What the..... GET THE US OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST!

[Theory5]

I was watching The Daily Show on Hulu.com and apperently the US is starting to try and weed out the heroin traffikers, because it is a 10 billion dollar industry, which supports the terrorists. Because it could help them catch the people who thought up 9/11. Now I am not an anti-american american, but I will say that I do not care who thought up 9/11, yes it was bad, but we can't catch them and thats that. Around 3000 people died in 9/11. And I say SO WHAT? How many homeless die a year in this "great" country from starvation and lack of shelter and medical care? How many people have been turned down from hospitals becuase they couldnt pay, so they were refused the care? How many people have died from drinking or smoking related causes? How many civvies have we killed extracting our revenge on the wrong people?

Who knows? Nobody cares.

Yet crash two planes into a few buildings and people get their feathers ruffled. And this wasnt an unexpect thing, really. There were reports that went completely ignored about a terror attack on the US, nothing was said to the public.

Now Obama is in the white house, and he claims he will bring the troops back, but now he says it will take a year or so until we are sure that iraq can support themselves!!

So now we are going to try to take down a drug empire while we are at it?:naughty: Havent we learned anything yet? What exactly makes America think that she is the best thing for these people, that she can help them?

Then everyone is going off about Obama's address to the muslim countries. Why is it annoying people? I think its good that he is reaching out, peacefullly.

[lemit]

[C]rash two planes into a few buildings and people get their feathers ruffled.

 

Strange, isn't it, how killing 3000 innocent people will cause that kind of irritation. I guess some people are just over-sensitive.

 

--lemit

 

p.s. To prevent a bunch of future apologies, I was being sarcastic.

[Boerseun]

As heartless as it might seem, I kinda see your point.

 

America had to respond after 9/11, to show to the world, prospective terrorists and her own population that she will bite back. Ironically, her response might just achieve what the terrorists attempted. Through crazy military spending like there's no tomorrow, America might blow the foundations out from under the economy. Things like Homeland Protection chisel away at the individual constitutional freedoms, the very Soul of America.

 

So, ironically, it might be that the US' response to 9/11 might serve as a incentive for further terrorist attacks on the same scale - whereby you blow up a few buildings in select spots, scurry back to your hole-in-the-wall and watch America self-destruct.

 

I think Obama engaging in a real conversation with the Muslim world on equal terms is paramount. Whether I agree with their particular brand of delusion is another matter, entirely.

[Ganoderma]

agreed. but the difference is with starving people in their own nation and poverty, disease etc, they can find all sorts of excuses and reasons and ways to fix them etc etc. with 9/11 there was probably a lot of shame...or something...to it. i mean they were attacked and lost control....doesn't matter how much control there was, it looks like they are weak and pathetic, so start some more stuff no matter the consequence :)

 

i agree with you. the whole 9/11 Afghanistan etc scenario has always pissed me off, both ways. but to be sadly truthful, i find it somewhat interesting how these terrorists (the Saudi Arabian ones) made such a big impact to the ants nest with pretty much almost zero cost, and the other terrorists (the Americans) have spent god know how much money, probably a bigger number than many countries would ever have), and all they have done is turn half the planet against them. i find it interesting because despite the impact it has had on people opinions and beliefs/life style.....what has really changed? and who is stopping what ;)

 

nothing in my eyes. we traded swords for bombs, horses for gas and we are still the same as we always have been.

 

we are just dumb as a species

[Theory5]

Strange, isn't it, how killing 3000 innocent people will cause that kind of irritation. I guess some people are just over-sensitive.

 

--lemit

 

p.s. To prevent a bunch of future apologies, I was being sarcastic.

 

Haha, I think we all know you are joking lemit. :-)

 

I apologize for my origional post, I was a little wound up over something else and that post was the result.

 

I care about all life, yes even those in the middle east, but when people discuss the Twin Towers Incedent as some sort of horrific huge body count once-in-a-lifetime horror that caps all others, I just get pissed off. Yes it was a horrible tragity and many people lost their lives. But if you look around, each year the flu kills around 9,000 people, homeless people dont have anyone to turn to when they need medical care, thousands die on the streets every year, drunk driving and reckless driving has killed so many more, and our collective punishment on Iraqi cities has killed thousands of civilians all to find terrorists who live in a hole in the middle of nowhere and have been portrayed by the US government and the media to look like huge threats to the "free" world, it just makes me upset. I think its changed, and our army are the terrorists. WE are the evil invaders who want nothing more than to kill.

In some places in Iraq they dont have enough food to eat, and even running water. If you think that Iraq and Afganistan is a threat to the US, I just cannot agree. Sure there are some terrorist cells that have hijacked planes and killed people, but you cannot associate them with any country. Its like associating the MOVE orgaization with America(or another organization, just pick one), sure they might live here but they do not speak for us, or anything like that. And the terrorist cells dont even live in Iraq! We went in on false pretenses, fought people who were not there, and worded it in such a way that most of America supports the governments decision!

[lemit]

The thing about 9/11 that drives a lot of us crazy is that unlike many domestic problems it was not just reprehensible, it was also preventable and prosecutable. If we knew about homelessness what we knew beforehand about al Qaeda, if we had the kind of purpose about healthcare that both the national and international communities had immediately after 9/11, we could shelter and heal ourselves and export those palliative technologies to the rest of the world. The fact that we flailed around in Afghanistan and then attacked the most stable government in the immediate area is inexcusable--but it is instructive.

 

If we had stopped the hijackers on the no-fly list--if we had struck the camps after we failed to use the no-fly list, and had then allowed the UN to handle the Taliban--we could have tackled a lot of more complex international problems instead of exacerbating them. Hell, if we had tried studying that region 40 years ago instead of just trying to build on our preconcieved notions and cold war yinyang thinking, which is what the CIA was recuiting people to do at that time, we could have been much better to our people and their people. If we had paid attention to the leaders of Southeast Asia instead of deposing them, we could have helped stabilize that region instead of destabilizing it. From what members of the Sihanouk family told me at the time (off the record), it was our refusal to provide humanitarian aid without military aid that drove those countries to other sources of income. What could we have done with all the blood and treasure lost in that region? (And we must remember that blood is treasure--by far the greatest treasure.)

 

We are self-centered idiots when it comes to the rest of the world. Always have been, always will be. And this time I'm not being sarcastic, although I'm definitely not being as cautious as I should. I hope I don't need to become as paranoid as the Afghanis and Iranians I've known over the years.

 

We are the great white whale, powerful, unpredictable, and vastly dangerous. If history is a useful guide, we might possibly do the right thing, but it might well take us a century or two to get around to it. And even then we're likely to change our minds and decide we really wanted to do the wrong thing after all. Remember that just last fall John McCain got 45% of the vote after reminding that ranting woman in the audience that Barack Obama wasn't an Arab; he was a good man.

 

To borrow language from mental health social work, we pose a danger both to ourselves and to others.

 

--lemit

 

(About the CIA thing, a minor State Department official was driving a group of my Middle Eastern friends around while they were handling paperwork to be able to stay in the U.S. on student visas. I was tagging along. While the friends were all out of the car taking care of papers, the official started asking me a lot of personal questions about likes and dislikes, tastes, personal interests, hopes and dreams, as well as my thinking about foreign policy, which was a very popular topic at that time. Of course, knowing I was a reporter, he asked if I wouldn't like to work for USIA. Later, I asked my friends if the guy was coming on to me. They laughed and told me he was a CIA recruiter who had had similar conversations with all of them, eventually turning to what they could do for their countries. Apparently my anger with my own country's foreign policy made me not a favorable candidate, although the recruiter reportedly had better luck with a few of the students. Whether that success included other kinds of contact I couldn't say.)

[lemit]

Oh, I almost forgot . . .

 

 

USA! USA! USA!

[Larv]

Afghanistan + Iraq + Vietnam + Korea = Military-Industrial Complex + Coca-Cola + MacDonalds + Wal-mart

 

Trotsky: “Capitalism is a way to keep working men from thinking too much.”

 

Larv: “Communism is a way to keep thinking men from working too much.”

 

Jesus Christ: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace but a sword.”

 

Pogo: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

 

Ricky Nelson: “Well, it’s all right now. I’ve learned my lesson well. You can’t please everyone, so you got to please yourself.”

 

Conclusion: Only cartoon characters and dead rock stars make any sense.

[lemit]

Afghanistan + Iraq + Vietnam + Korea = Military-Industrial Complex + Coca-Cola + MacDonalds + Wal-mart

 

Trotsky: “Capitalism is a way to keep working men from thinking too much.”

 

Larv: “Communism is a way to keep thinking men from working too much.”

 

Jesus Christ: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace but a sword.”

 

Pogo: “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

 

Ricky Nelson: “Well, it’s all right now. I’ve learned my lesson well. You can’t please everyone, so you got to please yourself.”

 

Conclusion: Only cartoon characters and dead rock stars make any sense.

 

Into which group would you put yourself? I don't want to cause trouble. I just want to know if I guessed right.

 

--lemit

[Larv]

Into which group would you put yourself? I don't want to cause trouble. I just want to know if I guessed right.

lemit, I’m with Pogo. The United States has meddled atrociously in too many affairs beyond our borders. It started with Panama and never quit. Our capitalistic military-industrial complex only fuels our foreign intrigue. We think nothing now of pre-emptively invading a sovereign nation and taking out its leader. When there’s big bucks to be made on military matters and warfare a capitalistic society will grind the wheels of industry to make those bucks.

 

And we’ll do in the name of Jesus and natural security.

[lemit]

lemit, I’m with Pogo. The United States has meddled atrociously in too many affairs beyond our borders. It started with Panama and never quit. Our capitalistic military-industrial complex only fuels our foreign intrigue. We think nothing now of pre-emptively invading a sovereign nation and taking out its leader. When there’s big bucks to be made on military matters and warfare a capitalistic society will grind the wheels of industry to make those bucks.

 

And we’ll do in the name of Jesus and natural security.

 

I guessed right, although partly for the most superficial of reasons: your avatar looks a little cartoonish.

 

I suppose your Panama reference is 19th Century Panama rather than 20th Century Panama, which was kind of in the middle of the game.

 

As I write this, I'm watching "Apocalypse Now Redux," the re-edited "Apocaplypse Now," with an extra hour. I think all U.S. Diplomatic Service people, including janitors, should be required to read Heart of Darkness until they understand it better than Conrad did.

 

--lemit

[Larv]

Obama’s Afghanistan is "serious and deteriorating". How utterly predictable! Here it comes again, folks. We never, never, never, never learn how not to do this. It’s a sure bet that we’ll go right on doing it anyway.

 

And now Obama owns it. He’s only seven months into his term of office and he already has two big potential losers looking him squarely in the eye: healthcare reform and Afghanistan.

 

“Serious and deteriorating,” indeed!

[Theory5]

According to the most recent polling, just over 50 per cent of Americans believe the war in Afghanistan is not worth fighting, and Americans are against sending more troops by a ratio of two to one.

Hey, look, Vietnam all over again!

 

Seriously, this war was never a necessity, and it should be stopped at once. We have destroyed so many countries with our notion that we need to police the whole world. Jeez, we are worse than Team America at this.

Take the Panema Deception, we go in, blow stuff up, arrest the "president-for-life" which was the only good thing, and then leave, take all our troops with us and leave nobody to police the area, allowing for widespread looting and killing, screwing up their economy and killing most small businesses.

 

One of the biggest things about this war is how much was covered up or how much the american people dont even care about it. Do you remember, back in Iraq, where two soldiers (a man, and a woman) made a pyramid out of naked prisoners of war? It was all over the news. But ofcourse, nobody Ive mentioned it to remembers. Then what about our collective punishment, siegeing towns and cities, killing thousands of innocents, and refusing to allow medical care to help them?

RAMADI, Sep 18 (IPS) - U.S. forces are taking to collective punishment of civilians in several cities across the al-Anabar province west of Baghdad, residents and officials say.

taken from IRAQ: U.S. Resorting to 'Collective Punishment' - IPS ipsnews.net

 

"Ramadi, the capital of al-Anbar province, is still living with the daily terror of its people getting killed by snipers and its infrastructure being destroyed," Ahmad, a local doctor who withheld his last name for security purposes told IPS. "This city has been facing the worst of the American terror and destruction for more than two years now, and the world is silent."

 

taken from IRAQ: U.S. Resorting to 'Collective Punishment' - IPS ipsnews.net

 

I think we are doing exactly as bush said we are doing

[paraphrase]It is our job to bring the war on terror to iraq[/paraphrase]

 

Who are the real terrorists? We have invaded two nations and are terrorizing them in the name of "freedom". So, how many more terrorists have we arrested? Or are our troops on shoot to kill orders of anybody not part of the American army?

 

On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of 200 people defied a curfew imposed by the Americans and gathered outside a secondary school used as a military HQ to demand its reopening. Soldiers from the 82nd Airborne stationed on the roof of the building fired upon the crowd, resulting in the deaths of 17 civilians and the wounding of over 70.[9] The events leading up to the event are disputed. American forces claim they were responding to gunfire from the crowd, while the Iraqis involved deny this version, although conceding rocks were thrown at the troops. A protest against the killings two days later was also fired upon by US troops resulting in two more deaths.

taken from Fallujah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Larv]

Anger at Israeli settlement plan: Israel has officially approved the construction of more than 450 new homes in the occupied West Bank.

 

What has Israel done for you lately? For me, it has continued to fulminate trouble in the Middle East, causing great costs in lives and treasure. Israel’s game is to provoke terrorists and exacerbate conflict. America’s complicity in Israel’s aggression is shameful. We never, never learn. Why? Because we are capitalists and we value all things in terms of money.

 

As such, the good side of all of this is that the Bible says Jesus will come as a result of Israeli aggression and conflict—Armageddon, you know. Furthermore, that said same Armageddon will be good for capitalism, not unlike WWII. The world will need a lot of Big Macs and Cokes get us through. "We are the world. We are the children..."

[Theory5]

Anger at Israeli settlement plan: Israel has officially approved the construction of more than 450 new homes in the occupied West Bank.

 

What has Israel done for you lately? For me, it has continued to fulminate trouble in the Middle East, causing great costs in lives and treasure. Israel’s game is to provoke terrorists and exacerbate conflict. America’s complicity in Israel’s aggression is shameful. We never, never learn. Why? Because we are capitalists and we value all things in terms of money.

 

As such, the good side of all of this is that the Bible says Jesus will come as a result of Israeli aggression and conflict—Armageddon, you know.

The middle east is always in turmoil because of religion. They can not simply accept other peoples believes, they think that there religion must control or wipe out the others. Because of this, there is always going to be fighting until somebody detonates enough nukes to wipe them out, our soldiers kill them all, or one religion prevails.

I'm not sure why we are allies with Israel, or why we try to insert ourselves into middle eastern affairs. Perhaps its because they have huge reserves of oil. Or we want their sand...

People claim addiction is bad yet they fuel an addiction every day. They fuel their oil addiction. The oil and gas companies love being the sole providers of fuel, because that gives them sooooo much control over everybody. Let me ask you this, how long did it take to pass the emissions laws? Why was so much time given to these companies to change their ways? I bet it has something to do with the politicians getting a cash 'supplement' from these companies.

 

Furthermore, that said same Armageddon will be good for capitalism, not unlike WWII. The world will need a lot of Big Macs and Cokes get us through.

 

This is another thing that is wrong with this country. Wherever there is war, companies will profit, where ever there is mass destruction, companies will profit. Where ever there is fear, companies will profit. They Will and the Do, always. They exploit the masses for their own gains, building on fear and instability.

Peace Is Unprofitable!

[lemit]

The last time I read Heart of Darkness I came away with a feeling Conrad demonstrated in the book but seemed to be unaware of; his mind, I think, was more on the English than on the Colonials.

 

Conrad, seemingly without attempting to, cemented my feeling that people should not interfere in other people's lives or cultures. I've been lucky to work with museums and libraries devoted to preservation of local culture, as well as the other kind, and have thought those which showed what their area had to offer were much more informative than those which showed what money and military superiority could obtain.

 

For the most part, those who are most interested in keeping us in foreign countries are also the most appalled at the idea that people might actually come here from those countries. Israel has a different group of supporters. It is, like Liberia, something of a penance. (We're sorry for your suffering. Here, take some land.)

 

Still, we need to find a way to provide aid and comfort to people without distorting or removing their cultures. They all have their own version of The Golden Rule. They know when we aren't following it.

 

--lemit

[Theory5]

 

Still, we need to find a way to provide aid and comfort to people without distorting or removing their cultures. They all have their own version of The Golden Rule. They know when we aren't following it.

 

--lemit

Interesting, I will have to read Heart Of Darkness. Every person and group of people who try to 'help' other countries have their own agenda's. I belive it is not the American Government's goal to provide help for most of these countries, because if it was they would have sent supplies to help with the H1N1 (swine flu) in Mexico. While swine flu is like the flu, Mexico has a particularly difficult time when hit with any such illness because most of their population doesn't have enough money to adequately protect themselves, and some cant even keep themselves clean enough to prevent disease. Here its only a problem for the young old and ill because we have good health care, and we keep ourselves clean.

 

There are thousands of things we could have done and could be doing to help other countries, without changing their ways except for the better (not like the way WE think is better like creating a new government for these countries, I mean medicine, better shelter, protection, food, clean water, etc.).