Theorys on the 5th dimension

[Tormod]

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Originally posted by: Primal Fears

hey Tormod WOW u got some good facts that i had never looked at but i just had to ask you about your whole theory on that peace of paper on like the first or second page. you talk about bending TIMEand SPACE like a peace of paper witch as far as i can see can only be done in the movies. ok it may not be imposable but its very improbable and even if u could fold space and time how would u control all that power it woluld take to do it.. lol help me out hehe

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Hey, sorry I didn't see this posting until today. Anyway, the bend-a-sheet-of-paper idea is not mine at all. I don't remember where I have it from - I thought perhaps it was Stephen Hawking's "The Universe in a Nutshell", but I just checked it and it's not there (at least not in the illustrations).

 

But I think this idea is rather common. For example, if you look at this pagein the "Warp Drive, When?" website from NASA there is the following quote:

 

"To use an analogy: even if there were a speed limit to how fast a pencil could move across a piece of paper, the motion or changes to the paper is a separate issue. In the case of the wormhole, a shortcut is made by warping space (folding the paper) to connect two points that used to be separated."

 

The site is highly recommended, of course. When discussing dimensions, theories about black holes and warped space-time is very relevant.

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

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Originally posted by: BIG-D

Well, when you collaborate your thoughts and conjoin them together there were only 5 dimensions in the universe that we could comprehend in our own minds what the difference would be. I don’t know where these other people are getting 9. I think they’re just playing with you, man.

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BIG-D, in string theory there is a need for many more dimensions than 5. Here is one attempt at explaining why (but rest assured, you'll be as confused after you've read it as before).

 

The problem with dimensions is that they make sense, mathematically. It is possible to calculate, say, the size or shape of an object in n dimensions. This does not mean, as you correctly point out, that it is necessarily "real" in any sense. Many theories withhigher dimensions do, however, appear to solve difficult problems in particle physics and pure mathematics.

 

I think the thing with dimensions is that we are so used to thinking that here are 4 dimensions (line, square, box, time) that we just assume that the 5th dimension must be an extension of the others. When we draw a box in a chart where one axis is time and another is position in space, we get a snapshot of the 4 dimensional property of space-time (we see the shape as if time did not exist, a long row of interconnected boxes in various angles).

 

So what is the 5th dimension? I don't know. But there are an astounding number of theories about it. Search Google for "extra spatial dimensions" and you'll get tons of answers.

 

This is not just science fiction. Have a look at NOVA's page about Dimensions (part of their Elegant Universe series).

 

Tormod

[Primal Fears]

Hey Tormod thanks for the site it gave me some ideas.

[Aileanna]

This is something that i found. i hope it helps! it helped me and i am 13.

 

 

The following is based on Ouspensky's idea of the six dimensions. Some say there are three or four dimensions, some say more dimensions (10, 11, and 26 are current favorites of some physicists), some say there are an infinite number of dimensions. But Ouspensky's explanation of the six dimensions resolves that dilemma by showing how six dimensions are both all inclusive and yet only partial.

 

This entire area is at best only theoretical for me, but I find it gives me a valuable point of view in dealing with ideas of dimension, space and time. Ouspensky first developed his thoughts on the six dimensions prior to meeting the fourth way, but was later struck by certain correlations between the teaching of cosmoses in the fourth way and his thoughts on dimensions. He continued to develop and refine this theory, but I know of no final conclusion, or even late summation of it by him. What follows is my understanding of Ouspensky's ideas on this topic, and my personal differences with it are noted as such.

 

 

 

 

We do not perceive the universe as it is - in six dimensions. With thought, to some extent, we can do that, and that is what this paper is about. In theory, we can develop consciousness to the extent that it is able to perceive the additional dimensions.

 

Common Knowledge

In geometry, we learn that a point has no dimension, but a line is one-dimensional, it has length. A plane is two dimensional - length and breadth, for example, a triangle or circle. A solid is three-dimensional - length, breadth, and height, for example, a tetrahedron or a sphere.

 

Dimensions of Time

Here, I introduce a convenient "shorthand" for the discussion so far and that to come. In this phraseology, there are three dimensions of space, and three dimensions of time. What we have just done with the introduction of the fourth dimension is enter the first dimension of time. If the Frisbee is seen as a point (say from a great distance), the "Frisbee moving through the air" describes a line, the first dimension of time, or the four dimensions of space/time.

The fifth dimension, in Ouspensky's writings as I understand them, is the fourth dimension in infinite repetition. Here we can visualize it as the fifth dimension of space/time, in which the Frisbee plane (third dimension), moving along in time (fourth dimension), is repeated, or mirrored, in flights of infinite parallel Frisbees - infinite just as each of the previous successions in dimensionality are an infinite number of the previous dimension.

 

If we look at the fourth dimension of space-time as the first dimensions of time - the Frisbee as a point extended to describe a line - we now extend that line at right angles to itself to form a plane, the second dimension of time.

 

It seems to me that there is at least one possibility here that seems in line with quantum physics: that the fifth dimension is the moment, the moment which contains all possibilities for that moment, one of which is acted on, adding to the line of time or the fourth dimension, and all of which are realized in the sixth dimension. This fifth dimension then would correspond to quantum physics' "superposition" in which, prior to measurement, a quantum system can be in any possible state or, rather, in all possible states simultaneously. This may be what is referred to as "Hilbert space" in quantum physics. It is also well represented by the idea of "virtual photons", photons that are there, anywhere, when needed but otherwise unseen.

 

Finally, the sixth dimension of space-time, or the third dimension of time. The sixth dimension includes all possible expansions of the fifth dimension in space-time. Using the terminology of the three dimensions of time, the plane (second dimension), moved at right angles to itself creates a three-dimensional figure, but a figure in three dimensional time. It is actually a six-dimensional figure in space-time.

[Aileanna]

the message above helped me understand

[Edwin]

Research Paper

 

Manifolds: Atomic Embedding

by Edwin G. Schasteen

Jan 17th 2004

 

 

Consider the following concept:

 

There are five 5-d manifolds, five 4-d manifolds, five 3-d manifolds, five 2-d manifolds, five 1-d manifolds, and 5 singular points. The five singularities, are embedded in the five basis 1-d manifolds. The five 1-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 2-d manifolds. The five 2-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 3-d manifolds. The five 3-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 4-d manifolds, The five 4-d manifolds, are sub-manifolds embedded in the five 5-d manifolds. Now, the correspondence between all five 3-manifolds is one-to-one, and onto. All the manifolds 1-d through 5-d are smooth, and therefore differentiable. The correspondence between all the-manifolds is one-to-one, and onto. All n-manifolds are ordered in a series with the other n-manifolds, and there is a one-to-one relation and onto between each of the five singularities. More specifically, the singularities and manifolds' relationships are as follows:

 

The first of the five singularities, corresponds to one, and only one, singularity to it's right. The second singularity corresponds to both the first singularity to it's left, and the third singularity to it's right....the fifth singularity corresponds to one, and only one, singularity to it's left. The same goes for all the other higher n-spheres. Now, the quantifiable relationship between the first n-manifold, and the manifold to it's right, is such that it is entirely additively displaced into the content of the second n-manifold so that the content of the second n-manifold increases to (1st n-manifold+2nd n-manifold), while the first n-manifold goes to zero, such that, after the displacement, there are only four n-dimensional manifolds remaining. The second relation, is that when an n-manifold is displaced into the n-manifold to it's right or left, all other higher dimensional, and lower dimensional manifolds are displaced, correspondingly, to the next manifold over as well. Thus the singularities and manifolds can be represented by a 6X5 matrix, where the columns represent the dimensions 0,1,2,3, etc, and the rows represent the series relationship between the singularities and n-dimensional manifolds.

 

 

 

| 1st 0-d 2nd 0-d 3rd 0-d 4rth 0-d 5th 0-d |

| 1st 1-d 2nd 1-d 3rd 1-d 4rth 1-d 5th 1-d |

| 1st 2-d 2nd 2-d 3rd 2-d 4rth 2-d 5th 2-d | =D

| 1st 3-d 2nd 3-d 3rd 3-d 4rth 3-d 5th 3-d |

| 1st 4-d 2nd 4-d 3rd 4-d 4rth 4-d 5th 4-d |

| 1st 5-d 2nd 5-d 3rd 5-d 4rth 5-d 5th 5-d |

 

 

All columns can be added linearly left to right to make a single row. However, none of the rows can be simply added together, because all manifolds in a given column do not have the same dimensionality. All rows can be put together, but under a special operation that lifts the higher dimensional manifolds into the lower dimensional manifolds. In fact, as we shall see later in this paper, such a lift may veritably describe gravity in four space.

 

Here is an example of such a lift:

 

Consider a solid 3 centimeters x 3 centimeters two-dimensional square embedded into a 2-dimensional Cartesian coordinate system [x, y]. The perimeter of the 2-dimensional square is 9 centimeters.

 

Now suppose you subdivide the square into 9 smaller 1 centimeter squares, and label them as follows:

 

1cm square 1 1cm square 2 1cm square 3

 

 

 

1cm square 4 1cm square 5 1cm square 6

 

 

 

1cm square 7 1cm square 8 1cm square 9

 

 

 

 

 

This square is an example of a 1-dimensional sub-manifold embedded into a 2-dimensional manifold, where the square is the 2-dimensional manifold, and the perimeter of the square is the 1-dimensional manifold that is embedded in the 2-dimensional manifold (square).

 

The surface area of the 2-dimensional manifold is 9 centimeters squared 9cm^2. T

[Tim_Lou]

extra dimension would be like a tv screen. we are living in the tv screen, we can move up, down, right, left but can never get out of the screen. the would outside the tv screen would be the extra dimension.

[hyphite]

Originally posted by: hyphite

ive been thinking and i have my own idea of the 5th dimension.

 

 

 

if X is a lenght equal to 5, then a 1 dimensional line length X has an length of 5. in 2 dimensions it would be a square with all sides being lenght X. the area would be X^2. then in 3 dimensions, a cube with all sides being X would have an area of 125 or X^3. then, where this goes off a bit, would be in the 4th dimension, 5 different cubes, all with a length of 125 adding to a total area of 625 or X^4. each different cube would be a different frame of time. by frame i mean an event happening in time.

 

for an example of this i would use and array [x,y,z,t] where t is time. while t is 1 for say the first frame of time, the x, y, and z could have any value for thier position in space. [2,5,7,1] could be the position in the first frame while it could move in space to . 4, 7, 9 in frame 2 being [4,7,9,2].

 

one of the first things i got from this was the fact that because the amount of frames of time was 5 in my example, and the length of X was also 5, that the amount of time depends on the amount of space in the universe. since there is likely an infinite amount of space, then thre would be an infinite amount of tme.

 

on the subject of the 5th dimension, X^5 would have an area of 3125, or 625, 5 times. so if X^4 is 5 different frames of time, then X^5 is 5 different sets of five frames meaning alternate possibilities for time (alternate universes).

 

[x,y,z,t,u], could have the same values as before for x,y,z,and t. [2,5,7,1, and 1 for the first universe] and [4,7,9,2,1] for the next frame of time in universe 1. the first frame in time for universe 2 could have a different coordinate in space than it did in the first universe such as in: [4,3,5,1,2].

 

i guess it could extend in this pattern for the rest of the dimensions as in the 6th being sets of multiple universes

 

noone said anything at all about this idea! please! give me a reason why these might not work or why it does! or at least comment on it

[dero]

the fifth dimension is pure energy to travel through the dimensions you only have to become energy then travel across energy's dimension instead of having to traverse all of them. this is pretty convincing because it is extremely logical

 

 

any questions contact me, im not on often so it may take a while to recieve a response

[dero]

hey im new but i have experienced the 4th dimension as a spacial dimension so im pretty conviced

if any body knows anything about bilocation and the likes contact me

[greenseed]

THe wormhole theory is a good idea, but doesn't quite fit in the M-theory of dimentional planery exsistance. The universe is infinate, neverending and ultimatly expanding and collapsing. Look at the known proven dimensions that are fathamable to the human brain. Line, square, cube. Theory's of numero quatro- time, and hypercube. That is as far as WE go. It is not a question of exsistance, because we have a universe. It exsists. One dimension cannont exist without the presense of the all dimensions. Look, You wake up in the morning, walk outside at look up at the sun. The light that you see occupies an area otherwise void. The light energy it creates is infinate, measurable, random, and uncontrollable. Dimensions that we see would not be without it(at least not is a visual prespective). The space wich all light consumes is the fourth dimension. This can be understood as time, as we have night and day, a simple way to measure the light we see. Put the building blocks together, and you will notice that everthing around you has a shape, and is in a constant state of decay. However, the material itself is a form of energy, and that energy does not just dissapate as isotopes disentegrate. The energy is binded and drawn to a relative pole, then ultilized for another purpose. We can see this in the patterns of life and evolution. The planear exsistance of energy is the fifth dimension. This has been a greenseed production. 420

[ooshna]

Hello I am new and I was wondering about something. Since we are 3D beings meaning we can move in the first three dimentions. Could there possible be 4D beings that can move through all 4 dimensions? Like being able to basicly time travel by moving through the 4th dimension like we move through the 3d? And since we are directly effected by the 4th dimension and aware of it could that mean that a 4th dimensional being be directly effected by the 5th dimention and more aware than we can ever be?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: ooshna

Hello I am new and I was wondering about something. Since we are 3D beings meaning we can move in the first three dimentions. Could there possible be 4D beings that can move through all 4 dimensions?

 

It would seem that you do not understand General Relativity. We ARE 4D beings. WE exist in and move thru all four dimensions. We have no choice. Our physical space is a time/space continuum. Time can not be seperated from the 3 locational axis.

 

Like being able to basicly time travel by moving through the 4th dimension like we move through the 3d?

 

You say we "move through the 3d". To "move" requires TIME. Thus by the very act of "mov(ing) through the 3d" we "mov(e) through the 4th dimension".

 

And since we are directly effected by the 4th dimension and aware of it could that mean that a 4th dimensional being be directly effected by the 5th dimention and more aware than we can ever be?

 

Our current understanding of additional dimensions, such as a 5thD, is based on Super String Theory. As such the extra dimensions are extremely small and circular. sub-atomic size. NOT something we could "move through".

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: greenseedThis has been a greenseed production. 420

 

It's 420 Dude! This explains you message.

[Freethinker]

5th dimension was a singing group?

[DocRabbit]

Perhaps I may get flamed for stating this theory, hopefully not. We all know 3d exists, it is around us all the time. Time, we know this to be the 4th dimension. A perfectly still object can be measured in time. We perceived it 5 minutes ago and now we perceive it this instant, yet something is different, time. I am stating the obvious here just to lead up to the 5th. Perhaps the 5th dimension is closer than we think and farther than we can imagine.

 

Take the individual atom, its contents, protons, neutrons, electron cloud. Everything consists of these basic structures, yet there is what we call 'empty space' in each and every one of them. Scientists simply accept 'empty space' as an area void of any particles, what I will call the 'nothingness'. Perhaps, if you think like me, and I must admit I may be totally and absolutely wrong, but the idea on nothingness seems absolutely improbable, yet there it is, or is it?

 

Take for example, that maybe this nothingness, is really somethingness, only at another point along the 5th dimensional 'axis'. We can state that yours,mine, and everyone in what we know as the universe's position along this axis to be say, point d=1. At another point, say point d=2, at that point along the 5th dimension, what in our world, d=1, is nothingness, there is a particle, and where there is nothingness at point d=2, in our world is particle. Most people I guess would call this alternate universe theory, and I was wondering if anyone knows of any other theories based on this idea or am I just out on the preverbial limb on this.

 

This was just an idea I came up with when working on 5 dimensional arrays one day.

[erKa]

If we are talking abut sensible dimensions (f.e. spins of quarks are physically recognized but not sensible dimensions in our common space) the 5 th dimension is the rest-mass of large bodies astronomically moving in the outer space. Length=1, width=2, height=3, time=4, mass=5. They are all linked one to each other by mean of Einstein's "shrinked theory of relativity".These are 5 sensible dimensions of Astronomical Continuum. But counting also the allowed dimensions of the small space inside the atom, actually there are 11 known dimensions.