Primary school maths is sufficient for most day-to-day activities for most people

[Michaelangelica]

(Moderation note: posts 1-5 of this thread originally appeared in 11254. They were moved because they were off-topic for the Science Projects and Homework forum)

 

You don't need maths.

It is useless unless you want to be a Quantum physicist.

 

Both my kids were good at maths but did not take it into upper high.

 

My first daughter was the first in her school not to do maths for matriculation.

She used to sit outside the math classes singing and reading a book.

I was worried she might be mugged by the math students!(She came close)

 

Totally useless subject once you have primary school math.

[Jay-qu]

You don't need maths.

It is useless unless you want to be a Quantum physicist.

 

Both my kids were good at maths but did not take it into upper high.

 

My first daughter was the first in her school not to do maths for matriculation.

She used to sit outside the math classes singing and reading a book.

I was worried she might be mugged by the math students!(She came close)

 

Totally useless subject once you have primary school math.

 

 

and

 

 

As an astrophysicist I am offended, math is very usefull in many useless carrers :beer:

[BrainForce]

As an astrophysicist I am offended, math is very usefull in many useless careers

I agree....a brilliant maths makes us able to solve day-to-day life logical problems easily...while with primary maths we don't have such ability....

Maths is a mind-sharpener too...geometry,3d,vectors..also develop visual powers.....

 

well everyone has his/her own views ...but ya we should try to embrace maths..if not finding it very frustrating...

[Michaelangelica]

I agree....a brilliant maths makes us able to solve day-to-day life logical problems easily...while with primary maths we don't have such ability....

Primary school maths is sufficient for most day-to-day activities for most people.

Forcing kids to maths at higher levels is wasteful and stupid.

High school Maths is a most useless subject for most people.

It is also generally boringly, lazily and poorly taught

Maths is a mind-sharpener too...geometry,3d,vectors..also develop visual powers.....

So it chess, but most people can live without it

[CraigD]

Primary school maths is sufficient for most day-to-day activities for most people.

Forcing kids to maths at higher levels is wasteful and stupid.

High school Maths is a most useless subject for most people.

It is also generally boringly, lazily and poorly taught

This is a common opinion. In my several years of college tutoring, I heard it more times than I can recall – appallingly, most often from Education majors intending to find career in K-6 (primary school) teaching. I was nearly driven to berserk by the question “They don’t teach algebra in K through 6 – why do I need to know algebra”.

 

My answer, which I’m confident most hypographers would give also, is that algebra and other “higher” math reflects far more basic skills than the ability to find a specific real number that satisfies some equations – it reflects, and instructs one in, the ability to abstract ideas into and manipulate symbols. Many people seem almost entirely unskilled at this, while others seem to learn it without instruction before they’ve learned to read, with the majority of people, like myself, falling somewhere between these extremes. I find it hard to imagine not having some sort of symbolic algebraic skills, imagining it to be something like not having language – without it, the world would seem to me different, less clear.

 

I agree, however, that in many or most educational settings, Math is poorly taught. I suspect a reason for this is a high prevalence among teachers of the attitude Michaelangelica expresses, resulting in a dogmatic, unpleasant teaching style. Many mathematicians I know today consider their affection for math to be in spite of, not due to, the instruction they received in primary and secondary school, though many share the memory of “one good Math teacher” who revealed and affirmed to them the nearly unlimited domain, potential, wonder and beauty of math.

 

Nonetheless, Michealangelica’s claim that

Primary school maths is sufficient for most day-to-day activities for most people.

Forcing kids to maths at higher levels is wasteful and stupid.

is to a large extent valid. The majority of people in the world labor their whole lives in low-skilled, subsistence of near-subsistence jobs requiring little logical, symbolic, or creative thought, and little math beyond that required to detect entry errors on a cash register. The complicated technological underpinnings of our society – among which are those that permit us to be having this conversation – were created and are maintained by a small minority of people with skills not essential to most lives.

 

However, the suggestion that, because the majority of people will not need, and not acquire, mathematical skills, they should not be exposed to these disciplines in school, is, I believe incorrect. Because, without this exposure, boring, wasteful, and stupidly futile thought it may seem, the number of people who experience that “one good Math teacher”, and as a result acquire affection and ability for math - symbol manipulation in general - will be much smaller. IMHO, progress in science and technology is in large a function of the number of people effectively focused on it. People without symbol manipulation skills are, IMHO, greatly disadvantages at such pursuits.

 

PS: Though interesting, the thread since post #3 has veered severely off the topic of shadow67’s question about exponential growth. I’m moving it to the “philosophy of science” forum.

[Michaelangelica]

– it reflects, and instructs one in, the ability to abstract ideas into and manipulate symbols.

So too does logic, philosphy, english, language studies,geology, history, literature etc etc Maths is only useful in a few highly specialised fields.

Even in some of these like physics, creative,intuitive thought might be more helpful.

Many people seem almost entirely unskilled at this,

Including dumb-arsed lazy HS math teachers.

 

 

I agree, however, that in many or most educational settings, Math is poorly taught. I suspect a reason for this is a high prevalence among teachers of the attitude Michaelangelica expresses, resulting in a dogmatic, unpleasant teaching style.

Just stupid and lazy. Science is beginning to suffer the same fate as the standard of teaching graduates continues to plumit. In UK they are bringing in math and science undergraduates or post graduates with a love of their subject to teach part time or for just a few hours in school. This is resulting in a lot more enthusiasm among students and the occasional new math/science teacher.

 

My wife taught HS English. She would go home to mark and prepare lessons every night. The math teachers would go to the Pub (RSL).

During school holidays she would fill the car boot with marking and spend all breaks (except Christmas) marking till late at night. The math teachers played golf or went on holiday.

Many mathematicians I know today consider their affection for math to be in spite of, not due to, the instruction they received in primary and secondary school, though many share the memory of “one good Math teacher” who revealed and affirmed to them the nearly unlimited domain, potential, wonder and beauty of math.

You can say that about any subject not just maths. An inspiring teacher is a joy to behold. tThey do however often 'burn out' emotionall from consatnt giving and are not supported by the hireachy of education or by financial rewards. Three reasons why there are so few of them.

Nonetheless, Michealangelica’s claim thatis to a large extent valid. The majority of people in the world labor their whole lives in low-skilled, subsistence of near-subsistence jobs requiring little logical, symbolic, or creative thought, and little math beyond that required to detect entry errors on a cash register.

Yes but I was being more general than that. Talking about western world not just the Third world underclass.

The complicated technological underpinnings of our society – among which are those that permit us to be having this conversation – were created and are maintained by a small minority of people with skills not essential to most lives.

Yes true, but we now live in an especially technological world.

But Alan Turing ,who I regard as the inventor of the computer, was not just a mathematician. He had a unique, intuitive intelligence. Without him we would all, no doubt, be speaking German.

When the boffins were filling Bletchely Park with intelligent people during WW2 they called on many skills including chess players, linguists, cross-word-puzzle experts, and what I like to call "Wizards' people with quirky, challenging, self-confident, iconoclastic, 'lucky' intelligence. (These do poorly in the corporate world today, for obvious reasons)

 

Many other aspects of our world, art science,letters, philosophy, archeology, ethics, politics, languages, sociology are at least as important, if not more important, in making up a humane 'society".

We need the idea first; then the number crunchers can go to work.

You don't see many mathematicians in the streets 'burning their bras'

 

Most secondary students in Australia are forced to do HS math, being told it is necessary for matriculation -which is a lie- very few will actually use it later in life.

Most of the statistics I learnt at university can now be performed by the push of a button on a computer. I am greatfull to some mathematician somewhere for this. But in the end it will be my spin on the results that will be most significant.

People without symbol manipulation skills are, IMHO, greatly disadvantages at such pursuits.

symbol manipulation skills = language

Maths is a 'symbol manipulation skill' that allows you to talk only to other mathematicians. Mathematicians, as a group, tend to be poor communicators. Math 'closes in' thought rather than educato "to lead out"

MA a GOM

[Turtle]

You don't need maths.

It is useless unless you want to be a Quantum physicist.

 

Both my kids were good at maths but did not take it into upper high.

 

My first daughter was the first in her school not to do maths for matriculation.

She used to sit outside the math classes singing and reading a book.

I was worried she might be mugged by the math students!(She came close)

 

Totally useless subject once you have primary school math.

 

:doh: Youv'e gone totally & completely 108% off your gourd this time Micha! ;) :( Beside the fact that the phrase 'primary school math' is undefined, and beside the fact that a single anecdotal bit of evidence is bereft of statistical validity, the idea that we Earthlings ought to dumb down our offspring flies in the face of our very humanity.

 

Let's cut out vocabulary too so that words like 'matriculation' don't go confusifying the youth.

 

Good grief! :doh: :cup:

[Queso]

Have any of you ever seen the GED exam?

 

I just recently passed it with absolutely no effort at all.

The mathematics test had problems I learned how to solve in 6th and 7th grade...at the most.

 

I knew there was no reason I had to attend High School...

[Erasmus00]

You don't need maths.

It is useless unless you want to be a Quantum physicist.

 

I would disagree rather strongly. To really understand almost any technical field requires some calculus at least. Engineers obviously need math, regardless of whether they be biological, chemical, etc. Economists use calculus.

 

Also, science has truly shaped the world we live in. Without some understanding of calculus, I would argue that no one could have any real appreciation for the history of the last few centuries.

 

More importantly: we live in a world dominated by computers. To really understand how a comuter works requires an ability to work with abstract quantities symbolically, and probably a bit of discrete math.

 

To some up: any even slightly technical field requires math. Understanding modern history requires math. Understanding the technology that drives our society requires math.

 

edit: also advertisement is loaded with statistics (4 out of 5 dentists, 40% of those who responded, etc). We are constantly being bombarded with studies/statistics,etc. To really make an informed decision, a minimal knowledge of statistics is quite necessary.

-Will

[Michaelangelica]

I would disagree rather strongly. To really understand almost any technical field requires some calculus at least.

I disagree. How does math help you understand the role of Erasmus in the Reformation?

Engineers obviously need math, regardless of whether they be biological, chemical, etc.

Yes true, but ever profession you qute that needs math I can quote 2 that don't

Economists use calculus.

Do they or are they actuaries?

 

Also, science has truly shaped the world we live in. Without some understanding of calculus, I would argue that no one could have any real appreciation for the history of the last few centuries.

 

More importantly: we live in a world dominated by computers. To really understand how a computer works requires an ability to work with abstract quantities symbolically, and probably a bit of discrete math.

I don't need to understand my car in order to drive it. I have no desire or need to understand how a computer works to use it.

 

To some up: any even slightly technical field requires math. Understanding modern history requires math. Understanding the technology that drives our society requires math.

How does understanding modern history require calculus or any more than basic maths?

edit: also advertisement is loaded with statistics (4 out of 5 dentists, 40% of those who responded, etc). We are constantly being bombarded with studies/statistics,etc. To really make an informed decision, a minimal knowledge of statistics is quite necessary.

-Will

Even mathematicians don't understand statistics. many science papers are peppered with bogus stats.

Anyway these concepts can be taught in English and media studies. Four out of five is not a concept a 12 year old primary school kid would have problems with.

[InfiniteNow]

Even mathematicians don't understand statistics. many science papers are peppered with bogus stats. Anyway these concepts can be taught in English and media studies. Four out of five is not a concept a 12 year old would have problems with.

 

You keep reminding me of some of these scenes from Family Guy. :)

 

YouTube - Family Guy - Chris Functioning In The Real World http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OByzOAEflww

 

YouTube - Family Guy - Peter does math http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTHdcXmB3Vs

 

YouTube - Math test Family.Guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncxRzXwNg-M

 

 

 

:shrug:

 

I think your axe grinds more toward the teacher than toward the subject, but that's just an interpolation of mine based on what you've shown me as a human being through your posts here on the big H.

[Turtle]

Even mathematicians don't understand statistics. many science papers are peppered with bogus stats. Anyway these concepts can be taught in English and media studies. Four out of five is not a concept a 12 year old would have problems with.

 

So your solution is to teach fewer people to recognize math errors!!?? How ya gonna promote your save-the-world-charcoal scheme if people can't understand the math? For that matter, little of your global warming talk is of any value without 'higher' math.

 

You're out to lunch on this one Micha, with an axe to grind no less. Sorry you missed the math train. :shrug: :)

[Buffy]

If people spent more time learning math there would be less time to spend on wars and stealing stuff from other people...

 

Is to give math a chance, :)

Buffy

[Queso]

If people spent more time learning math there would be less time to spend on wars and stealing stuff from other people...

 

Is to give math a chance, :)

Buffy

 

I like that. :shrug:

[Erasmus00]

There was some quote mistagging in the post I'm quoting. I've done my best to untangle it.

 

Economists use calculus.

 

Do they or are they actuaries

 

Both economists and actuaries use calculus.

 

I don't need to understand my car in order to drive it. I have no desire or need to understand how a computer works to use it.

 

Yes and no. To paraphrase Sagan, setting up a society that DEPENDS on technology and then making sure no one actually understands it seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

how does understanding modern history require more than basic maths?

 

Most of the important events of modern times revolve around technology (the information age, the cold war/weapons race, the development of flight, space technology, etc.). I argue that you can't understand such developments without some understanding of the actual mathematics.

 

Even mathematicians don't understand statistics. many science papers are peppered with bogus stats. Anyway these concepts can be taught in English and media studies. Four out of five is not a concept a 12 year old would have problems with.

 

Statistics is inherently a mathematical field. To say "we don't need math classes because we can teach math in English/media studies classes" is kind of silly.

 

Also, earlier in the thread you said

 

Many other aspects of our world, art science,letters, philosophy, archeology, ethics, politics, languages, sociology are at least as important, if not more important, in making up a humane 'society".

We need the idea first; then the number crunchers can go to work.

You don't see many mathematicians in the streets 'burning their bras'

 

This makes me feel that you lack an appreciation for the deeper, creative aspects of math. Math is not about "crunching numbers" its about creating new, powerful ideas that allow the world to be analyzed in new, profound ways.

 

Calculus is as much a high water mark for human thought as any work of philosophy. To claim that its important to study the works of Sartre, Homer or Kierkegaard, but that its not important to study the rudiments of calculus is to disregard a large part of our intellectual heritage. You don't need to have read The Iliad to function in a first world society, neither do you need to understand calculus, however, they both provide a deep enrichment.

-Will

[Queso]

 

This makes me feel that you lack an appreciation for the deeper, creative aspects of math. Math is not about "crunching numbers" its about creating new, powerful ideas that allow the world to be analyzed in new, profound ways.

 

 

-Will

Me thinks Turtle's blue triangles and God's black holes.

I think that even though we all know numbers,

We all see mathematics completely differenly in our partitioned (sub)minds.

 

Some people are phenomenal! Like you guys! Far beyond my comprehension EVER. And even though I can't use your equations to invision universal truth,

I can, with a different kind of equation.

See how that just kind of oscillates?

Waveform comes back to me and here I am counting everything all of the time. I am the conductor of probability.

Maybe one night you'll get to listen.

I'll improvise a komoto dragon, and her deepest emotions.

 

Waltz is in 3. You can sing over it in 5.

You will come back together again after 5 bars of playing together.

Every 5 bars your waltz downbeats will harmonize.

and every 3 bars your 5/4 vocals will harmonize with the waltz.

:shrug:

* * * * * * * * * *

1231231231231231

1234512345123451234512345

 

(philip glass is one of my favorites 'cause he's always doing this with so many different time signatures and instruments.

I wonder what music looks like to you mathmagicians...)

 

 

That is exactly what 2012 is about ()

Just all the universal, cosmic, and lunar numbers coming together for once in a long, long time.

For anyone who is a fan of rhythm... you should be pretty excited for the collective intensity of Earth and Man! :)

 

Just look around! We are conscious! Waking up! Connecting the internet! Speeding up technology! Killing lots of other people! Overpopulating!

 

This point in time is near the middle of a spiral can't you feel it?

 

(Had to ramble. I love math! Just in a different wayee..) :cup:

[Buffy]

Math is not about "crunching numbers" its about creating new, powerful ideas that allow the world to be analyzed in new, profound ways.

Just to echo this: I was totally sucky at math in elementary school. To this day, I still can't add, subtract, multiply or divide without thinking. I hated it. I got C's. Once I got into Algebra though, it was *fun*: its not "numbers" its a *language*, and languages are what I do. Its all about manipulating symbols to get different meanings and to communicate and to discover.

 

Now *that's* cool!

 

Parsing, Integrating, its all the same,

Buffy