What is the role of public education?

[lindagarrette]

The number one factor I feel is class size. At any teaching level you are really only hitting at about 10%. For about 45% you are too slow and for 45% you are too advanced. Factor in that people learn in various methods, so your actual hit % could be drastically less. With more one-on-one time you can address each students's specific needs and allow them to be successful in learning.

Of course, everyone would like small classes with the best (expensive) teachers but that's not realistic beyond elementary education, at least fo mostr public school budgets..

[Fluffy]

Of course, everyone would like small classes with the best (expensive) teachers but that's not realistic beyond elementary education, at least fo mostr public school budgets..

I agree. I was lucky enough to go to a small school but with a small school also comes a small budget so we didn't have a lot of money for extracurricular activites so I may have gotten more individual attention in the classroom but I sometimes feel like I missed out on some of the extra things that you can find at a larger school like an actual science lab or a drama club.

[Qfwfq]

That's cuz in English-speaking countries (as opposed to American-speaking), "biscuits" are what we call crackers...

 

Crikey!

Buffy

Cor' blimey! I always thought ya called them "cookies" in North America! :)

[zadojla]

Cor' blimey! I always thought ya called them "cookies" in North America! :)

So could it be that [American] biscuits are not offered at KFC's in Australia because there is no word in [Australian] English that unambiguously describes them?

How about McDonald's bacon, egg, and vegemite breakfast biscuits?

[pgrmdave]

From a student's perspective:

 

The most important thing is the teacher. Nothing else. It doesn't matter what the material is, so long as you have the right teacher for it. There are some teacher who simply know how to teach the material in engaging ways, know how to teach it in various ways, and know how to make students not feel like they are being talked down to. I've been in a large variety of different classes, class sizes from 11 to 31, teachers ranging from the best to the worst, from classes with all levels of learning in them to classes with only honors students to classes with only regular students. However, the only consistancy that I've seen in how much is learned, both factual knowledge and critical thinking, has been in the quality of the teacher. Small class sizes allow teachers to teach at a level closer to their full ability, they are able to tailor their lessons and their interactions more specifically and thus can teach more in less time. For pure education, it is best to be with people who are all at your intelligence level, however, it is often a good thing to be in classes with a wide variety of levels, simply because it is helpful socially. A good teacher will still be able to reach many students, and make it engaging, regardless of the class, provided the students aren't hostile towards learning, there are some students who will not be reached, no matter what you do.

 

So what constitutes a good teacher? I've found that the best teachers are able to do three things:

1) Teach the material in a variety of ways. Not everybody learns the same way, and the best teachers are able to teach it in ways that will allow everybody to understand it.

 

2) Engage the students in a personal manner. The teachers I learned best from were those with whom I had more of a friendship. The teachers who talk with the students are able to teach better, and the students are more willing to learn, and try.

 

3) Love the material. When a teacher seems to truly enjoy the material, and loves just talking about it, kids will pay attention, and become interested.

[Fishteacher73]

I just got another reminder of why the US educational system blows. I got my butt chewed by the principal today for failing too many students. This could be understandable if it were due to poor test grades across the board (ie, MY problem) but I teach a auxilary math class for low performing students and I only grade quizes, all other grades are completion grades (ie, student A did the whole assignment, 100; Student B did 3/4 of it 75, etc. I do not grade for correctness in my grade book. If the students puts forth effort in here they get a decent grade.) The problem is I had many students fail to turn in any work on many assignments. I had two students that somehow even did not turn in two quizes when they took them in class. One student had a term grade of a 0. So, in effect we have seen that they are ot learning much by the evivdence of their grades, but I am supposed to pass them. I guess the one thing they will learn is that they can continue to be lazy and dumb and will coast on through life..... :) :) :) :) :D ;) :) :) :) :)

[gubba]

G'day zadojla,

 

afraid Buffy's right on. It seems old australian and current americanese, the same vocabulary they do not adhere. Crackers, cookies, biscuits? Ain't they all the same sort of thing, dry or sweet? I shall turn to the household's cultural and linguistic interpreters, the kids,for translation yet again. About vegemite, how adventurous are you? It's rather more than simply an aquired taste, it's an experience that, as yet, has distinctly failed to tempt me. cheers gub.

{aside to oneself} what on earth are the golden arches doing baking biscuits in the states? I thought they were a hamburger mob...... strange.....oh dear oh dear lol.

[zadojla]

Crackers, cookies, biscuits? Ain't they all the same sort of thing, dry or sweet?

Only sort of. Here's an [American] biscuit recipe. It's from scratch, and the units aren't metric, of course. http://www.hugs.org/Biscuits.shtml Most people use a mix called Bisquick, where you just add water.

I spent a goodly percentage of every conversation with the Australian kids last week translating traditional units into metric.

[zadojla]

I guess the one thing they will learn is that they can continue to be lazy and dumb and will coast on through life.

Someone has to staff the fast food joints.

[JerryB]

From a student's perspective:

This thread seems to have petered out but, pgrmdave, I think

yours was the best post in this thread, one of the best posts I've

read on this forum so I was dismayed to notice that nobody

commented on it. Obviously I agree with what you've said and

that comes from a background of nearly twenty years as a student

in educational institutions and about 30 years as a teacher. Although,

in fact, I think I formed my opinions before I finished high school and

they haven't changed much since then, just filled out a little.

 

It also seems strange to me that more people don't see things

from our perspective and I suspect that may account for the

generally poor quality of education. On the other hand, if only

good teachers were hired they might not find more than a dozen.

And whose to say which teahers are good? Why, the students, of

course. And who listens to what students say? Why, nobody at all.

Anyway thanks for your comments. I've added a boost to your

reputation for it.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

I too like PrgmrDave's monologue but I'm in complete agreement with Uncle Al considering the original question. He's right, guys.

 

Public education is just a subset of the wider subject, "education" and it operates under a large umbrella of fallacy.

 

Aside from being a contradiction in terms, it doesn't deliver what was implied will be delivered. Students are not specifically taught the skills for learning (we're born with those and they have to be beaten out of us), they are taught 'facts' which half the time turn out to be false. We tell the kids not to be skeptical.

 

The proof that we are ripping the wings off our little birds is in the fact that the light of learning burns brightly in the very young and by the time we shove them through the public education mill, that light is dead. Wish all you want, but that's true.

 

It's NOT the teachers. It's NOT the students. It's the system.

[JerryB]

I too like PrgmrDave's monologue but I'm in complete agreement with Uncle Al considering the original question. He's right, guys.

 

Public education is just a subset of the wider subject, "education" and it operates under a large umbrella of fallacy.

Yes, I should have mentioned that also. UncleAl's comments are

always good reading.

The proof that we are ripping the wings off our little birds is in the fact that the light of learning burns brightly in the very young and by the time we shove them through the public education mill, that light is dead. Wish all you want, but that's true.

 

It's NOT the teachers. It's NOT the students. It's the system.

And certainly your observation also fits well into this critique.

[questor]

Uncle Al, you must be a crotchety ole' f--t just like me. hooray for you. take no prisoners! my take on this is that education is a business and should be run like one, instead of being run by bureaucrats with no idea of bottom line requirements and touchy-feely, liberals who cannot control kids. here are a few ideas:

1. get a strong principal

2. have a pre semester convocation which all parents must attend

3. present the fact that the American school system is a great opportunity for the kids

4. bad behavior will not be tolerated, and disruptive kids will be escorted to the principals office to await a pick-up by the parent

5. after the third offense, the child will be expelled and the parent will have the choice to send him to a school for disorderly children

6. grades will be real and no sliding scale for social promotion

7. parents are partners and must attend at least two PTA mettings at which they can discuss how to better their kids performance, and get more info on their own responsibilities

8. teachers will get a large raise and performance bonuses

9. teachers must speak proper english...no ghetto or ebonics

there will be more.......she has dinner ready.

[zadojla]

1. get a strong principal

2. have a pre semester convocation which all parents must attend

3. present the fact that the American school system is a great opportunity for the kids

4. bad behavior will not be tolerated, and disruptive kids will be escorted to the principals office to await a pick-up by the parent

5. after the third offense, the child will be expelled and the parent will have the choice to send him to a school for disorderly children

6. grades will be real and no sliding scale for social promotion

7. parents are partners and must attend at least two PTA mettings at which they can discuss how to better their kids performance, and get more info on their own responsibilities

8. teachers will get a large raise and performance bonuses

9. teachers must speak proper english...no ghetto or ebonics

there will be more.......she has dinner ready.

1. Yes

2. Not always possible. I work nights, for instance.

3. Agreed

4. Agreed

5. What if there is no school for disorderly children? This is a rural area.

6. Agreed

7. See number 2

8. Agreed

9. Agreed (although there is almost no "diversity " here, so it is moot.)

[ldsoftwaresteve]

This is an example of a path that we all blindly follow even though it leads nowhere, returns less than nothing and children that are placed on it return, if we are lucky, with drool coming out of BOTH sides of their mouths.

 

Perhaps another thread should be started that discusses whether or not 'Public Education' is even a rational solution to 'teaching our children'.

 

"What is the role of public education" presupposes that it is a valid goal for a society. There is NOTHING public about learning. It's the most private thing we do and simply doesn't take place anywhere but in the privacy of our own mind. By definition, it's not Public. Why do we pretend that it is?

[zadojla]

"What is the role of public education" presupposes that it is a valid goal for a society.

If it is not, why not? What would you propose to take its place?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

zadojla: If it is not, why not? What would you propose to take its place?

Frankly, anything could take its place because it isn't returning anything now.

I wouldn't replace it with anything. I'd just scrap it.

'Society' (in a governmental sense) has a single teaching responsibility: it must make it clear that it is the responsibility of every indivudual to learn and it is NOT society's responsibility to teach them anything more than that.

Public education is the most elegant proof that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.