Do you believe or not believe in a deity? Why?

[CraigD]

In the thread 11423CerebralEcstasy asked what I think is a very significant theological question:

I wanted to know more about how he [ughaibu] arrived at his conclusions - I wanted to know why he didn't believe. If he ever did etc.

 

Most people that I have spoken with, have at one point in time believed in a higher power, yet for some reason or another have moved away from that line of thinking. I wanted to know if this was the case with Ug.

I think the question applies to all people, atheists and theist alike, and is essential to the central theological question “what is religion?”

 

So, what are our personal answers to the question? This is one of those “no right, no wrong answer” questions – please, if it please you to do so, take the poll, then honestly relate your reasons for your agnosticism, atheism, or theism, without attempting to convince or convert others to your position.

 

We may learn from the effort.

[InfiniteNow]

My reaction is a bit of a dual approach.

 

I believe in a “deity” in that huge portions of the world’s population discuss this concept, and this concept alters the behavior and relationships of that population.

 

I do not believe in a deity in the manner of some old white guy with a beard, or some six armed long tongued goddess, or some thunderbolt holding bull, or some jolly fat fellow, or some father of the sun who sends archers with magic bows to scare children, or ad infinitum.

 

As I sense may be evident from my tone above (as well as other submissions to this site), I tend to hold strongly to the idea that this is mass delusion, carried on via tradition and social learning, manipulated by some to gain power and control, and held so strong by so many because of an inherent existential anxiety about the unknown and death.

 

Between description of stars and planets by the ancients, deep amazement with the concept of procreation, and patriarchal social economics, deities are tools used to assuage the weak minded masses.

[Buffy]

You've forced me to choose "always been a theist," but I've always perceived multiple gradations of "theism." My belief in a "deity" extends to her being "the girl that pressed the Start Button," who really doesn't care much about humans, because its all creation, and is not a "meddling God" who makes decisions, and directs individuals. You have to have an unbelievably egotistical and self-centered view of creation to think anything else in my mind. "Created in His image?" You've got to be joking....

 

Dissociatively though, I see God as personified by--as many of you already know--Santa and the Easter Bunny: this is a completely separate notion that has to do with making the world a better place *for us and by us for our own good*. I think that morals (to touch on the popular topic here) are indeed evolutionarily explainable and are a Good Thing for all of us if we'd just follow them! If it is "useful" to have a "spiritual guide" leading the way to better morals, that's just an efficient implementation of getting everyone to do the right thing, and Santy Claus and the Easter Bunny do that just fine for me! If my "belief in them" helps me get other people to treat each other right, then I've accomplished something good!

 

Neither of these have anything to do with the "deity" that seems to be the most popular--which I do *not* believe in--and that is the socio-political gravitational force that allows communities to band together through leaders who claim special relationships with God and use that cohesion against "enemy religions". This is a hold over from the original role of religion as a source of governmental power in which the church and state were synonymous. Because of this historical role we continue to see religions tied to a notion that God listens to them and shuns other religions, and that kind of deity is despicable. A pretty good definition of the Devil in my book....if your deity says that other religions are false, your deity is totally sucky.

 

Doing well by doing good,

Buffy

[hug]

As this is a science-oriented site, but also including questions of religion and philosophy and so forth, and we are all humans of course, should we not keep in mind how science works and what it can prove or disprove, and what it perhaps can't? I am a newcomer, so I have probably missed some important dialogue on that subject. (I haven't even visited, I don't think, the philosophy of science area yet.)

 

But, if science is about having knowledge and confidence in something to varying degrees of confidence, until something else disproves the earlier knowledge or improves upon it, and if these confidence levels are never, or at least very rarely, said to be 100% (unless about something that is self-evident, like "I have a rock in my hand"), then science so far can't really prove or disprove God, especially in the various forms that "God" could have, some of which could, at least possibly, be well beyond our ability to sense or imagine or visualize. I think. I'm not stating my view one way or t'other, but simply exploring science itself.

 

As we know, many leading scientists think there are more than three dimensions (in physical space) or more than four in space-time. Many scientists are trying to figure out whether the universe is best described by little stringy-like things, and many of those think there are extra dimensions. And (I understand) many highly-scientifically-oriented people still find it very hard to visualize and imagine what Einstein said and what gravity seems to be or might be. Do we have a warped universe? (Well, the answer to that in some senses is clear.) And I'm sure that even in saying this I've probably made a mistake in how I worded it of some sort.

 

So, my own view is, although I haven't read his latest book in its entirety yet (but I've read of it, including some quotes), I think that Dawkins, for example (who I respect alot for his great work on "selfish genes"), may have gone too far, stretching and losing some credibility in the process, in arguing that any smart person should come to the same conclusion that he does, which is that God, or a god, simply does not exist. Some of his logic on that particular front is not impressive nor credibility-building, at least not to me.

 

I wonder whether the subject, the way he has taken it on, is not more divisive than helpful? Thus, while people can agree or disagree on what happened in the very very beginning, and why, or even if "why?" makes sense to ask at that time, or even what happened before the beginning, and in what may or may not happen in dimensions currently beyond our understanding, I think it's more productive to focus (and quick) on what we do have in common across all peoples, and use that understanding to cooperate better and address the rather large problems we face, at least in discussions in society at large. Here, of course, it is good and valid to ask the questions, but I don't think they have 100% answers, at least not yet.

 

Keep doin' good Buffy.

 

Cheers. "hug"

[tmaromine]

I'm an atheist, but once believed... I was never much of any denomination though ; my parents don't do anything with church unless there is some school event or a wedding or the like.

 

To start off, I'm a rather 'young' atheist, when I think about it. It was August or so of last year, that I finally converted.

 

Whether anyone knows or not I don't know, but I'm 15 – 16 in Octobre. I have a strange thinkingful and 'philisiphial' mind, very abstract, and I think last summer, I started to think. As I remember back to it, one reason was because, that, I simply wanted people to treat each other equally, and as they would want to be treated, and with ignoring things that are commonly noticed, and don't need to be when considering to like a person. For me, I felt like that the only way I could be "noticed" for what I want, was by being an atheist. . .I feel like I'd be more listend to. (I don't even know if I really am listened to today, but, as long as I listen to myself.)

 

I think another part of the reason, was also that I saw being nice to people if they are nice people and if they are nice to me as 'right'. Simply the right way to be. Add a religion-factour, and, it doesn't as much matter whether people are nice. . .because the nice ones just think they're going to Heaven, and the bad ones rarely care any way. To me, 'niceness' and 'equality' have more a meaning without any deity. Get a God, and, who cares ?... Good to Heaven, Bad to Hell, if the Bad even care/believe...

 

Largely, it was also from just staring at the sky and stars and clouds and sun phases. . .contemplating. In those moments, it rather clearly seems that humans have simply created a world, in which they feel 'safe' in... Religion is quite the safe-feeling factor. So as I see it, life only has meaning when we give it meaning. I want to die under a night sky. . .and I've completely lost being scared of death. I would just enjoy not dying this young, as I want to make a change, but most likely, some day, there will be another person who thinks in the sames ways and wants to be good, simply because it is the good thing to do, and make a difference...

 

(That isn't my whole storey. Everytime I retell it, I tell a different part and leave out some thing I've told before, it seems... But that's it generally, I think.)

[ughaibu]

The idea that religion involves a comfort mechanism, making practitioners feel safe, is quite widespread, so it's interesting to read the stories of deconverts at Internet Infidels, once over the initial anxiety the typical reaction of these people is relief. When they became able to view the situation from outside, it was clear that they had found their religions stressful and to induce feelings of guilt.

[ughaibu]

I recently came across some studies on the asymmetry of deconversion, unfortunately I only bookmarked this one: Atheist Deconversion

[C1ay]

I think the poll questions are flawed. Agnosticism is not about belief or disbelief in a deity, it's about believeing whether or not man could ever know the truth. One is a theist or not with a belief in a deity or not. One can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist. I am an agostic atheist, I do not believe in any deity and I don't believe that there can or will ever be any proof that a deity does or does not exist.

[paigetheoracle]

My belief in God goes back to my philosophy of science thread - Magic or Science? To me Go(o)d is just in a way my future self as the d(evil)is my past self. By this I mean the person who has all the answers versus he who has none (Our ignorant self versus our knowledgeable self). Infinite made a good point and I'd like to wrap that up in this too - namely as the New Age guru's/ self-help brigade keep pointing out, once you stop believing in yourself, you cease to exist quite so strongly in this world but the more sensible you become - we all start as CWE and end as 'me' in other words. This is the aging process and is about defeatism versus crude crunching over everybody elses finer sensibilities, to get what you want (In this state you might think you're God but to others, you're the Devil instead). To me life is a journey (Taoism) and the states we end up in depends on whether we are coming or going: God knows the answers through experience and the devil is the ignorant so-and-so out to find them out through any means possible (Our childish self versus our adult one). No little man with a beard on a white cloud but anyone we meet on the path of our life, including ourselves in that or its opposite role (matter v. anti-matter/mirror image versus no image).;):lol:

 

Harking back to my original thesis (Just like The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, I keep returning to my seminal work), The Accumulation/ Discharge Cycle and the other names it comes under The Systemic Universe/ 2 Worlds Exchange theory, I believe we actually operate using both of these equal but opposite 'halves' (input/output - creation/destruction). We take in the new (good) and expel the old (evil), within society (emigration/immigration - war/peace (trade/stealing or wiping out old rivals to ensure we get our hands on limited resources) or even our own body at every level: Cellular, Organic (whole body - eating and vowel movements/ sex and birth etc). I could go on but God forbid I should bore you to death with facts and figures.

[Freddy]

Agnostic now, former Catholic, who does not know and does not care. Guess what? No one else knows either!