be considered a 'right'. As it is today, it should be considered a 'wrong'.

 

In fact, we violate the rights of all the people who pay to provide it and because it is mandatory we also violate the right of the children to choose to learn. So in the name of the common good we've violated the rights of every individual in the country - and for what?

[Fishteacher73]

It goes without saying that learning and educating oneself is the single most important thing anyone can do. But that truth is only learned by choice. It has to be a conclusion that each person draws themself because it is a fundamental value and must be consciously chosen.

 

Therefore it should not be mandatory and under no circumstances should it be considered a 'right'. By definition, an education is not a debt owed to each individual by 'society' so it should NOT be considered a 'right'. As it is today, it should be considered a 'wrong'.

 

In fact, we violate the rights of all the people who pay to provide it and because it is mandatory we also violate the right of the children to choose to learn. So in the name of the common good we've violated the rights of every individual in the country - and for what?

 

Education is not a right, but a privilage. The only problem comes when you or anyone else starts to decide whom is privilaged enough to recieve it.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

fishteacher: Education is not a right, but a privilage. The only problem comes when you or anyone else starts to decide whom is privilaged enough to recieve it.

At least you don't equate a Right with a privilage. I contend that what you declare is a privilege to receive is just plain worthless. You probably think that well, to fix it, just change the format or the curriculum or both. Throw more money at it. My point, which you've ignored, is that it's rotten from within because it's based upon a bundle of fallacies.

The weakness in your position is the weakness of the value you say it is a privilage to receive. But that's not surprising, at least to me. You can pretend that public education 'gives' something to our children but it's nothing more than a pretense. It's the Big Lie but in a different format. But go on pretending. And teach our children to pretend too. That way, if you all pretend together, you're safe, right?

[IrishEyes]

At least you don't equate a Right with a privilage. I contend that what you declare is a privilege to receive is just plain worthless. You probably think that well, to fix it, just change the format or the curriculum or both. Throw more money at it. My point, which you've ignored, is that it's rotten from within because it's based upon a bundle of fallacies.

The weakness in your position is the weakness of the value you say it is a privilage to receive. But that's not surprising, at least to me. You can pretend that public education 'gives' something to our children but it's nothing more than a pretense. It's the Big Lie but in a different format. But go on pretending. And teach our children to pretend too. That way, if you all pretend together, you're safe, right?

I understand that you disagree with Fish on this one. A few of us do. But what I don't understand is why you've all but attacked him here.

Fish knows and understands the system that you have problems with. As a teacher in a public school in a major city, he deals with it every day. I think his insights are very valuable, and his ideas are sound.

Personally, I don't like the public education system here in this country. I've said it many times, and I have my own reasons, some of which you all know. However, instead of just bashing the system, I chose to remove my children from it. I'll work on it later, when it can no longer affect my children's future. And that's exactly what i plan on doing. But for now, the kids will stay home, and 'learn' things in the ways that they learn best, individually.

As far as the role of public education in this country, I find myself going back to what UncleAl said in one of the first posts in this thread. It's not to teach kids to learn. It's to teach them what the government feels is important for them to know, spit it out on a test, and forget it. Not a really great system, as far as I'm concerned, but it's what we have. Throwing money at it won't make it a whole lot better.

Kids need to learn how to learn, to think for themselves, to solve problems, and to get along with others. These things aren't usually best taught in a classroom of 20 other kids the same age, for 8 hours a day. Learning has to become a passion for people. If it isn't, then we are doomed. If our children don't learn more than we have, then 'we' are in very big trouble!

What are each of you doing to improve the system in your areas? What are you doing to make it better for YOUR kids?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Irisheyes: Fish knows and understands the system that you have problems with. As a teacher in a public school in a major city, he deals with it every day. I think his insights are very valuable, and his ideas are sound.

I'm attacking the system, not the teachers or the students in it. But I also disagree with his ideas as they relate to 'privilege'. This is not an esoteric subject. People's rights are violated on a daily basis and more harm has been caused by our attempts to 'elevate' the common man in the name of 'public education' than we could ever calculate. I am a common man and I'll elevate myself, thank you. Only a total fool would believe that it is right to steal from one man and give to another. But one of the things that our children are taught to do is to pretend. The church teaches that too. And by pretending, we can turn a blind-eye to the theft that takes place to provide this noble privilage. In my mind there is a direct connection between that act and the fact that the schools suck. They're based upon force and fraud and I have a right to be angry and pretending otherwise will solve nothing.

Irisheyes: What are each of you doing to improve the system in your areas? What are you doing to make it better for YOUR kids?

I pulled my kids out of school too. We've been taught that living with contradictions is just friggin fine. Well, it's not.

[zadojla]

People's rights are violated on a daily basis and more harm has been caused by our attempts to 'elevate' the common man in the name of 'public education' than we could ever calculate.

Examples?

[zadojla]

Only a total fool would believe that it is right to steal from one man and give to another.

Steal from whom, how, and give to whom?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

zadojla:Examples?

Violation of rights on a daily basis happens in two separate areas: The first is taking money from people who don't want to pay for public education. That is theft. We pretend it isn't. We say, "but you voted on it and lost". This is a pretense. The fact that we obfuscate the issue by saying, "well how will we pay for it then?" doesn't make it any less a pretense.

The second violation occurs to the child. Education is mandatory. That means it's forced.

The 'more harm than we could ever calculate' part refers to the damage done to the two sets of victims in this scenario: those who are stolen from and those who are forced against their will to do something they should not have to do. An elderly widow who has to sell the home that her husband built and in which her children were raised because the new tax levy has exceeded her fixed income. The child who would rather be at home helping the parents work on the farm or in the shop or making music. Imagine if Mozart had been forced into kindergarten.

 

zadojla: Steal from whom, how, and give to whom?

Does your state have property taxes? Does a portion of that money go to pay for public schools? If you don't have children or teach them yourself or are putting them through a private school....why should you pay for public schools?

 

The idea that taxation is not theft is a fallacy. Those who don't understand that are pretending.

 

But I must apologize for getting off subject. The question is, "what is the role of public education". To my way of thinking, the role of public education is to indoctrinate our children with a set of ideas that someone has decided they need. That it is a babysitting service is a fringe benefit. It also provides jobs for all public school employees and provides a revenue stream for government - more 'fringe' benefits. We are told that its role is to prepare children for becoming productive members of society.

 

In China, if you are 'one in a million', there are at least 1000 others just like you. Our children have got to compete with that horde of geniuses and the truth is that they can't. Especially if all we've given them is public education. The real issue here is learning and if we want to prepare them for a future, we need to help them learn how to learn. And hand in glove with that is teaching them that things can make sense and should make sense. And that means we have to face up to the fallacies on which large parts of our 'society' is built. It is said that we sow the seeds of our own destruction. I think that public education is one of those seeds.

[niviene]

I think that we all pay for public education because it benefits all of us... plain and simple. The system is not without it's (many, many) flaws, but, the same way I feel about our government, it's better than nothing. Many other countries have better school systems than ours (and many foreigners love to remind us of that). But, we live in a society that values entertainers over teachers, and that is one reason that our school systems are so lacking, in my opinion, not to mention that the lack of education within the community breeds more children in the system who also don't have any interest in school - and I think that as the education level of the parents (and community) increases, so will the public schooling in that area. I personally feel that educating children (and every living person) is extremely important to all of the rest of us, and that it is our own responsibility to learn and be a part of the community that supported us to begin with. But, most children don't know, see, or understand that, and to them, school is just a form of punishment that they can't wait to get away from. Still, without that diploma, they are going to have a really tough time getting a job, and are far more likely to end up costing us money anyway by winding up on welfare and other types of aid.

 

The real kick in the teeth is that any illegal immigrant can come here and go to our public schools as well - and it even costs more for them to do so - and school officials are told that it's illegal for them to ask about whether or not they are here legally, or to treat them any differently. So, just like with all the other things, it's really abuse and apathy in the systems that make them so less effective.

 

I do not think any school needs more money, and I never vote yes on any levy. I have seen too many financial reports that involve money being spent and wasted where it should not be, and until I see cleaner ones, I will not ever approve of more of our money to be wasted as it is.

 

But, it's important to keep in mind that education really is a community endeavor - all who live in the community depend on all others who live in the community to become educated, and that is the premise behind property taxes going towards public education. The level of education in a community is inversely proportional to the crime rate, too. We have other things we're forced to pay for that we don't like, either, that I'd love to opt out of - such as financing this war, and social security that has all but promised to be gone by the time I retire - but we all suffer together, right? :eek:

 

For the time being, I applaud the teachers who are currently in the system who have to feel so much pressure from all sides - they deserve more respect from us, in my opinion - they have pressure from every side imaginable - kids who don't want to be there, what can you do about that? Have a meeting with a parent? Probably the same parent who doesn't care in the first place and that created the attitude of the child. And, don't you dare be too nice to a child, or someone will claim you are a pedophile. I could not do it. I'm sure those teachers get the opposite, too - a handful of students who will learn everything you teach them and look up to them and remember them for the rest of their lives - and I hope those few make it worth it.

 

I feel that the roll of public education is supposed to be for the good of the community. It's hard to criticise the system though - it's like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? IT starts with the parents and the community - but they had to go to school... etc. The public school system is lacking, but it's not just that system that creates the problems. Where do we start?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Niviene:But, it's important to keep in mind that education really is a community endeavor - all who live in the community depend on all others who live in the community to become educated, and that is the premise behind property taxes going towards public education.

But it's a false premise. If the other people in my community choose not to become educated, that is their choice. Forcing people to learn something as opposed to them choosing to learn something have vastly different learning curves. One is difficult and one is a snap. So why do we believe the opposite to be true? We pretend. We lie to ourselves. And we've elevated the lying to a national pastime, almost a sport.

I have 5 children. I taught each one of them how to read long before they were required to go to school. It didn't take me a year or two, only between 2 and 3 weeks a piece. Each night before they had to go to sleep, I'd sit with them with a pad of paper and black felt tipped pen and write phonetic words on a little pad of paper. As soon as they lost focus I'd stop and kiss them goodnight. At first, it never lasted more than 5 minutes. But as the days went by, the sessions got longer. No kid wants to go to bed at night. Soon they'd want to do words before they went to bed. And shortly after that they were on their own and reading books.

My point here is to show the difference between wanting to learn and being forced to learn. Please show me where the public education system identifies ways to shorten the time children would need to spend in school. There is zero interest in shortening grades 1 - 12 to say, 1 year. Why should they? They get so much per kid each year whether or not they learn anything. How dumb are we, anyways?

One more anecdotal item. When I pulled my kids out of school I told them that all they had to do was read. No workbooks except for mathematics (which they really never took seriously) just read. I didn't care what they read. I also attempted to get them to write in a journal every day about what they had done. Every year we were required to administer the standardized achievement tests for their age. I followed the instructions to the letter, never interfered and stopped the test right at the time allowed. Every year they averaged somewhere around the 88th percentile in every category.

The point is that at some point they made the decision to learn on their own. You see, they knew it was their responsibility to learn, not society's responsibility to teach them and that makes all the difference in the world.

[IrishEyes]

I have 5 children. I taught each one of them how to read long before they were required to go to school. It didn't take me a year or two, only between 2 and 3 weeks a piece. Each night before they had to go to sleep, I'd sit with them with a pad of paper and black felt tipped pen and write phonetic words on a little pad of paper. As soon as they lost focus I'd stop and kiss them goodnight. At first, it never lasted more than 5 minutes. But as the days went by, the sessions got longer. No kid wants to go to bed at night. Soon they'd want to do words before they went to bed. And shortly after that they were on their own and reading books.

 

One more anecdotal item. When I pulled my kids out of school I told them that all they had to do was read. No workbooks except for mathematics (which they really never took seriously) just read. I didn't care what they read. I also attempted to get them to write in a journal every day about what they had done. Every year we were required to administer the standardized achievement tests for their age. I followed the instructions to the letter, never interfered and stopped the test right at the time allowed. Every year they averaged somewhere around the 88th percentile in every category.

The point is that at some point they made the decision to learn on their own. You see, they knew it was their responsibility to learn, not society's responsibility to teach them and that makes all the difference in the world.

FINALLY!

Someone is singing my song out there.

Believe it or not, that's pretty much exactly what I did as well. People look at me like I'm crazy, especially in my homeschool group, when they ask what curric we use and I say "NONE". Then I explain that we go to Borders at least twice a month, and the kids are allowed to pick out whatever books they want. My only requirement is that they actually read the books. I will not buy them new books until they have read the ones from the last trip. Guess how many times one of them hasn't gotten new books.

If you guessed that every one of the six gets new books every single time we go, you guessed correctly.They want something new, they know what it takes to get it, they are motivated. Oh, and here's the other thing - every time we go, I get to pick out one book for each of them. And they must also at least attempt to red that one, or no new ones. Before our first year at home was over, my son loved to read. This was major, since he HATED it the year before. But when he wasn't forced to do it, he discovered that he actually enjoyed it. Plus, he loved learning new things, especially if he thought I might not know them. (How fast do hummingbird's wings go while in flight, anyway? :eek: )

 

And nivienne, great post! Thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts and ideas. It was very enlightening~!