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We Must Never Forget: Remembering the Holocaust


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#18 lemit

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 06:56 AM

Well, a few weeks ago I got a lot of help in getting people to remember the Holocaust. That memory seems to be waning now, so I guess it's time to go back to work.

The postwar German authors are remarkable to me because they see devastation everywhere and see the possibility of their own responsibility for that devastation. Their response is to be the first voices of postwar Germany and the beginning of a theme all German school children were taught: "We must never forget."

Alexander, thank you for the family history. Don't feel bad about the difficulty in remembering. That's what family history is. That's cultural transmission. That's what I want here.

James von Brunn is an illustration of the problem the postwar German authors wanted to preclude. They thought (naively) that if the world never forgot the Holocaust, maybe the world wouldn't be tempted to repeat it. The world has shown its ability to ignore them many times, in Cambodia, Bosnia, Darfur, and all the places I'd like Hypographers to help me help other people to remember.

It is only by continuing the debate that we will continue to raise the level of discomfort with events like the Holocaust. We should never feel comfort after such an event. All the thorns in our sides serve their purposes.

So thank you Alexander, for your story and your challenge. They are both part of the intricate fabric we need to weave as long as we are capable. There are so many whose memory needs to be preserved.

--lemit

#19 GAHD

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 09:20 AM

We forget too soon, to often.

I see lots of talk about WW2, but rarely how concentration camps were used by Canada, the USA, etc... It's always the Germans prosecuting the Jews, no one cares to speak of the Japanese and Chinese in north america and how they were treated.

Kosovo had some horrible things happen not too long ago, infact I went to school with some of the refugees who came to Canada. Rare is the day I see someone talking about recent and relevant events of this nature, and that I think is where our focus needs to be; not on something that happened generations in the past.

#20 alexander

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:24 PM

Gahd, i am on your side, though i have to say, remembering even the recent past can just be so depressing...

But, you know, one thing i learned from my great grand mother, my grandfather, and other people who remember a lot of what happened? Actually I'll sum it up in an old russian saying, "Кто старое помянет, тому глаз вон" (approximately, "who recalls the old, shall pay with his eye" (obviously this drives from the tzarist russia and the punishments)) And, I think the saying is very good at saying that we should be looking at the problems today, not recalling and replaying the past. Though to be fair there is the second part of that saying "а кто забудет, тому оба" (approximately, "and who forgets, will pay with both") The whole point of the saying is, remember, but don't get stuck in it, learn from the past.

I dunno, there are just so many things we would have to remember, so many people killed for so many different reasons, all regions of the world, many nations, it's depressing just thinking about it...

#21 Boerseun

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 04:20 AM

In South Africa, the Boers fought the Brits in the Second Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902. This was a totally just war on the Boer side, as the British decided to invade after the discovery of the world's biggest gold deposits to date in the Witwatersrand in the early 1890s. The Brits recognized the Boer republics' sovereignty, but could not ignore the lure of tons and tons of the shiny stuff.

And so, after suffering embarrassing and humiliating defeats through the first year of the war, the Brits decided to prosecute the war with a scorched-earth policy. They built concentration camps and herded all the Boer women and children there "for their own protection", and then burnt down farms and killed and confiscating livestock, chasing the Boers further and further into the bush whilst the war raged on.

It seems as if the concentration camps were built to protect the women and children, but this turned out not to be the case. It was a huge drain on the British war effort - those Boer women and kids needed to be fed, clothed and housed for however long the war might carry on. And so they invented a method to reduce the numbers, so they'll have more shillings and pounds to buy ammunition with - corned beef cans laced with broken glass. They systematically killed off the Boer population so that they can get unhampered access to the gold reefs on the Witwatersrand. 27,000 Boer women and children were intentionally killed in these concentration camps, quite a few of them family of mine. My grandfather was born in 1904, his mother was never caught and locked up in a camp during the war. But both her sisters and all their children were intentionally killed in the camp near Magersfontein with ingested broken glass.

You will nowhere read about this - like Winston Churchill said, "to the victor's go the spoils, in that they get to write the history". But there are a couple of sites on the web dedicated to keeping the memory of this atrocity (for which the Brits have never apologised nor even attempted to keep it alive in their history curricula) alive, and you should find them with little effort.

Yet, today, I am the third generation in my family since the Boer War, I'm a Boer, and I'm holding no grudges at all against Charlene, the mother of my child, who's English, and the direct descendant of those Brits who killed my people.

The point I'm trying to make is that we can't take responsibility for our ancestor's idiocy and/or suffering (depends which side they were on). But it's still interesting to note that everybody wants to keep the memory of Hitler's atrocities alive without considering that he didn't invent the concept of herding people together and then killing them - the precedent was set just a few decades before he got to the scene, by the very Brits who claim to have fought for "justice" in WW 1 & 2.

There's an old joke doing the round in SA about the Brits - they were very arrogant in the heyday of their Empire saying "The sun never sets on the British Empire", to which the Boers replied "Only because God doesn't trust those bastards in the dark."

But joking aside - I think the admirable effort people like you are willing to go to in order to ensure us "not forgetting" isn't nearly as important an effort as a global push towards freedom of speech and freedom of the press everywhere. Because that will be a much more efficient mechanism in preventing these kinda things of happening again.

#22 enorbet2

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 08:04 PM

Excellent points Boerseun! I can't recall who said "If I had to give up all rights except one I'd choose freedom of speech because with that one I could win back all the others" but he r0x!
The only value in remembering the past is to stop those spin-doctors and agenda-ridden idealogues who would use those shadows to do it again in the present. So maybe a thread should begin proposing that the fight most worth fighting for, dying for, and even being offended for (as so many seem to forget is the price we pay for the higher good) is Free Speech!

#23 Moontanman

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 08:18 PM

Native Americans (my ancestors) were herded together and killed via bio warfare (small pox infected blankets) and made to starve as well by isolating them from any means of providing for themselves. The were made to march from the eastern USA to the western USA their lands were stolen and many died on what was known as the trail of tears. The civilized nations were systematically destroyed for land and the gold it contained even though they had sworn loyalty to the USA. If we really looked i am sure we could find instances of such genocide much further back. The chosen people of God were notorious for killing off their enemies man woman and child......

#24 Michaelangelica

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 05:27 PM

We forget too soon, to often.

I see lots of talk about WW2, but rarely how concentration camps were used by Canada, the USA, etc... It's always the Germans prosecuting the Jews, no one cares to speak of the Japanese and Chinese in north america and how they were treated.
.

The Nazi camps where cattle slaughtering yards not Concentration camps.
The west's worst in recent times is Guantanamo bay. Even with its torture and sensory deprivation it does not compare to the Nazi Death camps.

My father once said to me after I had criticized the Japanese "Don't you EVER let me hear you criticising the Japanese--because WE did just as bad back to them".
He never spoke of his war experiences but I now know he buried his whole platoon in the jungles of Borneo. The war screwed him up for life.
Contrast this with the attitude of some WW2 veterans who won't buy a Japanese or Italian car!

Some WW2 war stories are just emerging now. Like the New Guinea native tribe that captured a whole lot of Japanese during WW2. They decided they couldn't eat them as they were "White Mans' enemy" so after much deliberation they decided that they should be punished the "White Mans' way".
So they crucified them to trees all up the Markham valley.

How come the war criminal Wernher von Braun got a"get out of jail free card"? Designing and developing terror weapons, to kill civilians, does not make a war criminal?

Please read "Stalingrad" it will make you feel sorry for the Germans!
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#25 lemit

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:16 AM

The Nazi camps where cattle slaughtering yards not Concentration camps.
The west's worst in recent times is Guantanamo bay. Even with its torture and sensory deprivation it does not compare to the Nazi Death camps.

My father once said to me after I had criticized the Japanese "Don't you EVER let me hear you criticising the Japanese--because WE did just as bad back to them".
He never spoke of his war experiences but I now know he buried his whole platoon in the jungles of Borneo. The war screwed him up for life.
Contrast this with the attitude of some WW2 veterans who won't buy a Japanese or Italian car!

Some WW2 war stories are just emerging now. Like the New Guinea native tribe that captured a whole lot of Japanese during WW2. They decided they couldn't eat them as they were "White Mans' enemy" so after much deliberation they decided that they should be punished the "White Mans' way".
So they crucified them to trees all up the Markham valley.

How come the war criminal Wernher von Braun got a"get out of jail free card"? Designing and developing terror weapons, to kill civilians, does not make a war criminal?

Please read "Stalingrad" it will make you feel sorry for the Germans!


I would like to know more about why your father said what he said, since he seems to have been in a position to know. I remember, when I was growing up and even into the Vietnam War, hearing that "those people" don't feel pain or grief the way we do. That's possibly an excuse for squashing a bug, but it goes considerably beyond simply demonizing the enemy. I will research Borneo, but I'd like people to submit any other personal stories.

I believe it was William Tecumseh Sherman, arguably the inventor of modern, total war, who said he wanted to make war so terrible that people would feel less inclined to appeal to it in the future. That hasn't worked very well so far, possibly because we all like to forget about war as soon as possible. That's one of the things I'd like this thread to accomplish, in the way Mathew Brady's photographs made Sherman's war visible for the first time in history.

It's hard not to laugh at the New Guinea story and then embarrassing to have laughed at it. It does show those missionaries accomplished something beyond sexual restriction after all.

The way we peopled our space program is obscene. It is only imaginable by seeing everybody in that extensive project as Dick Cheney. (Every spy I've ever met acted somewhat like Dick Cheney, without the quacking.)

I will add "Stalingrad" to my reading list, which will simply grow that much longer, since the only reading I do now is Hypography.

Thank you for all the new information.

I hope people understand this thread isn't meant to be just about WWII. I picked the German postwar authors because not forgetting is vital, because they took it upon themselves, at a time when other Germans were already starting the denialist movement, to preserve a sense of unfathomable moral devastation, and simply because it's shining a light on that global prism from a slightly different angle.

Thanks for the help.

--lemit

#26 alexander

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:14 AM

Please read "Stalingrad" it will make you feel sorry for the Germans!

Really... Germans?

Listen i am not trying to say that killing german soldiers in camps and returning less then 5% is justified, but looking at what happened during the war, Germans did the same thing, capturing and executing armies at a time, coming into towns killing all men and boys, raping all the women and young girls, then setting the town on fire and going on to the next town/vilage/city to do the same thing, not saying that when in 45 Russians were moving to Berlin they didn't do similar things, and not that that was justified either, but i feel as bad for the russian soldiers facing germans in stalingrad, and all the people that were in town during air raids and artillery shellings, during constant back and forth between who controls the city, as i feel about the soldiers that while understanding that they should be retreating, were following their supreme commander's orders, and were forced to stay with ever-so-dwindling supplies...

But if you bring Stalingrad and German soldiers, why not bring Paris ot Leningrad with the people who lived in the cities, where germans that were seiging the city had all the supplies they needed, and people in town (lets pick leningrad, much more familiar with history of my home town) were given:
workers: 200 grams
soldiers in the city (women, children): 125 grams
military and mp officers, firemen, pilots: 300 grams
front line soldiers: 500 grams
of bread, which was made from 1/2 normal bread mix, flour, water, yeast, and 1/2 add ons like saw dust, grass and weeds in the summer, and was hardly edible. (that was it, by the way, there was no other food, in 42 dogs, cats, and rats were gone, and there wasn't a patch of green in the entire city in those summers). Add that to constant bomb threats (Germans carried over 100,000 air raids in the years of the blockade), death all around, so much that it became mundane, add to that the fact that the sewage system was not working, water pumping stations were bombed in the first days, so you had to walk to the rivers to get water, and in January 42, -30C temperatures (recorded for 8 days, and 3 month average of -19C), and only 4% of the pre-war power generated, and all that over for 871 days and suddenly Ann Frank diaries don't seem so bad anymore. Then look at casualties: german side 500,000, russian side 457,500 military, 986,500 civilian. And all of the sudden even Stalingrad doesn't seem so bad (there is also 668 days difference in duration)...

Not a pissing match, but it's not a reason to feel bad for a single group of people, thats all, after all it wasn't the Russians that invited over a million German troops to Stalingrad ;)

#27 lemit

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 07:10 AM

I misspoke (miswrote?) earlier in suggesting that Sherman's thinking about total war hasn't worked. We have given ourselves over to guerilla wars, regional proxy wars, and terrorism. I'm not sure we're better off.

Was it worse to use nuclear weapons on Japan than to use Napalm on Vietnam? Are the long-term effects really that much different? For that matter, were the short-term effects that much different?

There might be some times when living with a terrible toothache is worse than just grabbing a pair of pliers and going to work.

I can't believe I just said that. I don't know. War doesn't work. Peace doesn't seem to work. Is there a third alternative?

--lemit

#28 lemit

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 07:48 AM

About my new avatar:

It's my great grandfather's house in Missouri, which has probably fallen down or burned by now.

The picture, taken by my brother, could have been used by Ken Burns for his Civil War series. In fact, it was in the attic that I found my great great grandfather's Civil War uniform and put my four-year-old hands through the bullet holes.

I may have written this elsewhere, but since this is my thread, I'll repeat it here: My great great grandfather's unit was in the middle of the Hornet's Nest at Shiloh, where he was wounded. He therefore was probably one of those left on the field overnight, in the mud, watching by lightning as wild hogs devoured his comrades. His bad luck to have been shot--I believe it's called bravery by patriotic Americans--got him promoted when he was found.

As soon as he had gained enough strength, he escaped from the hospital and went home. When he was found there, he was demoted and spent the rest of the war in kitchens. Some twenty years later, in a drunken rage, he attacked his son, my great great uncle, with an axe. His son, my great great uncle, split his head open with a doubletree. Twenty years after that, the son shot and killed both his possibly unfaithful wife and himself. That ended my family's involvement in the Civil War, in 1909.

That's the only war story I know of from my own history, but I think it does maybe show that the Malthusian effects of war extend beyond the battlefield.

--lemit

#29 Kriminal99

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:24 AM

Here's something I was thinking about recently. Part of my family is jewish. I can't stand that side of my family most of the time. They are obnoxious, passive aggressive and generally ignorant of all kinds of logical fallacies.

They are obnoxious for example because they seem to feel they have some god given right to stick their nose in other people's personal business when they seem completely incapable of understanding what they see and are too pigheaded to listen when you try to open their mind to ideas other than social norms in their little group. To them, jewish social norms are above debating.

I personally am about not hiding anything and standing up for things, but at times have found myself not wanting to bother with these snots because they usually just make some dismissive statement when you try to stand up for an idea they are not familiar with. As if THEY know something about it, yet conveniently can't be bothered to share their opinion. As long as they can go hide in their little niche and all agree that outsiders are wrong, they think they don't have to justify their point of view or behavior.

When I was young I thought this was just my family, but then I began to notice that almost all Americanized Jewish people I meet are like this (Israelis I have met seem different which is not surprising).


What if it is jewish culture combined with human nature that makes them behave in this manner on average? I mean it seems to me it would only take a few elements. Discouraging isolation would strengthen the group mentality... ie tribal morality and the placing of social norms above truth. Discouraging violence or aggression of any kind would leave them with no outlet for their aggressive human nature - thus disrupting the natural balance that occurs when people are straightforward about such feelings.

Instead of confronting someone they had a problem with (eventually resulting in some kind of resolution) they would resort to things like talking about them behind their back... the type of behaviors that multiply whatever enmity is already there. Or bullshitting...

Most of the jewish people I have met can talk all kinds of bull. They are like psuedo confrontational in this respect. Lie cheat and steal, because at least these behaviors are not as bad as resorting to violence according to their culture. It doesn't matter if what you say is right or makes any sense... it only matters if it is convincing to the group.

Only if violence wasn't such a taboo, they would go through the same experiences as everyone else. 2 people would fight, both get hurt, realize it was pointless, and then in exhaustion, decide to be fair and open minded towards one another. They would realize that any aggressive behavior would put them back in that same place, so they only be aggressive to people who started it first.

I don't think most jews ever have such an experience and as such, become vindictive. The effects of this cascade down to all kinds of bad behavior. For instance, jews are immature with respect to fear. They fear death too much. This results in things like them not wanting to settle down with one person because it would mean their story would be told... just like if they were to die.

Thus, I come to the conclusion that jewish culture is fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the holocaust was just misplaced emnity against jewish culture. It wasn't right.... But how many jews got up on a soapbox and said "look here, we are decent people! What the heck is your problem? Tell me!" when all these sentiments were building up in germany? They probably did the same thing they always do. Ignore everyone outside of their group and act like they were just animals because they didn't adhere to jewish social norms. And oh my god don't even get me started on my father...

I don't know if it is a fundamental part of the religion or not. The torah says things like gentile souls are lesser and they are subject to greater punishments than jews. It seems to me the tribal morality starts right there. I have heard jews say things like they must endure such discrimination because they have failed in their duties in some way. IMO if that is the case, it is because they do not teach effective outlets for their aggressive human nature and thus behave in worse ways than everyone else.

As far as extended effects of the holocaust are concerned, I think understanding what happened and why would do wonders. Jews fear death too much, and therefore fear their story

#30 pamela

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 07:12 PM

Here's something I was thinking about recently. Part of my family is jewish. I can't stand that side of my family most of the time. They are obnoxious, passive aggressive and generally ignorant of all kinds of logical fallacies.

Family is still family regardles of ethnic and religious background. When you are perfect Krim, go ahead and cast the first stone.

They are obnoxious for example because they seem to feel they have some god given right to stick their nose in other people's personal business when they seem completely incapable of understanding what they see and are too pigheaded to listen when you try to open their mind to ideas other than social norms in their little group. To them, jewish social norms are above debating.

many people are like this, it is not specific to any religion

I personally am about not hiding anything and standing up for things, but at times have found myself not wanting to bother with these snots because they usually just make some dismissive statement when you try to stand up for an idea they are not familiar with. As if THEY know something about it, yet conveniently can't be bothered to share their opinion. As long as they can go hide in their little niche and all agree that outsiders are wrong, they think they don't have to justify their point of view or behavior

Krim, really, you are so self righteous, do you esteem yourself above all others?

When I was young I thought this was just my family, but then I began to notice that almost all Americanized Jewish people I meet are like this (Israelis I have met seem different which is not surprising).

almost all ????? How dare you.....
your opinion is simply that-yours it has no bearing on the thoughts and ideas of the collective sum of all the Jewish people currently residing in the states. Antisemitism will NOT be tolerated here, Krim

What if it is jewish culture combined with human nature that makes them behave in this manner on average? I mean it seems to me it would only take a few elements. Discouraging isolation would strengthen the group mentality... ie tribal morality and the placing of social norms above truth. Discouraging violence or aggression of any kind would leave them with no outlet for their aggressive human nature - thus disrupting the natural balance that occurs when people are straightforward about such feelings

What?????

Instead of confronting someone they had a problem with (eventually resulting in some kind of resolution) they would resort to things like talking about them behind their back... the type of behaviors that multiply whatever enmity is already there. Or bullshitting

hmmm kinda sounds alot like what you are doing right now

Most of the jewish people I have met can talk all kinds of bull. They are like psuedo confrontational in this respect. Lie cheat and steal, because at least these behaviors are not as bad as resorting to violence according to their culture. It doesn't matter if what you say is right or makes any sense... it only matters if it is convincing to the group.

unbelievable, did you actually post that comment? any respect that i may have had previously for you krim, has just greatly diminished. I have many friends, i do not use labels, for the sake of this argument, i will state that they are Jewish. None and i mean none of them, portray the type of narrow minded BS that you are putting forth.I have a tendency to think that your words may bring out the worst in people as they feel the need to refute your selfserving antagonistic attitude

Only if violence wasn't such a taboo, they would go through the same experiences as everyone else. 2 people would fight, both get hurt, realize it was pointless, and then in exhaustion, decide to be fair and open minded towards one another. They would realize that any aggressive behavior would put them back in that same place, so they only be aggressive to people who started it first

you have started a verbal war, exactly what is the difference???

I don't think most jews ever have such an experience and as such, become vindictive. The effects of this cascade down to all kinds of bad behavior. For instance, jews are immature with respect to fear. They fear death too much. This results in things like them not wanting to settle down with one person because it would mean their story would be told... just like if they were to die.

The more i read on the more disgusted i have become. Many people fear death, the Jewish community does not have an exclusive on this.
I wonder who will tell your story? and when all is said and done Krim, will you have learned to love and respect humanity?????

Thus, I come to the conclusion that jewish culture is fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the holocaust was just misplaced emnity against jewish culture. It wasn't right.... But how many jews got up on a soapbox and said "look here, we are decent people! What the heck is your problem? Tell me!" when all these sentiments were building up in germany? They probably did the same thing they always do. Ignore everyone outside of their group and act like they were just animals because they didn't adhere to jewish social norms. And oh my god don't even get me started on my father...

MISPLACED EMNITY!!!!!! congratualtions krim, you have just done the greatest injustice to thousands of people who have since passed on, and your forked tongue continues to spit upon their legacy.
Your father?? straiten up son and fly right, dont you even dare say a word against your father- Shame upon you

don't know if it is a fundamental part of the religion or not. The torah says things like gentile souls are lesser and they are subject to greater punishments than jews. It seems to me the tribal morality starts right there. I have heard jews say things like they must endure such discrimination because they have failed in their duties in some way. IMO if that is the case, it is because they do not teach effective outlets for their aggressive human nature and thus behave in worse ways than everyone else.

Geeze krim, why dont you just go ahead and dissect every religion, ethnic origin, nationality of every person on this planet, as you seem to be above everyone else. And while your at it, why dont you just call yourself god

As far as extended effects of the holocaust are concerned, I think understanding what happened and why would do wonders. Jews fear death too much, and therefore fear their story

You have just given an example of the extended effects of the Holocaust, with your derogatory remarks, hatred and contempt for the Jewish race and your inability to see beyond your own vainglorious view of yourself

#31 lemit

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 07:31 PM

Thanks, Pamela, for saying some things I'm too angry to say. If I could ban Kriminal99, I would.

Anything else I could say would be inflammatory, so I'll just shut up.

--lemit

#32 Boerseun

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:16 PM

Well, however offensive Krim's above post might be, he illustrates the reason why the holocaust happened in the first place, very well.

Yes, Krim - Jewish culture is inherently flawed. But not a single jot more or less than Christian or Muslim cultures are flawed. Why hate them?

Yes, Lrim, Jews are afraid of death. Once again, not a single jot more or less than Christians or Muslims fear death. Why hate them?

Having Jews in your family is no free ticket to your obvious prejudice. It's like the old racist saying "Heck, some of my best friends are black! But you know, blacks really suck..."

I see in your post a lot of generalizations and assumptions. And with that, Hitler was able to do what he did.

#33 enorbet2

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 03:02 AM

Greetz
Since this is ostensibly a Science forum and since I have great confidence that "a mind convinced against it's will, remains unconvinc-ed still" and how Free Speech actually does work and is not just "pie in the sky", I will refrain from polarizing with recriminations.

Kriminal99, I wonder just how big or small a sample you think you should require before assuming you know something about "all" of anything? Do you suppose for example that Albert Einstein fits your description of Americanized Jews? Was he an illogical snot? I am quite certain that you know more females than you know Jews so do you think you can generalize about all females? Obviously you can if you so choose but aren't you the least bit concerned as to what that says about your powers of deduction? your maturity? your judgment? your humanity?

If someone is feeding you this oversimplified tripe, they are feeding you poison and it will corrupt you as surely as believing 1 plus 1 equals 4, but with greater social consequences. There is a big difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorance can be cured while stupidity is to the bone. It would likely serve you well to do some serious reading on the subject of bigotry and intolerance and how it begins, unless you simply don't care how you are perceived or where your life is headed. There are plenty of fringe groups that will take in and take over a person who expresses such prejudice, and leave you swinging in the breeze once they've used you up for their agenda. Be careful.

I sincerely wish you well and hope you manage to rise above this myopic view to which you seem to subscribe.

#34 lawcat

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 03:23 AM

It's unthinkable in stable, peaceful, and prosperous times. But, it is not so unthinkable in times economic depravity, cultural defense necessity, and war. What the German State did in Europe was horrible because it was a powerful and organized machine that focused its resources on that singular goal. IT has happened before WWI, and after WWII, and it will happen again. People are easily driven to hate. It's a matter of information and leadership. Chose your information and leaders wisely.

As far as German people/nation, WWII proved quite the opposite of what their message was: they can be just as much animals as any other nation; they are just slightly better at it than some others. But hopefully those things will not be revived in Europe; nordic plunderings have been dormant for centuries.