whoa182 Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Some people keep thinking, because humans took millions of years, A computer would take millions or thousands or hundreds. thats not the case. Computer ARE evolving Millions of times faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Absolutely whoa182; and thats exactly why I started this thread. It may be that we are on the verge of the greatest scientific advancements in human history. Then again we might be opening Pandora's Box??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 I took into account that computers evolve faster, but they also are starting from an incredibly primitive 'life-form', and they have fewer things causing them to mutate. But I'd love to try to run them for a few years and track their progress...it would be kind of like being a god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 11, 2005 Report Share Posted January 11, 2005 Computers do not evolve. To do so they would have to be subjected to environmental change such as scarce resources threatening their survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Computers do not evolve. To do so they would have to be subjected to environmental change such as scarce resources threatening their survival.Lindagarrette; I believe Freethinker gave evidence for this evolutionary process in his last post on this topic. If you disagree with these findings, would you explain how you came to your decision about these results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 That article is hogwash. In the first place randomness is not possible in computers. Second, what evidence is there that this so called experiment was conducted? Who are the authors? The explanation of how computers work is extremely simplistic and superficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 For scientific explanations of AI, look up neural networks. Here's a good place to start. http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~lss/NNIntro/InvSlides.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormod Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 In the first place randomness is not possible in computers. HOW COMPUTERS GENERATE RANDOM NUMBERS http://members.cox.net/srice1/random/introduction.htm Also, the guy who invented the computer game "Creatures" has written a book called "Creation- Life and how to make it" - for a review/interview check out http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/01/02/grand/?CP=COR&DN=310 The author Steve Grand has some very interesting ideas about the subject and I think there is more to genetic algorithms than just the creation of random numbers. Here's another interview with him: http://www.generation5.org/content/1999/grand.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 In the first place randomness is not possible in computers. Anybody who believes in a deterministic universe believes that randomness isn't possible at all, yet evolution still occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Anybody who believes in a deterministic universe believes that randomness isn't possible at all, yet evolution still occurs. Even if you believe in "free will", you have to recognize that computers are completely deterministic. Random number generators work for many iterations the end result is always predictable. As in chaos theory, varying the "seed" is merely changing a variable that determines a different end result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 HOW COMPUTERS GENERATE RANDOM NUMBERS http://members.cox.net/srice1/random/introduction.htm Also, the guy who invented the computer game "Creatures" has written a book called "Creation- Life and how to make it" - for a review/interview check out http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/01/02/grand/?CP=COR&DN=310 The author Steve Grand has some very interesting ideas about the subject and I think there is more to genetic algorithms than just the creation of random numbers. Here's another interview with him: http://www.generation5.org/content/1999/grand.asp The speculations in those links have interesting notions but they are not scientific and Steve is quite wrong in some of his conclusions, especially when he claims we don't have the vaguest idea how the brain works. Neurophysists have very sound information and solid theories in that department. The brain uses boolean logic in much the same way all computers do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Evolving machine code is indeed possible and has been demonstrated numerous times. It's possible that a machine then could invent an improved version of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Even if you believe in "free will", you have to recognize that computers are completely deterministic. Random number generators work for many iterations the end result is always predictable. As in chaos theory, varying the "seed" is merely changing a variable that determines a different end result. So are you saying that evolution can only occur if there is free will? Evolution can occur even to viruses, which are not technically alive and merely following natural law, which is what a program does, it follows the computer's natural law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoa182 Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Guided evoloution, natural selection... whatever. "chip speed and cost-effectiveness increase exponentially. There's even exponential growth in the rate of exponential growth. This exponential growth is not restricted to hardware, but with accelerating gains in brain reverse engineering, also applies to software" "By 2019, a $1,000 computer will match the processing power of the human brain—about 20 million billion calculations per second. This level of processing power is a necessary but not sufficient condition for achieving human-level intelligence in a machine " These are based on current treds in Technology and if they carry on as they have been for the past few decades. Software is expected to take longer, just because we will have the computer power, does it mean that its intelligent? probably not. Its probably not just going to wake up all of a sudden. At any time we could seed intelligent software that rapidly learns, It might not even take much code at all. But that few lines of code, may change everything and it could come at anytime I believe. estimate of brain capacity is 100 billion neurons times an average 1,000 connections per neuron (with the calculations taking place primarily in the connections) times 200 calculations per second. Although these estimates are conservatively high, one can find higher and lower estimates. However, even much higher (or lower) estimates by orders of magnitude only shift the prediction by a relatively small number of years. Some salient dates from this analysis include the following: We achieve one Human Brain capability (2 * 10^16 cps) for $1,000 around the year 2023. We achieve one Human Brain capability (2 * 10^16 cps) for one cent around the year 2037. We achieve one Human Race capability (2 * 10^26 cps) for $1,000 around the year 2049. We achieve one Human Race capability (2 * 10^26 cps) for one cent around the year 2059 We can determine the growth rate over a period of time: Growth Rate =10^((LOG(CPS/$1K for Current Year)—LOG(CPS/$1K for Previous Year))/(Current Year—Previous Year)) Human Brain = 100 Billion (10^11) neurons * 1000 (10^3) Connections/Neuron * 200 (2 * 10^2) Calculations Per Second Per Connection = 2 * 10^16 Calculations Per Second Human Race = 10 Billion (10^10) Human Brains = 2 * 10^26 Calculations Per Second These formulas produce the graph below. There is a lot to read so I have just chose certain parts of the article. Its a long article but it migh Interest some of you. ray kurzweil is a highly respected in his field of A.I and technology, hes made many things and has a good record of predicted events based on trends and research he and his teams have done http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0500.html? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Evolving machine code is indeed possible and has been demonstrated numerous times. It's possible that a machine then could invent an improved version of itself. Where is evidence of "evolving" code and what does that mean, anyway? Evolution is a biological concept and does not have anything to do with learning. A machine can only act as it is programed (as it learns) to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindagarrette Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 So are you saying that evolution can only occur if there is free will? Evolution can occur even to viruses, which are not technically alive and merely following natural law, which is what a program does, it follows the computer's natural law.In the first place, no I did not say that and second, viruses are genetic entities which reproduce and mutate, third, what is a computer's natural law? and fourth, what is your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted January 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Guided evoloution, natural selection... whatever. Hey there whoa182; This is a good read, it points out some very interesting possibilities. Edited by Tormod: Please do not include complete quotes in replies, especially when they are extremely long. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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