Evolution

[Pyrotex]

...when 'carbon' dating would be more accurate?

Actually, carbon dating is very accurate only back for a few thousand years. It is useful, but not very accurate over tens of thousands of years. It is pretty much useless for ages dating more than 100,000 years.

[Mike C]

Actually, carbon dating is very accurate only back for a few thousand years. It is useful, but not very accurate over tens of thousands of years. It is pretty much useless for ages dating more than 100,000 years.

 

Thanks.

However, I think it has much more credibility than the bible.

 

Nature is our GREATEST teacher and all our advancements in science, technology and invention are copies of Nature.

 

Mike C

[Pyrotex]

Thanks.

However, I think it has much more credibility than the bible.

...

Mike, try to follow me here. It's not hard.

 

Yes, carbon dating is far more credible than the Bible.

But carbon dating only "works" over a short period of geological time.

Beyond 100,000 years ago, carbon dating just doesn't work at all.

It doesn't yield ANY dates.

[Eclogite]

However, I think it has much more credibility than the bible.

On the other hand I wouldn't go to a text book on nuclear fission to get ethical guidance.:evil:

[Mike C]

Mike, try to follow me here. It's not hard.

 

Yes, carbon dating is far more credible than the Bible.

But carbon dating only "works" over a short period of geological time.

Beyond 100,000 years ago, carbon dating just doesn't work at all.

It doesn't yield ANY dates.

 

I do not dispute what you say but my primary objective is that the bible teaches evil more than anything else.

 

Mike C

[Mike C]

On the other hand I wouldn't go to a text book on nuclear fission to get ethical guidance.:hihi:

 

Ha ha. I agree.

 

But the bible is read and studied by millions of people and in my consideration, is the precurser for all the violence in the western hemisphere.

 

Who reads 'nuclear physics'? Only the scientists do that.

And there is no need for that.

 

Mike C

[Pyrotex]

Ha ha. I agree.

But the bible is read and studied by millions of people and in my consideration, is the precurser for all the violence in the western hemisphere....

Then you must explain what is the precursor for all violence in the eastern hemisphere, since they came by the Bible only late in their game.

 

Actually, if you want to be rational -- and I most certainly DO -- the Bible came way too late to be a "precursor" (whatever you mean by that) to western hemisphere violence. The Greeks and Persians practiced wholesale violence on themselves and each other at least as far back as 1500 BCE (the Seige of Troy) which is the first <recorded> historical event we know about. Then, there were all the wars between the Greeks and Egyptians, the Egyptians and the Medeans (& Babylonians... & Persians). Way before the "Bible" ever saw print.

 

In fact, the Bible was not printed in common language and available to the masses until after Guttenburg and Luther, in about 1600 CE or thereabouts. Call it 400 years ago.

 

As much as I would like to blame modern violence on the Bible, the facts just do not support that. Violence has been around a LOT longer in both hemispheres.

[Freddy]

1500 BCE (the Seige of Troy) which is the first <recorded> historical event we know about.

Sorry, but the Trojan War is not from recorded history. In fact, many claim it to be a myth. The Iliad, an epic poem, was written between three to four centuries after the supposed events.

[CraigD]

But the bible is read and studied by millions of people and in my consideration, is the precurser for all the violence in the western hemisphere.

1500 BCE (the Seige of Troy) which is the first <recorded> historical event we know about.

Sorry, but the Trojan War is not from recorded history. In fact, many claim it to be a myth. The Iliad, an epic poem, was written between three to four centuries after the supposed events.

Freddy’s correct, I think, in pointing out the shortcomings of ancient “histories”, which were not as sharply distinguished from ancient fiction as recent history is from fiction. Although an argument can be made that even very recent history has a “creative” – ie: fabricated – element to it, most histories of the past few centuries at least agree on the dates of major violent events, if not agreeing on details such as casualty counts to within a factor of two.

 

I think Pyro’s point, that organized violence (by whatever name it’s called) predates the oldest documents (ca. 850 BCE) to have been eventually collected into the Bible, is also correct. Though it may have little resembled the tale told in the Iliad, war almost certainly occurred ca. 1500 BCE. In researching this post, I found reference to Cemetery 117 an archeological discovery reliably dated at 11,750 [math]\pm[/math]600 BCE. It appears that little time elapses between humans’ discovered of an improved means of puncturing skin and its use in killing large groups of their fellow human beings.

[Pyrotex]

Sorry, but the Trojan War is not from recorded history. In fact, many claim it to be a myth. The Iliad, an epic poem, was written between three to four centuries after the supposed events.

The Trojan War was an historical fact. Needless to say, for an event that far back in time (more correctly around 1200 to 1300 BCE), there is a lot of uncertainty. More archeological facts have been unearthed since the Wiki article was written.

 

The "story" line from the Illiad may be 90% myth, but the Trojan War happened, it was a real historical event, and indeed, is the oldest historical event we have record of.

 

The percentage of fact vs. myth in The Illiad does not, however, take away from my point. Which was: we have sufficient historical and archeological evidence to know that mass violence and slaughter was common among humans long before the advent of the Bible.

 

In fact, it would be very difficult to defend the premise that the Bible (as a book) had ANY large, measurable effect on history until it was mass-printed in common languages after the invention of Guttenburg's printing press.

[CraigD]

(Bolding mine)

The "story" line from the Illiad may be 90% myth, but the Trojan War happened, it was a real historical event, and indeed, is the oldest historical event we have record of.

I don’t think histories of events occurring ca. 1500 BCE can be considered the “oldest recorded”. For example, clay tablets describing events ca. 2270 BCE, such as this one, exist in modern museum collections. Despite their proto-written nature, resembling series of illustrations more than modern symbolic glyphs, the interpretations of these ancient documents are fairly well established, and describe a fairly complete history long predating those of Homer and other early Greek writers.

[HydrogenBond]

One way to look at the bible, it is an old document. Therefore it was written for an audience that was around a long time ago. As such, it may contain grains of truth, but it was not written with the scientist in mind. It was written for others who had a entirely different way to look at reality.

 

A good analogy is to read some of the old science books from 200 years ago, that were written for that time, and judge all of science by these ideas. These 200 years old books were written for a different audience than today. That audience had a different way to look at reality and their ideas had to stay within the confines of that audience. If someone from 200 years ago suggested the cell phone or internet, that would have been considered quack science, and would never have been published within any valid science journal. Even though this is most based in reality, than everythng else published, it would not click with that old mindset.

 

Another analogy is the helicopter prototype drawn by Galileo. This probably made little sense to most, for hundreds of years, until the invention of the airplane and helicopter. Now there was a collective way to see where this vision was trying to head. Sometimes the old can see something, that takes a future change, before it makes any sense.

 

The bible was written for a different mind set. When those people read these accounts, it fit within the realm of what was known at that time. This is not to say they were stupid just ignorant of what we know. They thought in terms of symbolisms. Hierogliphics use symbols to express ideas. The bible uses word type symbolism. One could have witnessed a major battle and knew the details. Carving this into stone didn't do justice to what they saw. But it may have been the best medium of the day that could reach the most people. One needs to translate these ideas in a way that is appropriate to modern times. The scientist uses these odd symbols and compares these to other records, to solve a complex puzzle.

 

Let me do a few rough examples of translating the ancient bible symbolism mindset into the modern mindset. Here is one quote. God made man in his image. Another common bible quote is, my kingdom is not of this world. If these are logically consistent, one may conclude man made in God's image was not talking about something earthy or superficial. If it is not superfisical, that it has to be something that is not tangible. This sort of describes the human mind and imagination. We still can't pin these down in a scientific way. The human mind is what makes humans different than all the animals. Animals have all the superfisical stuff, but not the human mind. It is the one unique thing that separates humans for the rest of life on earth. It gives us free will, choice, allows us to reason and create, like god.

 

Another symbolic quote is Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. To an ancient mind, dust was about as fine as the naked eye could see matter, subdivided. If one did not have a microscope, dust appears to be finest objective foundation of matter. The bible is describing what would eventually be called chemistry. If one called it chemistry, to the ancient mind, who at best, could see dust as the smallest possible matter, this would have been quack science, and would have never been published. They may wish to see the experiments and dust was the state of the art.

 

Try to explain atoms to a small child so they can get it. They will look at you strange or just try to memorize, verbatum. But understanding will involve showing then dust or a tiny grain of sugar and say atoms are even smaller. Say for the sake of argument, some higher lifeform was around 5000 years ago, there is little precident and little formal education. This is your audience. The audience may have been ignorant of modern ideas, but it was not stupid. They could see these symbols differently.

 

One last sysmbolism. The story of Cain and Abel alludes to humanoids being on the earth with Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel (whomever comes upon me shall kill me). This was describiing the superfiscial humans, that science call human and that the bible treats like animals. They had all the semblances that fossil data can provide, but they had not yet evolved the new and improved human mind needed for advanced civilization. This is consistent with evolution and mutations, with a news elective advantage. The descendants of this new and improvement human mind would go on to dominate the earth. These accounts were closer to those times. They were there and could see the differences that were still evident then. The original slavery may have viewed the humanoids as a domestic animal.

[Freddy]

The Trojan War was an historical fact. Needless to say, for an event that far back in time (more correctly around 1200 to 1300 BCE), there is a lot of uncertainty. More archeological facts have been unearthed since the Wiki article was written.

 

The "story" line from the Illiad may be 90% myth, but the Trojan War happened, it was a real historical event, and indeed, is the oldest historical event we have record of.

Could you provide evidence to back up your assertions about the Trojan War being an historical fact and the oldest recorded historical event?

[HydrogenBond]

When the movie Troy was in the theatres, there was a well documented program on PBS about Helen of Troy. They traveled those areas in the Mediterannan sea and eventually found what appeared to be a dig site. It is hard to determine the truth, but many scholars have worked on this. And these scholars appeared happy with their discoveries.

 

In Genesis, there is a set of passage that tells how the angels lusted after the daughters of man, because many of these were babes. Some of the children they bore produced men of renoun and other odd mutations. The timing goes along with the time frame of Achilles and the Trojian war.

 

If one analyses this symbolically, the angels would suggest genetic changes that were not part of the normal earthy biological slow train. Rather the human brain or maybe deeper parts within the human mind were inducing mutations. Some of the results may have been prototype humans who were very advanced and wierd by modern standards.

 

The idea of the mind, able to manipulate the DNA, can be demonstrated. If one thinks about certain foods, one can make themself hungry. The hunger chemicals can be traced back to specific genes on the DNA. The thought command line causes these genes to become more active, so the needed proteins can be manufactured. If I do this often, so I am always hungry, the DNA might get more permanently alterred. Natural instincts tries to manipulate this DNA cyclically, but we can keep these genes on. This may not be good for health but is humanly possible.

 

To assume the brain can manipulate gamete cells, although hard to prove, is not out of the realm of theoretical possibility. It is only beyond the current theory and our ability to investigate this possiblity. One only has to look at the placebo affect, various psycho-somatic illnesses, and those rare cases of healing that science can not yet explain. The human brain is above the DNA, and can exceed the expected limits of the genetics. The 98lb genetic weakling, from many generations of the same genetics, can go to the gym and eventually look like they came from genes based on 220 lb muscle. Animals can't do that, unless humans use their minds and interceed for them.

 

So if we go back to the symbolic angels and the babe daughters of man, the human brain may have been in a dynamic flux. All of evolution had reached the point where the genetics would be superseded for faster human evolution, mostly for the brain. It was sort of shifting around the top of the transition hill. The result were some extra-orginary mutation prototypes, like Achilles. He was sort of an Enistein, of the human body.

 

The achilles heal, which was Achilles vulnerability, is the pivot tendon for the footm, which contacts the earth. That symbolizes, that although his strength was above natural, he was still part of the natural evolution. It was an unnatural state which would eventually come back to earth. Even if he did not fall in battle, his mutation may have eventually caused him to have problems. He went out with a bang, rather than die of disease. One way to look at it is, the 98lb weakling, through will, can reach 220lb. Eventually his natural genes will take over and return him back. Achilles may have had the turbo brain boost for mucsular activity due to genetics, but natural genetics began pulling him back to natural.

 

I was just working under the assumption of a mind-genetic connection.

[Mike C]

Then you must explain what is the precursor for all violence in the eastern hemisphere, since they came by the Bible only late in their game

 

Are you are talking about China or Genghis Kahn?

I do not know much about eastern history but Chinas followed Stalins atrocities here recently.

 

I am mainly talking about 'genocides', not war casaulties..

The bible teaches genocides as punishment for violations of yahweh's commandments.

These genocides involved tens of thousands on occasion as punishment.

 

The following genocides were: Joe Stalins communism - 20 to 30 million Russians.

Islam that is a copy of Judaism but put into actual practice, their genocides over the past two milleniums were about a few millions(?)

The catholic church purification attrocities added up to a million or more(?)

 

In the eastyern hemisphere in China, Mayo Tse Tung adopted the Stalin communism and promptly added another million or more.

 

Mike C

[REASON]

Are you are talking about China or Genghis Kahn?

I do not know much about eastern history but Chinas followed Stalins atrocities here recently.

 

I am mainly talking about 'genocides', not war casaulties..

The bible teaches genocides as punishment for violations of yahweh's commandments.

These genocides involved tens of thousands on occasion as punishment.

 

The following genocides were: Joe Stalins communism - 20 to 30 million Russians.

Islam that is a copy of Judaism but put into actual practice, their genocides over the past two milleniums were about a few millions(?)

The catholic church purification attrocities added up to a million or more(?)

 

In the eastyern hemisphere in China, Mayo Tse Tung adopted the Stalin communism and promptly added another million or more.

 

Mike C

 

:cheer::):doh::shrug::(

[Pyrotex]

Could you provide evidence to back up your assertions about the Trojan War being an historical fact and the oldest recorded historical event?

[sigh] no, I can't. I withdraw the comment under fire. I believe I heard the Trojan War described in that way on a multi-episode documentary some years ago. But given the evidence mentioned above and the "sharks smelling blood" reaction to my statement, I will gracefully withdraw from the water. :cheer: