Defending Democracy

[nutronjon]

One of the most important books ever written is Tocqueville's Democracy in America. He was a French aristocrat, and some of his family was killed during the French Revolution. As a young man, he studied the young democracy of the United States and he wrote of it in glowing terms. Years later, when thought everything through, he concluded his book with an ominous warning of the worst tyranny in history that democracies could become.

 

If we are ignorant of such matters, we can not defend our democracy with liberty, but become like the Borg, with humans programmed to serve the Borg, and having no human lives of their own. This warning is no longer for the future. It has our present. Democracy in America can be read on-line:

 

Democracy in America: TOC

[Freddy]

One of the most important books ever written is Tocqueville's Democracy in America. He was a French aristocrat, and some of his family was killed during the French Revolution. As a young man, he studied the young democracy of the United States and he wrote of it in glowing terms. Years later, when thought everything through, he concluded his book with an ominous warning of the worst tyranny in history that democracies could become.

 

If we are ignorant of such matters, we can not defend our democracy with liberty, but become like the Borg, with humans programmed to serve the Borg, and having no human lives of their own. This warning is no longer for the future. It has our present. Democracy in America can be read on-line:

Democracy in America you say. A candidate who wins the 11 top electoral states receives 271 electoral votes to win. The rest of the 39 states votes will not count. It is time to elect our president with a direct vote of the people! Too bad the people do not vote!

[HydrogenBond]

Originally, the founding fathers of the US Constitution had the Senators elected or rather appointed by the state assembles. The Senators were suppose to be the voice of the state government, in Washington. The Representatives were elected by the people to be the voice of the people. The electoral college was sort a blend of the two. What they had in mind was a republic and not a democracy, since the people are not informed enough but tend to be easily manipulated by clever rhetoric.

 

The founding father must have been aware of this, and limited the democracy to the house of representatives. The Senate was then changed and also became driven by the entertainment factor of politics.

 

If you think of it logically, the state assemblies, are themselves politicians and know the nature of the manipulation, so they would choose senators who could best leverage the most for their state. The popular senate vote goes to personality and mud slinging. The senate that has resulted has turned into something more separated from the states.

 

The loss of the electoral college would further erode the power of the states. It looks like more democracy on the surface, but a centralized government will reduce the power of the people. They are not beholden to the voter. They can promise anything and not deliver, but the electoral college has a little more leverage making sure the people's voice is heard.

 

A democracy sounds good, but the herd doesn't think. It waits for someone to tell them what they want to hear so they can get elected. Then they forget the herd. If you look at the promises of the current Democratic majorities, the herd swallowed this hock line and sinker. Once in power, it turned out to be a lot of bull. If the state assemblies had voted for senators, these people know bull, since this is how they got where they got. They would have picked leaders so they could leverage the power. Up front the democracy thinks it got what it wanted, but got nothing. The other way, they appeared to be left out, but in the end they get what they need.

[Mike C]

To All

 

The key to having our Democracy work as the Constitution mandates is to get the 'dollars' out of the political arena.

You can also get the religious faction out of the political arena.

 

There is nothing in our CN that says the politicians should represent the wealthy (Latin republic?) or the religious bigots that intimdate the people in any way.

 

Put 'emphasis' on the CN mandate of 'Separation of Church and State'.

We do not need another Bush (faith doctrine?) in the White House.

His service to our country is the most disastrous in history with the Florida hurricanes, the Gulf hurricane, the floods throughout the US and the forest fires in the west. And, of course, the 9/11 fiasco that got us involved in the Middle East wars. The 'new world order' was the target here.

 

Besides keeping religion out of the public arena, we have to shut out the dollar faction that buys our politicians and also 'brain washed' them to serve themselves instead of the citizens.

The 'Public Financing of our Elections' would do the job of promoting 'political' reform. That is what is needed to restore our government to do as it is supposed to do.

 

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Truth is hidden by paradox and confusion.

 

Does this work for you? The form of government in the US is a republic, however, the culture that was transmitted through education was democratic.

 

Notice I put that in past tense "was". For the longest time literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics, and this literacy is essential to understanding democracy. In 1958, the National Defense Education Act, put an end to teaching the classics, in favor of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. This probably spells the end of the US democracy, because no one knows the culture, so the culture for democracy with liberty, can not be manifested. Four decades later, after immitating Germany's education for technology for military and industrial purpose, the people voted a leader who believed the New World Order was a good thing. You know, the New World Order that Hitler once lead, and like Germany, the US has engaged in war for economic purpose, and this time is clearly the invader who made the first strike. The people are also welcoming a police state, and killing their liberty.

 

You express an understanding of democracy being tied into what the US is about, but seem to think it is purely a political thing, rather than understanding it is a culture thing, and that without education for that culture, the US democracy is as perverted as the Republic of Germany was perverted when the Prussians took control of Germany, and turned it into a very strong Military and Industrial Complex. Eisenhower, the president who asked congress to pass the National Defense Education Act, warned us of the dangers of this Military/Industrial Complex. Unfortunately, we took our democracy for granted, and lacked understanding of what made the US different from its enemy, and the importance of education to defending our liberty.

[nutronjon]

To All

 

The key to having our Democracy work as the Constitution mandates is to get the 'dollars' out of the political arena.

You can also get the religious faction out of the political arena.

 

There is nothing in our CN that says the politicians should represent the wealthy (Latin republic?) or the religious bigots that intimdate the people in any way.

 

Put 'emphasis' on the CN mandate of 'Separation of Church and State'.

We do not need another Bush (faith doctrine?) in the White House.

His service to our country is the most disastrous in history with the Florida hurricanes, the Gulf hurricane, the floods throughout the US and the forest fires in the west. And, of course, the 9/11 fiasco that got us involved in the Middle East wars. The 'new world order' was the target here.

 

Besides keeping religion out of the public arena, we have to shut out the dollar faction that buys our politicians and also 'brain washed' them to serve themselves instead of the citizens.

The 'Public Financing of our Elections' would do the job of promoting 'political' reform. That is what is needed to restore our government to do as it is supposed to do.

 

Mike C

 

I love you. Where is the icon that sends kisses?

 

The battle cry of the first world war was, "Democracy and autocracy can not co-exist." Problem is, from the beginning of the industrial age, our industry was modeled after England's autocracy. The bible supports autocracy, and especially in the US people are literate in the bible, and not so literate in classics. Education Americanized the classics for public school text, for the purpose of transmitting democratic principles, and modernizing the information of the classics. The point is, autocracy and democracy always co-existed in the US. Are you with me so far? When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we unleashed the powers of autocracy. This may be the final death blow to our democracy.

 

Autocratic industry lead to the Great Depression. That is, there was a collapse of all industrial economies, that was so severe, people were starving to death, and many families lost everything. In desparation to save the people, Roosevelt and Hoover, worked together to trump autocratic industry with a more powerful autocratic government. At the time, many people thought fascism was the answer to economic trouble. Fascism is private ownership of property and government control of industry. Please, drop your German memory of fascism, and keep in mind, Fascism began in Itally, and did not commit the horrors of Germany. Do not let the horrors of Germany confuse you here. Fascism is government control of privately owned industry, okay? The Clinton administration wanted to take fascism a step further, as Itally did, by replacing unions with one national bureaucracy managing workers. Do I have your attention?

 

People warned about the dangers of what Roosevelt and Hoover were doing, and by the time we get to Clinton, people think fascism is the horrors committed by Germans, and don't understand it as government control of industry and workers. The fact is, the US now has a fascist economic order. With the huge advancement of government and industry relationships, resulting from the second world war, and the Eisenhower administration, embedding the Military/Industrial Complex into our society, the fascist economic order is well developed. The Republicans have long catered to industry to be the wealthiest political pary, and a while back, the Democratic party followed suit, having Industrial Leaders approve of their candidates, before you and I have any say in who will run for office. Do you know of the Democratic political candidate Kucinch? He was not approved by industry.

 

So yes, you are right. 'Public Financing of our Elections' is essential to restoring our democracy.

[Mike C]

I love you. Where is the icon that sends kisses?

 

The battle cry of the first world war was, "Democracy and autocracy can not co-exist." Problem is, from the beginning of the industrial age, our industry was modeled after England's autocracy. The bible supports autocracy, and especially in the US people are literate in the bible, and not so literate in classics. Education Americanized the classics for public school text, for the purpose of transmitting democratic principles, and modernizing the information of the classics. The point is, autocracy and democracy always co-existed in the US. Are you with me so far? When we passed the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we unleashed the powers of autocracy. This may be the final death blow to our democracy.

 

Autocratic industry lead to the Great Depression. That is, there was a collapse of all industrial economies, that was so severe, people were starving to death, and many families lost everything. In desparation to save the people, Roosevelt and Hoover, worked together to trump autocratic industry with a more powerful autocratic government. At the time, many people thought fascism was the answer to economic trouble. Fascism is private ownership of property and government control of industry. Please, drop your German memory of fascism, and keep in mind, Fascism began in Itally, and did not commit the horrors of Germany. Do not let the horrors of Germany confuse you here. Fascism is government control of privately owned industry, okay? The Clinton administration wanted to take fascism a step further, as Itally did, by replacing unions with one national bureaucracy managing workers. Do I have your attention?

 

People warned about the dangers of what Roosevelt and Hoover were doing, and by the time we get to Clinton, people think fascism is the horrors committed by Germans, and don't understand it as government control of industry and workers. The fact is, the US now has a fascist economic order. With the huge advancement of government and industry relationships, resulting from the second world war, and the Eisenhower administration, embedding the Military/Industrial Complex into our society, the fascist economic order is well developed. The Republicans have long catered to industry to be the wealthiest political pary, and a while back, the Democratic party followed suit, having Industrial Leaders approve of their candidates, before you and I have any say in who will run for office. Do you know of the Democratic political candidate Kucinch? He was not approved by industry.

 

So yes, you are right. 'Public Financing of our Elections' is essential to restoring our democracy.

 

Thank you for your support.

I wrote an article on socialism entitled My Brand of Socialism that could be the future of this counties (US) politics if we can eliminate the corruptive influence of the wealthy dollars that control our government.

 

The only solution now is the above PFoOE.

When you look to the bibles NT, both John the Baptist and Christ had shortened lives. John died in prison and Christ was crucified.

They both opposed the mentality of chauvinism that the establishment Jews promoted and exhibited in the OT.

 

So this is a problem that our country faces. The influece of these wealthy dollars.

 

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Thank you for your support.

I wrote an article on socialism entitled My Brand of Socialism that could be the future of this counties (US) politics if we can eliminate the corruptive influence of the wealthy dollars that control our government.

 

The only solution now is the above PFoOE.

When you look to the bibles NT, both John the Baptist and Christ had shortened lives. John died in prison and Christ was crucified.

They both opposed the mentality of chauvinism that the establishment Jews promoted and exhibited in the OT.

 

So this is a problem that our country faces. The influece of these wealthy dollars.

 

Mike C

 

 

How about this? educate everyone to understand democracy. There are some things we just do not do, because social pressure prevents us from doing them, such as picking our noses in front of everyone. Liberty is maintained, not through a police force, but social pressure to stay within boundries. Culture is much effective in preventing crime than laws, just look at Enron and banking and all the industrial and political corruption we have today. No one today knows, we defend our libery by making good judgements, not by invading others with a very expensive military force.

 

Check out Deming because he developed the democratic model for industry, and if our industry followed the democratic order, we would all have greater opportunity, and greater personal power. Our democracy would be much stronger than it is today. At the city level, if cities reserved their business space and their industrial zones for those who us the democratic model, and also mandated schools to teach democratic principles, we would have a strong democracy.

[Mike C]

How about this? educate everyone to understand democracy. There are some things we just do not do, because social pressure prevents us from doing them, such as picking our noses in front of everyone. Liberty is maintained, not through a police force, but social pressure to stay within boundries. Culture is much effective in preventing crime than laws, just look at Enron and banking and all the industrial and political corruption we have today. No one today knows, we defend our libery by making good judgements, not by invading others with a very expensive military force.

 

Check out Deming because he developed the democratic model for industry, and if our industry followed the democratic order, we would all have greater opportunity, and greater personal power. Our democracy would be much stronger than it is today. At the city level, if cities reserved their business space and their industrial zones for those who us the democratic model, and also mandated schools to teach democratic principles, we would have a strong democracy.

 

Education, in itself, would not be the solution to the 'job' problem.

Most jobs do not require the advanced education except the three basics of reading, writing and arithmatic.

What we need is to guarantee jobs for all

This gives us all security for survival.

It wouls also reduce the crime problem and other such problems resulting from unemployment.

 

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Education, in itself, would not be the solution to the 'job' problem.

Most jobs do not require the advanced education except the three basics of reading, writing and arithmatic.

What we need is to guarantee jobs for all

This gives us all security for survival.

It wouls also reduce the crime problem and other such problems resulting from unemployment.

 

Mike C

 

Before the child labor laws, that is exactly what industry said. These people believed the best way to keep social order was to keep working. Is was normal for people, including children to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don't think this would give people desirable lives. I am glad we established child labor laws, designed to enable children to go to school. We settled for schooling children except in the summer when they were needed for farm work. I don't think any other country holds children out of school so they can work the farms.

 

I remember when we thought women should be full time homemakers. They saved our nation a bunch of money as they cared for the young, old, and sick, without pay. At this time we thought the strength of our nation, and our liberty, depended on strong families. There is a lot to be said about this. Do you want to discuss what strong families have to do with a strong country and liberty? When you say everyone should be working, do you include being a homemaker as working?

[nutronjon]

Originally, the founding fathers of the US Constitution had the Senators elected or rather appointed by the state assembles. The Senators were suppose to be the voice of the state government, in Washington. The Representatives were elected by the people to be the voice of the people. The electoral college was sort a blend of the two. What they had in mind was a republic and not a democracy, since the people are not informed enough but tend to be easily manipulated by clever rhetoric.

 

The founding father must have been aware of this, and limited the democracy to the house of representatives. The Senate was then changed and also became driven by the entertainment factor of politics.

 

If you think of it logically, the state assemblies, are themselves politicians and know the nature of the manipulation, so they would choose senators who could best leverage the most for their state. The popular senate vote goes to personality and mud slinging. The senate that has resulted has turned into something more separated from the states.

 

The loss of the electoral college would further erode the power of the states. It looks like more democracy on the surface, but a centralized government will reduce the power of the people. They are not beholden to the voter. They can promise anything and not deliver, but the electoral college has a little more leverage making sure the people's voice is heard.

 

A democracy sounds good, but the herd doesn't think. It waits for someone to tell them what they want to hear so they can get elected. Then they forget the herd. If you look at the promises of the current Democratic majorities, the herd swallowed this hock line and sinker. Once in power, it turned out to be a lot of bull. If the state assemblies had voted for senators, these people know bull, since this is how they got where they got. They would have picked leaders so they could leverage the power. Up front the democracy thinks it got what it wanted, but got nothing. The other way, they appeared to be left out, but in the end they get what they need.

 

So many times, whenI go back and read over the post, I see posters have said so much more than I got the first time. I also pick up new information that changes my understanding of things. Bill Moyers interviewed the author of "Our Undemocratic Constitution". If it had not been for Jefferson our Republic would be much more autocratic than it is. The original Constitution had undemocratic parts and not all of them have been changed.

 

Tocqueville warned democracy could become the worst tyranny in history in 1835. His observations and reasoning were excellent. When the US adopted the German models of bueaucracy and education, it did in fact become what the people of the US defended democracy against. This New World Order, is the same evil as Hilter's New World Order. This is the worst evil in human history, so prehaps we should deal with the reality that democracy can give people individual liberty and power, or it can establish bureaucracy over them, than is so impersonal, it crushes individual liberty and power. How might we get this discuss going?

 

How do we understand Jefferson's concern for public education?

"I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler, 1810. ME 12:393

 

Why does the Statue of Liberty hold a book and torch?

[InfiniteNow]

Why does the Statue of Liberty hold a book and torch?

 

That "book" is a tablet which reads: JULY IV MDCCLXXVI, but I appreciate your point about the "soft" fascist country the US appears to be trending toward.

 

Ron Paul refers to the same thing as corporatism, and regardless who says it, it is a problem.

 

 

 

"Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither freedom nor justice can be permanently maintained."

~ James Garfield

[nutronjon]

That "book" is a tablet which reads: JULY IV MDCCLXXVI, but I appreciate your point about the "soft" fascist country the US appears to be trending toward.

 

Ron Paul refers to the same thing as corporatism, and regardless who says it, it is a problem.

 

 

 

"Next in importance to freedom and justice is popular education, without which neither freedom nor justice can be permanently maintained."

~ James Garfield

 

Thank you. I didn't know JULY IV MDCCLXXVI was encraved on the tablet. I think it is important we understand democracy is built on the concept of natural laws, and peace, when we govern ourselves by natural law. Unlike the Ten Commendments, some like to people to think a God encraved in stone, the concept of democracy is all the writing is done by humans, not a God, and our understanding of natural law, is only as good as our reasoning. Our laws are subject to change as our reasoning changes. We are free to write in the book laws our best reasoning.

 

Any law not based on natural law, is not truly a law. This is related to science. We would not an explanation for the law of gravity, without a phenomenia to explain. Tyrants can make laws to rule over people, but if these laws are not based on natural laws, they are not really laws. And so the American Revolution was justified. The revolution begins with a question of authority. "To whom does God his authority". The king and hierarchy of the church, or everyone? Democracy assumes God gives his authority to everyone, and together the people can come to a consensus on the best reasoning. This consciousness began in Ancient Athens.

 

I really like the quote you gave us. That is equal to Jefferson's concern about education. Yes, yes, our liberty depends on our education. We need to be educated to learn more of the laws of nature, so can better govern ourselves with them.

[Freddy]

So many times, whenI go back and read over the post, I see posters have said so much more than I got the first time. I also pick up new information that changes my understanding of things. Bill Moyers interviewed the author of "Our Undemocratic Constitution". If it had not been for Jefferson our Republic would be much more autocratic than it is. The original Constitution had undemocratic parts and not all of them have been changed.

Who is the author of "Our Undemocratic Constitution"? Levinson, and he also is in favor of eliminating the Electoral College. How did Jefferson shape the republic? The Declaration of Independence is a meaningless document without any force of law. Jefferson was in Paris during the writing, debating, and ratification of the Constitution. He did send Madison many books on government. As Secretary of State he had little or no influence during Washington's two terms, hence he resigned. As Adam's vice-president he had little say being of the opposite party. As President he purchased Louisiana then almost singlehandedly brought the US into a depression with his Embargo Act. Perhaps, you mean when he let the Sedition Act end and did not attempt to renew it? Or is the fact that he wanted to expand the vote to those who did not own property? At least Washington freed his slaves upon his death, which is something Jefferson promised but failed to do.

[Mike C]

Before the child labor laws, that is exactly what industry said. These people believed the best way to keep social order was to keep working. Is was normal for people, including children to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don't think this would give people desirable lives. I am glad we established child labor laws, designed to enable children to go to school. We settled for schooling children except in the summer when they were needed for farm work. I don't think any other country holds children out of school so they can work the farms.

 

I remember when we thought women should be full time homemakers. They saved our nation a bunch of money as they cared for the young, old, and sick, without pay. At this time we thought the strength of our nation, and our liberty, depended on strong families. There is a lot to be said about this. Do you want to discuss what strong families have to do with a strong country and liberty? When you say everyone should be working, do you include being a homemaker as working?

 

When I speak of our US Constitution, I mean in todays era that includes all the Amendments.

It promotes eqaulity for all citizens. That means woman and blacks and also protects the children from abuse.

 

The CN is being ignored by our politicians because of the influence dollars and the religions. These have to be barred from the political arena and the politicians running for office should be reminded of this.

It iis about time they were reminded that they are supposed to be representing the citizens, not their religions or the wealthy friends.

 

Mike C

[nutronjon]

Freddy and Mike, you each seem to stand on opposite sides of the Democratic-Republican verses Federalist debate? But I am not sure if this is so, or if matters are just confused by forgotten history?

 

Freddy, since you disagree about Jefferson not making a very important contribution to our democracy, I assume you are a Federalist. This would be the undemocratic, strong government side of the arguement, concentrating power in the Presidency.

 

Mike, since you favor a strong democracy, putting more power in the legislature. I assume you are a Democratic-Republican. This side puts the least power in the hands of government and gives the most power to the people.

 

Do you both agree with this assumption? Bush has taken the Federalist position don't you think? The orginal division is still wtih us.

[Mike C]

Freddy and Mike, you each seem to stand on opposite sides of the Democratic-Republican verses Federalist debate? But I am not sure if this is so, or if matters are just confused by forgotten history?

 

Freddy, since you disagree about Jefferson not making a very important contribution to our democracy, I assume you are a Federalist. This would be the undemocratic, strong government side of the arguement, concentrating power in the Presidency.

 

Mike, since you favor a strong democracy, putting more power in the legislature. I assume you are a Democratic-Republican. This side puts the least power in the hands of government and gives the most power to the people.

 

Do you both agree with this assumption? Bush has taken the Federalist position don't you think? The orginal division is still wtih us.

 

Partly, if you leave the republican part out of my description.

 

My latest Merriam/Webster dictionary (1998) says that:

 

The word Democracy is derived from the Greek root 'people power'.

 

The word Republic is derived from the Latin root 'WEALTH + public'.

Notice that the word wealth is capitalized.

 

These definitions fit the current US parties exactly.

The republican party serves the religions (Latin church) and the wealthy

corporations.

 

The democrats are representing the people but are influeced by the corporate dollars as the republicans do.

 

The republicans support this corruption. The democrats do not. This was proven when a bill was promoted (McCain/Feingold Bill) that introduced some reforn in our political system by banning the 'soft money' that did not have to be accounted(?) for as other monies had to be.

 

The democrats supported this bill while the republicans opposed it.

However, it finally was passed after 9/11 happened and all the crooked bookkeeping was exposed. Bush had no choice but to sign it, but he did it without any fanfare or publicity.

 

Mike C