Spinoffs from Do you believe in Evolution poll thread

[InfiniteNow]

I am not ignoring any accomplishments of science, or evolution. I am simply reminding you what the widely accepted definition of life is.

 

Tell me again what the widely accepted definition of life is?

[InfiniteNow]

...but I do like the quantum link with Life's origin. :doh:

Me too. If I'm not mistaken, this field of study is called Biophysics? Can you correct me if I'm wrong? Quantum Biogenesis has a nice ring to it as well.

[Thunderbird]

It wasn't my intention to suggest you were lying. If that is how I came across, then I sincerely apologize.

 

Let me be clear, my intention was to suggest that you were delusional. Sorry for the confusion. :doh:

 

Let me be clear where I stand on the Creationism. It is B.S. When I was 11 years old, I went to Sunday school and has told the bible stories. I then discovered science and my beloved dinosaurs. When I ask my mother about the inconsistency between the bible and my science books, she said a very wise thing. “No one really knows for sure, figure it out for yourself“. I stopped going to church and For the next 34 years I have read my science books, and journals.

 

Two years ago I began going to another community church and started attend Sunday school every week. We discuss evolution there and the consensus is Christianity is about helping people and evolution is in the realm of science.

Our minister is the head of the Ministerial alliance, which encompasses about 47 churches of varies denominations in our small community in the Midwest. He is called upon on regular basis by other ministers to do something about the “Teaching of evolution in our schools.” He explains to them that this is not church business, The church is to help the needy. I am very happy with my church, and proud of the people I have discovered there.

[Thunderbird]

Tell me again what the widely accepted definition of life is?

 

You must like redundancy.

Chilean biologists Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela see in metabolism the essence of something quite fundamental to life. They call it "autopoiesis." Coming from Greek roots meaning self (auto) and making (poien, as in "poetry"), autopoiesis refers to life’s continuous production of itself. Without autopoietic behavior, organic beings do not self-maintain—they are not alive.

An autopoietic entity metabolizes continuously; it perpetuates itself through chemical activity, the movement of molecules. Autopoiesis entails energy expenditure and the making of messes. Autopoiesis, indeed, is detectable by that incessant life chemistry and energy flow which is metabolism. Only cells, organisms made of cells, and biospheres made of organisms are autopoietic and can metabolize. —Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, What is Life?

[Thunderbird]

Tell me again what the widely accepted definition of life is?

 

Here is a more detailed definition.

 

 

 

While Capra concentrates his discussion on living things, the idea behind the concept of structure–organization–process is one in which a process [self] organizes [its own] structure (autopoieses as defined by Maturana and Varela, 1987). As we can see, the definitions for these three elements are a little confusing. This is why the idea of structure–organization–process (SOP) has been applied more generally by Linda Glassop (2007).

 

At the level of a real thing, SOP describes:

• Structure refers to the attributes distinguishing something (trait, value, shape and efficacy).

• Organization refers to parts that comprise something: the properties (evident by valued traits), and their relationship (evident by their shape and efficacy).

• Process refers to the constitution of parts (the bundle of related properties) that produces a whole thing.

 

In the ontological literature, SOP describes:

• Structure refers closed systems (or the attributes of the universe that are independent).

• Organization refers to open systems (or the parts of the universe that depend on closed systems).

• Process refers to social systems (or the wholes that are inter–dependent on closed and open systems that make up eco–systems, e.g., the universe).

[InfiniteNow]

Here is a more detailed definition.

 

I thought it was a "widely accepted definition of life." Your link expressly states that it's a concept... an idea...

[Thunderbird]

I thought it was a "widely accepted definition of life." Your link expressly states that it's a concept... an idea...

 

 

Autopoeitic/ self replicating, Widely accepted, yes, the more detailed descriptions I gave or open to conceptualities of course. Just not to yours.

[Essay]

Me too. If I'm not mistaken, this field of study is called Biophysics? Can you correct me if I'm wrong? Quantum Biogenesis has a nice ring to it as well.

Quantum Biogenesis: Kind of reminds me of a Star Trek movie....

 

Biophysics class was a lot of math (calculus), and trying to figure out how to write equations for multiple, non-linear, interacting processes with lots of variables. It certainly wasn't looking at the origin of life (or even quantum effects). However, that was back in the late 70's.

 

I've recently seen quantum effects used to explain the olfactory mechanism (and I suspect a similar mechanism allows for memory, but....).

I could go on about quantum, decoherence effects as being an artifact of this illusory 3D space we perceive, but still I don't think it relates to the origins of life.

 

If (by thinking "quantum") you're wondering about the true nature of reality and how that relates to the origins of life, then I think it's easier to see life as derived from the forces of nature; themselves derived from the higher (11?) dimensional, omnipresent, omnipotent reality that informs our universe.

 

These kind of musings should probably be on the philosophy (or maybe physics) forum;

but regardless of the meaning or purpose of evolution, what do you think about these newly revealed epigenetic mechanisms for change and adaptability? (sorry I can't post links yet).

 

It's quite the example of emergent qualities coming from complex adaptive systems. Just methylation and "copy-number polymorphisms" alone provide mechanisms much more varied than random mutations.

 

p.s.

...looking back through this thread I see a lot depends on definitions (as with much of life and love).

[C1ay]

adaptation is the correct word.

 

Is that how you would describe the variety of species in the genus canis comprised of wolves, jackals, coyotes, dingoes and dogs (wolf descendants)? That none of the current canis species evolved from any of the prehistoric species that included canis acutus, canis africanus (African wolf), canis anceps, canis antiquus (Great wolf), canis apolloniensis, canis armbrusteri (Armbrusters Wolf), canis arnensis, canis atrox, canis avus, canis brachypus, canis brevirostris, canis cautleyi, canis cedazoensis, canis chiliensis (Chilean wolf), canis cipio, canis condoni, canis dirus (Dire Wolf), canis edwardii (Edward's wolf), canis ensenadensis, canis etruscus, canis falconeri, canis ferox, canis khomenkoi, canis kuruksaensis, canis lepophagus, canis lupaster, canis lycanoides, canis majori, canis medius, canis megamastoides, canis michauxi, canis moreni, canis mosbachensis, canis nehringi, canis neschersensis, canis palaeoplatensis, canis petenyi, canis protojubatus, canis protoplatensis, canis robustus, canis strandi (Strand's wolf), canis suessi, canis temerarius, canis terblanchei, canis troglodytes, canis ursinus, canis variabilis, canis velaunus, canis volgensis and canis yuanmoensis? That none of these prehistoric species or any of the current species classified under the canis genus are related in any way? Please enlighten us. We await the proof you have to support this.

[Thunderbird]

I presume you mean "Autopoietic?"

 

.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that amino acids led to protiens which led to cells like eukaryotes. The eukaryotic cell is probably the first example of what you have decided constitutes life, but that seems an arbitrary distinction which ignores all of the life which is not advanced as the eukaryote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I assume you mean Prokaryotes they are the precursors to Eukaryotic cells. again your skipping organizational steps.

 

 

Prokaryotes are primitive cells, without a nucleus or membrane bound organelles, has DNA located in a "nuclear area", but the DNA is not bound inside the nucleus as in Eukaryotes. Prokaryotes have ribosomes, although the ribosomes are slightly more primitive than Eukaryotic cells.

Credit: OUC

[Thunderbird]

It's quite the example of emergent qualities coming from complex adaptive systems. Just methylation and "copy-number polymorphisms" alone provide mechanisms much more varied than random mutations.

 

 

Exactly, I belive this is also connected to "quantum sampling"

or I'm I wrong.:eek:

[Essay]

Exactly, I belive this is also connected to "quantum sampling"

or I'm I wrong.:eek:

 

Quantum Sampling! I don't even know what that is, but I'm inspired.

 

My first thought is no, not any more that eating pizza is related to quantum sampling.

My second thought was that maybe the "random" mutations, but not the more complex regulatory mechanisms, are related.

My third thought... everything depends on ...sampling?

Philosophy forum needed. I will go ponder and wash dishes with inspiration.

 

BOT:

Epigenetics?

[Thunderbird]

Quantum Sampling! I don't even know what that is, but I'm inspired.

 

My first thought is no, not any more that eating pizza is related to quantum sampling.

My second thought was that maybe the "random" mutations, but not the more complex regulatory mechanisms, are related.

My third thought... everything depends on ...sampling?

Philosophy forum needed. I will go ponder and wash dishes with inspiration.

 

BOT:

Epigenetics?

 

I watched a program on epigenetic, PBS I believe it was. It seems that we carry within us an epigenetic memory of our recent ancestors. This shows that genetics has a much more complex hierarchal control system than previously thought.

 

I remember now that Quantum Sampling has to do with the theory that DNA is Quantum coherent, in that it can sample possible sequences on the quantum level.

In other words it is connected to “Bohms implicate whole” sampling every possible combination with out the constraints of a static historical past, or an unwritten future code. Non-linear in time.

[Thunderbird]

These are the best books on the subject.

 

 

 

 

Quantum Evolution: Life in the multiverse

 

 

 

… Johnjoe McFadden – Quantum Evolution

 

...Quantum measurement influences the dynamics of quantum particles. The cell’s ability to perform quantum measurements on its coding protons will therefore influence their dynamics. But recall that proton dynamics inside DNA bases are involved in another vitally important biological phenomenon: mutation. If the target DNA base is replicated whilst the proton is attached to its normal nitrogen atom, then DNA polymerase will insert the complementary adenine and the daughter DNA molecule will encode exactly the same inactive enzyme as the parent: no mutation. If however, the DNA base is replicated whilst the proton is attached to the tautomeric (enol) nitrogen atom, then DNA polymerase will insert the incorrect base, guanine, in the daughter DNA strand and thereby generate a mutation. Yet, for the proton to be present at either position (rather than in a state of superposition), a quantum measurement needs to be made; and that measurement can only be performed under the appropriate environmental conditions (presence of lactose). Conditional quantum measurement thereby sits astride the engine of evolution: mutation.

The frequency of mutation of the target gene will clearly depend on the proton’s dynamics: how much time it spends at the tautomeric nitrogen. If this time is short then the mutation will be rare; if it is longer then the mutation will be more frequent. If a dense series of measurements were performed on the target proton at the tautomeric position then the quantum Zeno effect could freeze its dynamics at that position. But, as we have discovered, the cell is able to perform a dense series of measurements on the coding proton, if lactose is available. These measurements, in the presence of lactose, may enhance the probability of the proton remaining at the tautomeric position and thereby accelerate the rate of generation of a mutation.

Adaptive mutations

But environmental enhancement of mutation rates is precisely the phenomenon discovered by John Cairns when he discovered those enigmatic adaptive mutations that I described in Chapter 3. If you remember, adaptive mutations occur more frequently when they are beneficial to the cell, in direct contradiction of standard Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory which states that mutations always occur randomly with respect to the direction of evolutionary change. The initial experiments performed by John Cairns, incubated E. coli cells that were unable to grow on lactose, on media containing lactose and on parallel media without lactose. If, as claimed by standard Neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory, mutations always occur randomly in relation to the direction of evolutionary change, then the same rate of mutation would be expected to be observed in both sets of cells. However, Cairns discovered that after a prolonged period of starvation, mutations that allowed the E. coli to utilise lactose increased in frequency. It appeared that the presence of lactose specifically enhanced mutations that allowed the cells to eat the lactose. The E. coli cell appeared to be able to direct its own mutations.

As I mentioned in Chapter 3, these experiments are still very controversial. Strict Neo-Darwinism is deeply ingrained in current biological thinking and most biologists are very reluctant to accept any revision of its dogmas. There is no question that the observations reported by Cairns are real; but many scientists maintain that there are likely to be more conventional explanations of Cairn’s experiments, than the existence of adaptive mutations. Nevertheless, others such as Professor Barry Hall at the University of Rochester have detected adaptive mutations in a variety of bacterial systems. In one of Hall’s most recent experiments he measured the mutation rates in non-growing E. coli cells for two different DNA bases in the same gene. When neither gene was beneficial then the mutations occurred at the same rate but when one of the genes conferred a selective advantage then its mutation rate was enhanced.

The problem with adaptive mutations is to provide a mechanism that could account for them. The interaction between the cell and its environment is conducted at the level of proteins, like beta galactosidase. The conventional information flow inside living cells is from DNA to RNA to protein. There is no conventional path by which information in the cell’s environment (the presence of lactose) can feedback to the DNA that encodes enzymes like beta galactosidase. The path: gene ® messenger RNA ® protein ® lactose is not reversible. Professor Hall commented in a recent paper that, … the selective generation of mutations by unknown means is a class of models that cannot, and should not, be rejected.

Quantum evolution may generate adaptive mutations by providing the required feedback loop: lactose ® protein ® messenger RNA ® gene, via conditional quantum measurement. The ability of the living cell to measure the positions of fundamental particles within the DNA double helix will be determined by the composition of its environment, in this case, the presence of lactose. Lactose arms the quantum measuring devices of the cell, enabling it to measure the position of the DNA protons that (potentially) encode the beta galactosidase enzyme. The cell may then perform a dense series of measurements on the position of DNA bases that will perturb the dynamics of those protons and hence enhance mutation rates. Quantum measurement may thereby enhance the rate of beneficial mutations to cause adaptive mutations and drive evolution

[Essay]

That's really cool.

Speculative, but cool.

 

It sounds as if this is all prompted by the observation:

"But environmental enhancement of mutation rates is precisely the phenomenon discovered by John Cairns when he discovered those enigmatic adaptive mutations...."

 

I think you might find that epigenetic mechanisms offer a possible solution to this quandry of enhanced adaptive mutations also.

 

Sorry to be so one tracked; soon I'll be able to post links.

[Essay]

Here's a nice taste of epigenetics.

 

Epigenetic regulation of gene expression: how the genome integrates intrinsic and environmental signals.

Mar.2003 Suppl., Vol.33 Issue 3, p.245-255, "Nature Genetics"

Cells of a multicellular organism are genetically homogeneous but structurally and functionally heterogeneous owing to the differential expression of genes. Many of these differences in gene expression arise during development and are subsequently retained through mitosis. Stable alterations of this kind are said to be 'epigenetic', because they are heritable in the short term but do not involve mutations of the DNA itself. Research over the past few years has focused on two molecular mechanisms that mediate epigenetic phenomena: DNA methylation and histone modifications. Here, we review advances in the understanding of the mechanism and role of DNA methylation in biological processes. Epigenetic effects by means of DNA methylation have an important role in development but can also arise stochastically as animals age. Identification of proteins that mediate these effects has provided insight into this complex process and diseases that occur when it is perturbed. External influences on epigenetic processes are seen in the effects of diet on long-term diseases such as cancer. Thus, epigenetic mechanisms seem to allow an organism to respond to the environment through changes in gene expression. The extent to which environmental effects can provoke epigenetic responses represents an exciting area of future research.

 

...and this is 5 years old now.

[goku]

Did you take chemistry in High School?

 

yes, i needed another science credit to graduate