Beef_Bourito Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 is it possible to buy a specific mix of two different gases under pressure in one bottle? I would like a mix of one part methane 4 parts nitrous oxide(N2O) and another container of one part propane 10 parts N2O compressed to a certain pressure. Does anyone know where I could buy this and how expensive it would be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 is it possible to buy a specific mix of two different gases under pressure in one bottle? I would like a mix of one part methane 4 parts nitrous oxide(N2O) and another container of one part propane 10 parts N2O compressed to a certain pressure. Does anyone know where I could buy this and how expensive it would be? I suggest that you not mix these gases under pressure, the subsequent explosion might injure someone. You see, methane a hydrocarbon mixed under sufficient pressure with the oxidizing agent nitrous oxide will ignite and produce a violent explosion. My question to you would be; what purpose would one achieve by mixing these gases underpressure in a single container? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 I would like a mix of one part methane 4 parts nitrous oxide(N2O) and another container of one part propane 10 parts N2O compressed to a certain pressure. I agree with Infamous. This mixture is commonly used as rocket fuel for hobbyists. If anyone actually mixed these two gasses together under pressure, I would HOPE they would lose their license to sell chemicals. A standard technique/use for this mixture is: Prepare a mixture of 10-mL CH4 and 40-mL N2O in a single syringe. Displace water in a water-filled cut-off disposable pipet. Slip the pipet over a piezoelectric sparker, replace some water into the stem and ignite the gas mixture with a spark. The rocket will fly over 5 m. An especially bright light accompanies the detonation. The reaction is: 4 N2O(g) + CH4(g)----> 4 N2(g) + 2 H2O(g) + 2 CO2(g) DH = -1131 kJ Keep in mind this reaction is for 50ml of uncompressed gas. 50 liters might be significantly more difficult to manage. The notion of flying shrapnel ought to cross your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 I agree with Infamous. This mixture is commonly used as rocket fuel for hobbyists. If anyone actually mixed these two gasses together under pressure, I would HOPE they would lose their license to sell chemicals. A standard technique/use for this mixture is: Keep in mind this reaction is for 50ml of uncompressed gas. 50 liters might be significantly more difficult to manage. The notion of flying shrapnel ought to cross your mind. Say, Good work Biochemist; You really are a Biochemist aren't you. When I was in college, chemistry was one of my favorite subjects. I was always amazed to see reactions resulting in predicted outcomes. Chemistry has been, and still is one of the most usefull and benefical technologies humankind has developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Say, Good work Biochemist; You really are a Biochemist aren't you. When I was in college, chemistry was one of my favorite subjects. I was always amazed to see reactions resulting in predicted outcomes. Chemistry has been, and still is one of the most usefull and benefical technologies humankind has developed. I appreciate the complement IF, but this is actually general chem, not bio. In college, my favorite explosives involved iodine crystals. For the health of the readers, I will keep my proprietary production techniques to myself. But suffice it to say that I found a pretty high-yield process, and I have the Emergency Room records to prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 I appreciate the complement IF, but this is actually general chem, not bio. In college, my favorite explosives involved iodine crystals. For the health of the readers, I will keep my proprietary production techniques to myself. But suffice it to say that I found a pretty high-yield process, and I have the Emergency Room records to prove it. I thought reactions involving any of the hydrocarbons would be classed as Bio. Anyway my first love is Physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 I thought reactions involving any of the hydrocarbons would be classed as Bio. Anyway my first love is Physics.Ah. Well usually discussion of carbon-containing stuff is organic chemistry. To be biochem, it has to be stuff in a biological system (most of which is carbon-containing as well) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 is it possible to buy a specific mix of two different gases under pressure in one bottle? I would like a mix of one part methane 4 parts nitrous oxide(N2O) and another container of one part propane 10 parts N2O compressed to a certain pressure. Does anyone know where I could buy this and how expensive it would be? Transportation of such a mixture would be illegal in the U.S. because of the hazmat regulations. Where are you? If you're in the U.S. how do you think someone could get this to you even if such an unsafe mixture was available? BTW, what is it you want to use this mixture for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Ah. Well usually discussion of carbon-containing stuff is organic chemistry. To be biochem, it has to be stuff in a biological system (most of which is carbon-containing as well) I see; carbon based chemistry would just be organic chemistry, right? Then if I understand, Biochemistry would involve living tissue. Is this a proper defination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 I see; carbon based chemistry would just be organic chemistry, right? Then if I understand, Biochemistry would involve living tissue. Is this a proper defination?Yes, although it doesn't have to be actual tissue. You can set up biological enzyme systems in test tubes, and that still counts as Biochem. I am sure I could think of something that would gray the boundary between organic and biochemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Transportation of such a mixture would be illegal in the U.S. because of the hazmat regulations....BTW, what is it you want to use this mixture for?Good point on the transport, C1. And I suspect that the Feds would be interested in the answer to the second question as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 is it possible to buy a specific mix of two different gases under pressure in one bottle? Beef, please explain what you want this stuff for - this is not a forum for bomb making. :o I am sure you have nothing illegal in mind, but if I am unsure as to what this is for I will have to delete this thread to comply with our guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1ay Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 Good point on the transport, C1. And I suspect that the Feds would be interested in the answer to the second question as well. One of the reasons for asking the second question is that I am a rocket hobbyist myself. We do not use premixed mixtures though in rockets because of the dangers involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleAl Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 is it possible to buy a specific mix of two different gases under pressure in one bottle? I would like a mix of one part methane 4 parts nitrous oxide(N2O) and another container of one part propane 10 parts N2O compressed to a certain pressure. Does anyone know where I could buy this and how expensive it would be? NOBODY will mix fuel and oxidizer in a pressurized gas bottle. It is a bomb waiting for a spark of static electricity or a lucky cosmic ray. You mix them dynamically from separate bottles and have mesh screens in-line to prevent flashback. You can mix them by volume (flow meters) or by mass (nice, expensive, accurate mass-flow metering valves). Neutrals and fuels have right-handed screw connection threads, oxidizers have left-handed threads. If you get clever with violating CGA inlet specs you often get dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeleMad Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 4 N2O(g) + CH4(g)----> 4 N2(g) + 2 H2O(g) + 2 CO2(g) DH = -1131 kJ The equation violates the law of conservation of matter...in more than one way. 1) There is only 1 carbon in the reactants but 2 carbons in the products: some carbon magically appeared out of thin air. 2) There are only 4 oxygens in the reactants but 6 oxygens in the products: some oxygen also magically appeared out of thin air. The correct (balanced) equation is: 4 N2O(g) + CH4(g) ----> 4 N2(g) + 2 H2O(g) + CO2(g) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biochemist Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 The correct (balanced) equation is: 4 N2O(g) + CH4(g) ----> 4 N2(g) + 2 H2O(g) + CO2(g)Great catch, TM!! I pulled this off another site for the text, and didn't notice that the stoichiometry was unbalanced. Good job! Incidentally , I was thinking before that this is not a partiocularly good fuel, since the molar expansion is only from 4 (reactants) to 7 (products) moles of gas, for a net molar expansion of 75%. Nitroglycerin, in contrast, is a little over 1 to 7, for a net expansion of 725%. And that assumes that NTG starts out as a gas, which is doesn't. It is a liquid, which is far more compact. Now there is something to be careful with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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