Transpersonal Psychology: Invitation to Dialogue

[Michael Mooney]

Hi folks. First post in this section.

 

(Near being banned for radical honesty in the science and philosophy of science sections. Telling the truth as one sees it is way low on the priorities of social protocol compared to being polite over there. Truth telling is absolutely essential to transpersonal psych.... and existential authenticitty.)

 

When i got my masters in psych, there was no "transpersonal psychology." But I had been meditating an hour a day since I was 21, a few years previous to my psych/philosophy dual masters in '70.

I had discovered the realm of the mystics which transcended "personal identity," yet there was no application for that realization in the field of psychology. It was still mostly about the four main "schools"... behavioral (Skinnerian+), classical analytical (Freud and successors), Gestalt (Pearls and permutations) and the humanistic 'feelings focus' and "self improvement"... plethora.

 

My philosophical interest had become focused on the varieties of existentialism, so my eventual thesis became: "Existential Freedom as a Basis for Psychotherapy." I became an "existential psychologist" In the absence of 'transpersonal psych.' Had the "field" pretty much to myself locally. There were other pioneers... Victor Frankle's "Logotherapy"... Carl Rodgers' "Rogerian" psych.... Jaspers' "paper" on... "the Encapsulated Man" and his message to break free from "cultural programs."

 

Yet I felt the gap between the ultimate 'existential freedom' to most authentically and uniquely "be yourself" and this spiritual realization which transcended "personal self" identity altogether... the realm of classical spiritual enlightenment. After the 'seventies', this 'gap' disappeared and i found a way to serve without the restrictions of these academic categories.

It was clear that there is One Cosmos (that we know of) and that we are all parts and participants, however conscious we are of our 'identity in unity" with the Greater Whole, whatever we choose to call It.

 

Since this is just a thread opener... not a 'blog', academic 'paper' or a book, Ill stop here and invite dialogue (respectful conversation.)

 

Obviously this conversation will be of a spiritual nature. But "theology' is usually more about religious doctrine, which is really not the same.

 

Anyway I invite all who are interested in the subject to join in, whether or not you have direct experience of the "transpersonal realm"... much less "enlightenment."

Welcome.

Michael

[pamela]

(Near being banned for radical honesty in the science and philosophy of science sections. Telling the truth as one sees it is way low on the priorities of social protocol compared to being polite over there. Truth telling is absolutely essential to transpersonal psych.... and existential authenticitty.)

Michael, I don't think it was the radical honesty, but your lack of politeness. This forum isn't about heated debate. Present your ideas in a gentlemanly manner and provide the appropriate supporting links.

It was clear that there is One Cosmos (that we know of) and that we are all parts and participants, however conscious we are of our 'identity in unity" with the Greater Whole, whatever we choose to call It.

This is curious statement. How would you define unity? To successfully unite, should we not be respectful to one another? Within that respect, kindness would likely allow for a peaceful coexistance.

If we are being true to ourselves in brutal honesty, we should look at the source of what triggers aggression and harsh sarcastic words. Would you say as a psychologist, this is part of your natural self? or could it simply be part of past events that we have not reconciled within ourselves, that drive us to lash out against others in retaliation to their words. To better understand what would be our transpersonal self, should not all areas of our personality be addressed?

[Michael Mooney]

Michael, I don't think it was the radical honesty, but your lack of politeness. This forum isn't about heated debate. Present your ideas in a gentlemanly manner and provide the appropriate supporting links.

This is curious statement. How would you define unity? To successfully unite, should we not be respectful to one another? Within that respect, kindness would likely allow for a peaceful coexistance.

If we are being true to ourselves in brutal honesty, we should look at the source of what triggers aggression and harsh sarcastic words. Would you say as a psychologist, this is part of your natural self? or could it simply be part of past events that we have not reconciled within ourselves, that drive us to lash out against others in retaliation to their words. To better understand what would be our transpersonal self, should not all areas of our personality be addressed?

 

Hi Pamela,

"Truth seeking" in the spiritual sense requires a radically honest willingness to surrender the illusions of "personal identity and allow Truth speakers ((Teachers in the spiritual sense) to "hold the illusory identity to the fire of purification" ( a common concept in Eastern spirituality.)

 

Here is one of my favorite quotes in that regard. It comes from Ken Wilber (most brilliant integral philosopher, in my opinion) introducing a book by his buddy Andrew Cohen ( spiritual Teacher and founder of "What is Enlightenment" magazine.) It is known as Ken's "Rude Boys" quote:

 

" If you want encouragement, soft smiles, ego stroking, gentle caresses of your self-contracting ways, pats on the back and sweet words of solace, find yourself a Nice Guy or Good Girl, and hold their hand on the sweet path of stress reduction and egoic comfort. But if you want Enlightenment, if you want to wake up, if you want to get fried in the fire of passionate Infinity, then, I promise you: find yourself a Rude Boy or a Nasty Girl, the ones who make you uncomfortable in their presence, who scare you witless, who will turn on you in a second and hold you up for ridicule, who will make you wish you were never born, who will offer you not sweet comfort but abject terror, not saccharin solace but scorching angst, for then, just then, you might very well be on the path to your own Original Face."

 

This is about getting over the false, egocentric pseudo-identity.

 

Then there is the whole realm of knowing who we really are in that "identity-in-unity" i spoke of above.

 

Here is another Wilber quote in that context, which will resonate with what you said above:

 

"If your identity expands to embrace the Kosmos, you will treat all sentient beings with respect and kindness, for they are all perfect manifestations of the same radiant Self, which is your very own Self as well. This comes to you in a direct realisation of the Supreme Identity, precisely because identity can span the entire spectrum of consciousness, matter to body to mind to soul to spirit, with each expansion bringing a greater moral embrace, until the all itself is embraced with passionate equanimity."

 

It"s all about context. The two quotes appear blatantly contradictory, but

the "flame thrower approach" to "toasting" the "self" has its place. Then, after awakening from the illusory "separate self" into the True Self, the latter is fully honored as in the second quote.

 

Thanks for your interest and reply.

Michael

[lemit]

"Truth seeking" in the spiritual sense requires a radically honest willingness to surrender the illusions of "personal identity and allow Truth speakers ((Teachers in the spiritual sense) to "hold the illusory identity to the fire of purification" ( a common concept in Eastern spirituality.)

 

This is the West. Western mysticism teaches that unity with all comes from inside. The only purification is in "The Dark Night Of the Soul," the fourth of the five stages. This also comes from inside, as do all lessons in life.

 

Existentialism also teaches us that the choices we make are our own. It teaches us to reject outside influences and turn inward, where we can, without being lectured by someone pretending to be a superior being, make those choices that represent what is moral despite the impossibility of truly moral consequences. And we can also find that peace and unity of spirit, conscience, and social responsibility that is a truly unfettered soul.

 

I don't see how your philosophy is consistent with your actions. I recognize all the words you use. They've been familiar to me for a long time. The thought processes and belief systems they represent have been a part of me all my life. I recognize the words, but I don't recognize their juxtapositions. If you approach the ineffability of mysticism and the discipline of existentialism from the outside, they can seem very superficial and requiring of external force (putting a round peg into a square hole). If you approach them from the inside, they are on the one hand a breathtakingly familiar and comfortable place, and on the other hand a compelling reason to act in the absence of reason.

 

In both cases, the most you can do is gently lead people to those places. You (and I mean the specific you) must first find those places for yourself to be able to lead others to them. In those places, your IQ, your education, and your excellent qualifications are as meaningless as they would be to a grain of sand in the desert, which is the approximate size of each us alone.

 

It is only the quality of your character that really matters. Please let us see that.

 

--lemit

[pamela]

Michael, your tone has softened, which in turn, will draw me further into this dialogue. As far as your first quote, it is rather extreme.Encouragement and soft words can produce a calm that allows us to think deeply and clearly in our quest for knowledge. Constructive criticism allows us to see ourselves from a different perspective and recognise where we need to change or grow. The nasty girl and rude boy tactics only serve to belittle us and drive us away from change through a bruised heart or a deflated ego.This does not allow us to confront self but to avoid it.

I find the second quote disturbing. It speaks of an egotistical self, being the supreme I, as it were. It is in only denying self, with it's puffed up over inflated all consuming want of I, that we embrace others with selfless acts of kindness and words that express our love of humanity

[Michael Mooney]

Michael, your tone has softened, which in turn, will draw me further into this dialogue. As far as your first quote, it is rather extreme.Encouragement and soft words can produce a calm that allows us to think deeply and clearly in our quest for knowledge. Constructive criticism allows us to see ourselves from a different perspective and recognise where we need to change or grow. The nasty girl and rude boy tactics only serve to belittle us and drive us away from change through a bruised heart or a deflated ego.This does not allow us to confront self but to avoid it.

I find the second quote disturbing. It speaks of an egotistical self, being the supreme I, as it were. It is in only denying self, with it's puffed up over inflated all consuming want of I, that we embrace others with selfless acts of kindness and words that express our love of humanity

 

Pamela,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think that when Wilber counsels seekers to find a "rude boy" or "nasty girl" Teacher, it is assumed that such Teacher (with a capital 'T') is an enlightened one. He sees his friend Andrew Cohen as such and in his context, is actually recommending Cohen as one who can expose the egocentric identity for the illusion it is. So the seeker who accepts such a Teacher agrees to surrender ego in preparation for awakening into the True Self Identity, which is the same (universal) Identity in all individuals.

 

The latter, then is the context for the second quote.

 

"If your identity expands to embrace the Kosmos, you will treat all sentient beings with respect and kindness, for they are all perfect manifestations of the same radiant Self, which is your very own Self as well. This comes to you in a direct realisation of the Supreme Identity, precisely because identity can span the entire spectrum of consciousness, matter to body to mind to soul to spirit, with each expansion bringing a greater moral embrace, until the all itself is embraced with passionate equanimity."

 

All enlightened ones have found this same Universal Identity and realized that the "personal, separate identity' is illusory. Wilber's use of the term "Kosmos" denotes this One Universal Being in Whom the individual awakens into indentity-in-unity.

 

Michael

[Michael Mooney]

lemit:

This is the West. Western mysticism teaches that unity with all comes from inside. The only purification is in "The Dark Night Of the Soul," the fourth of the five stages. This also comes from inside, as do all lessons in life.

 

Spiritual awakening is universal, transcending cultural etnocentricity including the old East vs West dichotomy and battles.

 

Non-dual awareness (conscious unity beyond the illusion of duality) transcends "inner vs outer" as well as East vs West.

The Universal Identity into which one awakens is both an "inside job" of ego-surrender and realizatiobn that the whole cosmos is One Intelligent Being... the same Identity manifesting as all forms/individuals.

 

Existentialism also teaches us that the choices we make are our own. It teaches us to reject outside influences and turn inward, where we can, without being lectured by someone pretending to be a superior being, make those choices that represent what is moral despite the impossibility of truly moral consequences. And we can also find that peace and unity of spirit, conscience, and social responsibility that is a truly unfettered soul.

 

As I mentioned above, I began my career as an "existential counselor" valuing the unique individuality and authenticity to be "myself" and for "other selves" to exercise personal freedom above all else, short of harming others, of course.

 

Then after a few more years of meditation I found the mystic realm which transcends "personal identity." Then I became a transpersonal counselor... and a meditation teacher.

 

In this realm one realizes that ones cultural conditioning is like robotic programing, and ultimately, one can not be FREE until the illusion of personal identity (and all its program) is transcended.

All those "programs" are essentially specific versions of the following:

"This is who I am. This is what I want. To the extent I don't get what I want, I am unhappy, and I spread that unhappiness around as various forms of discontent."

 

True Freedom is freedom from all versions of the above program.

 

It is only the quality of your character that really matters. Please let us see that.

 

It is my intent to make a fresh start in this thread. Please don't drag my perceived offenses from other sections/threads here. I am in totally respectful mode and ask the same of all participants.

 

In "real life," besides my career as stated, I am First Trustee of an 80 acre land trust and intentional community. We are living in harmony with nature and focused on awakening to our ultimate Identity-in-unity. We are radically honest... which means we say it as we see it in all cases, including cases of egocentricity. We are absolutely respectful of our True Identity.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Michael

[Michael Mooney]

I overlooked this statement by pamela:

To better understand what would be our transpersonal self, should not all areas of our personality be addressed?

 

Maybe my subsequent posts answered it, but, just to be specific...

 

Transpersonal psychology addresses the field of consciousness beyond personality.

It begins where Abraham Maslow's "hierarchy of needs" leaves off.. beyond the "self" in "self-actualization."

Transpersonal psych assumes a healthy ego rather than a dysfunctional personality in need of personal therapy. It addresses the next phase of "human potential" development beyond egocentricity and ethnocentricity. Awakening into awareness as a "world citizen" in all respects including ecological, and socio-political is part of it. Spiritual consciousness is also an aspect including and transcending the latter two realms. This realm transcends religion and its battles over beliefs and its resultant atrocities like "holy wars"... the ultimate oxymoron.

 

It is not about who is the "most enlightened." "Light" is the universal metaphor for Consciousness. It is the same "Light" shining on and from all forms/individuals. The "real-I-zation" (if you will) of this is enlightenment, and it requires "getting over yourself."

 

I hope this is not considered "proselytizing." It has nothing to do with advocacy of a specific religious doctrine, and is universal among mystics of all "Traditions" ... and of no tradition, such as "me."

Michael

[lawcat]

I do not blame you for posting your IQ, or rubbing it in people's face. If that is how they perceive, that is their problem. I personally find IQ waving funny and immature, but not annoying.

 

Truth exists, but it needs to be brought to light. How we go about it is important. I think Freeztar asked for more politness in stating your truth. However, there is no objective standard for that.

 

I got rejected here for stating that science is ignorant of humanity, because it rejects the need of humanity for freedom of religion. Yet, science claims to be objective and humane. Religion exists regardless of perception, and science is all about questioning perception. The two have no need to attack each other.

 

If it is transpersonal psychology that requires getting beyond oneself, I am all for it. Science must get over itself, and its feeling of superiority in all fields of life.

[lemit]

lemit:

 

 

Spiritual awakening is universal, transcending cultural etnocentricity including the old East vs West dichotomy and battles.

 

Non-dual awareness (conscious unity beyond the illusion of duality) transcends "inner vs outer" as well as East vs West.

The Universal Identity into which one awakens is both an "inside job" of ego-surrender and realizatiobn that the whole cosmos is One Intelligent Being... the same Identity manifesting as all forms/individuals.

 

 

 

As I mentioned above, I began my career as an "existential counselor" valuing the unique individuality and authenticity to be "myself" and for "other selves" to exercise personal freedom above all else, short of harming others, of course.

 

Then after a few more years of meditation I found the mystic realm which transcends "personal identity." Then I became a transpersonal counselor... and a meditation teacher.

 

In this realm one realizes that ones cultural conditioning is like robotic programing, and ultimately, one can not be FREE until the illusion of personal identity (and all its program) is transcended.

All those "programs" are essentially specific versions of the following:

"This is who I am. This is what I want. To the extent I don't get what I want, I am unhappy, and I spread that unhappiness around as various forms of discontent."

 

True Freedom is freedom from all versions of the above program.

 

 

 

It is my intent to make a fresh start in this thread. Please don't drag my perceived offenses from other sections/threads here. I am in totally respectful mode and ask the same of all participants.

 

In "real life," besides my career as stated, I am First Trustee of an 80 acre land trust and intentional community. We are living in harmony with nature and focused on awakening to our ultimate Identity-in-unity. We are radically honest... which means we say it as we see it in all cases, including cases of egocentricity. We are absolutely respectful of our True Identity.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Michael

 

Your response was a surprise pleasant beyond my fondest hopes. Thank you. May you cultivate your humility as you cultivate your land. And may they both bear ample fruit.

 

--lemit

[Michael Mooney]

lemit:

Your response was a surprise pleasant beyond my fondest hopes. Thank you. May you cultivate your humility as you cultivate your land. And may they both bear ample fruit.

Thank you!

I must tell you, however, that I do not aspire or intend to "cultivate (my) humility." I do not consider humility a virtue but rather one of those socially conditioned programs mentioned above... an obstacle to true freedom.

 

Further I must remind you that one who aspires to be the most humble is ironically striving to be admired for that humility... and the 'winner' of such a 'humility contest' is the least honest and humble.

 

One person's blessing (like yours above) is another's curse. I do not share your values/morality in this regard.

But thanks again for your benevolent intent.

Michael.

[Michael Mooney]

I do not blame you for posting your IQ, or rubbing it in people's face. If that is how they perceive, that is their problem. I personally find IQ waving funny and immature, but not annoying.

 

Truth exists, but it needs to be brought to light. How we go about it is important. I think Freeztar asked for more politness in stating your truth. However, there is no objective standard for that.

 

I got rejected here for stating that science is ignorant of humanity, because it rejects the need of humanity for freedom of religion. Yet, science claims to be objective and humane. Religion exists regardless of perception, and science is all about questioning perception. The two have no need to attack each other.

 

If it is transpersonal psychology that requires getting beyond oneself, I am all for it. Science must get over itself, and its feeling of superiority in all fields of life.

 

I agree that the two have no need to attack each other.

 

from my post 13 in "Re: Reconciling science and religion: doomed to fail" thread":

 

"Religion" per se is about beliefs, based on doctrines which "program" the minds of the believer much like robots.

Spiritual awakening is another animal altogether....

 

I "believe" that science and mystic realization, as above, will one day find common ground and learn to "play well together"... as long as "creationism" doesn't persist in calling itself science!

(I,m half mystic and half lay scientist, and these aspects have coalesced well within... not at war in any sense.)... the dynamic creation of cosmos is an always ongoing project... always "a work in progress." (The key may be found in the "intelligence" between entangled particles in quantum physics... or in how "remote viewing" works... tho still very controversial. Check out "The Intention Experiment"... author escaping memory at the moment.

 

The IQ thing contrasts my practice of radical honesty and by belief that humility is not a virtue with the common cultural values to the contrary. "Waiving it and rubbing it in peoples' faces?" I care not at all whether you share my values in this matter. And the moderators and others in my spacetime thread were constantly treating me as if I were stupid... still were last i looked... and I added another post in reply.

 

Michael

[pamela]

Michael, I do not believe that anyone here thinks you are stupid, much less have treated you thus. With or without the knowledge of your IQ, your posts have reflected intelligence. It may be a little difficult for some to understand your consciousness and ontological assertions, not every one thinks the way you do.

If you do not find that humility is a virtue, then do you feel that superiority is? Is that why you refer to I in real-I-zation?

[Michael Mooney]

Pamela:

If you do not find that humility is a virtue, then do you feel that superiority is? Is that why you refer to I in real-I-zation?

 

Personal virtues are all illusions created by ethnocentric/ religious cultural/moral conditioning. Obviously it is absolutely "immoral" to intentionally harm another person, for instance. But "humility" and "superiority" are really just moral values and judgments assigned by each culture, and they vary drastically cross-culturally.

 

I refer to the capital "I" in "real-I-zation" as the one true Identity in all, which is only 'realized' after ego is either surrendered... usually through some kind of intentional spiritual discipline of ego-surrender or through circumstances through which the ego/false-identity gives up in total despair of the meaning of life... as sought by the despairing seeker.

 

After the "I, Me, Mine" finally disintegrates (totally!, leaving a void!) the Universal Identity is automatically realized as the Reality which the illusion of personal identity had always obscured. Reality is what is left after the illusion disappears.

 

Michael

[maddog]

Michael,

 

I have got to admit that I have enjoyed reading this thread, and that I have a bit better

sense of the "real" you. I like what I see. Sorry if I brought about another version in

other threads.

 

I have only read a couple of books by Ken Wilber, so only have a limited experience of

him. I have done meditation and also martial arts. A lot of this has had an impact on

my melding the body and spirit.

 

As I said elsewhere, I have leanings towards the Gnostic frame of thinking over generic

Christian religions. I feel personally "touched" by God as I also feel personally connected

to everyone and the universe.

 

If you don't mind, I may check in here from time to time to read up on this thread.

 

Later and have a great day.

 

maddog

[Michael Mooney]

OK... Who are you and what have you done with maddog? :huh:

Michael

[maddog]

OK... Who are you and what have you done with maddog? :)

Michael

Oh, we're being funny now....

 

maddog