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Fake repuation system


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#35 GAHD

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 04:49 PM

If someone tried to attribute a "bad" reputation to another person, it is almost as likely to make someone listen to that person more than they normally would. Badmouthing someone else is basically admitting you are afraid of what that person has to say, which is a good sign that they are actually right.

No... I patently disagree with this statement. If you hear from 3-4 people that "XX is crazy! He dumped 2L bottles of water on himself in my kitchen and said he need to be baptized in the 'holy light'. He even called me jesus while I was throwing him out the door!"
You are not going to listen any more to what that persan has to say than you would have before (unless you're into baptizing yourself in stranger's kitchens)

People attribute a good reputation to someone when that person see's with their own eyes that said person reasons objectively and fairly. The very fact that you are trying to convince a new person to accept someone as "having a good rep" before they can gauge for themselves is suspicious! Why would you need to if that person was going to come to that conclusion anyways?

it saves time? DO hyou really want to comb through 2000 posts by a user to see if they are in general 'a good source'?

Also "we" are not trying to do that(Hypography) the usesers who make hypography are the ones with that power.

So if a rep system must be used, it should have a clear and specific purpose that is valid and be designed for that purpose. Like you could have a ref meter showing how many references someone has provided or something, in case someone wanted to know who to go for to get more references.

I agree, how do you see writing the code for determining refrences? Shall we include a rating system on 'how good" the refrences are?

Moderators with rep power

I did explain the moderator thing. You guys are around each other more, and have more in common than everyone else does with each other, hence tribal morality. Your rep actions are going to be signifigantly different from normal user's rep actions, and are not representitive of anything signifigant that should be gauged by a reputation system.

So you'd prefer the cops just SHOT you for speeding, or driving the wrong way, rather than giving you a ticket?

Your right, I don't have statistics on people who left or anything like that. I have seen other analytical minded people attacked by mods and leave.

I think you mean "other people asked to provide some form of refrence material for supporting their beleifs, who left because they were unable to provide any such proof"



Further you seem to be advocating the use of Rhetoric as a method of proof: this is what allows any fool who understands nothing to appear to have won an argument while providing no real insight or concrete evidence.

#36 arkain101

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 07:37 PM

I don't understand how the color coding works.

According to my reputation storage, I have: 27601 point(s) total

Hovering over the greed squares [][][][][][][][]

Brings up a title "Name is a splendid one to behold"


Where as someone else with, 500 posts has more green dots and his title says:

"Name has much to be proud of"

Im not sure which one of us infact has the more points...:D
As I see it, his green items are superior to mine and my title is superior to his in meaning. :turtle: :shrug:


As far as I can tell this reputation system is NOT fake or corrupt, it is just plain hard for me to understand, and I can't recall ever taking notice to it anyway. I just read what the person has posted and places before me, and make opinions based on that.

This reminds me, I should remember to use the system more often.. I rarely do.

Its inspirational receiving those small messages. Here is some of the compliments I've been fortunate enough to receive. Thanks members. :beer:

-Good Post!
-Wow, impressive post Your explanation is coherent, on topic, and quite engaging! Kudos!
-Well put, and all-around excellent job in this thread
-Very nice! Have you checked out our computer arts social group?
-Nice gesture. We don't see enough of this.
-cool effort.
-cool idea, hope you keep it up. You even got the honor to be the author of the first thread -I ever nominated!
-Very, very well said.
-Keep it coming
-Harmonica's EVIL!!!
-brotherly conduct of the surfing standing gravity waves kind.
-very well spoken. very calm mannerism.
-Yes.
-well deserved
-Thanks for the insight.. and I agree.. I also appreciated reading it
-It reads good Arkain! well done so far
-Interesting question!
-Interesting and nicely started thread
-this is a good idea for a book.
-Beautiful
-Wow! Just wow! Absolutely wow! Thank you wow!
-Nice post!
-You are both a gentlemen and a scholar.

#37 InfiniteNow

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 07:41 PM

As far as I can tell this reputation system is fake or corrupt, it is just plain hard for me to understand, and I can't recall ever taking notice to it anyway.

Judging from your context and tone, I presume you meant, "this reputation system is not fake or corrupt, it is just plain hard for me to understand..." ?
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#38 freeztar

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 07:53 PM

This reminds me, I should remember to use the system more often.. I rarely do.


Well, there's the problem. :D

If it is not used by a majority of people, it does become "fake", or at least, not useful.

Go to your "my settings" and scroll down past your subscribed threads to see the positive rep I left you yesterday.

It's really a great system, but it only works if it is used!

So, this is good we can address this. Perhaps if Krim put in the effort to give pos and neg rep to the same equivalence that he gives disdain, this thread might never have occurred. :beer:

For example, Krim, give me a neg rep for this post. It will not bring down my 6 green bars. Why? Well, because I've got tons of pos rep. In order for the bars to change, you (or others) would have to give several neg reps to offset the pos reps.

In summary, the rep system is only "fake" if it is not used. :turtle:

#39 Boerseun

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 12:01 AM

Well, now...

I've been casually scanning this thread, and I couldn't really have been bothered to participate.

But upon reading some of Krim's objections, I have a feeling that he's somehow got the cat by the tail. And, it turns out, it might very well be the wrong cat, too.

Krim, here's the story:

The Rep System is not fake. Yet, it has shortcomings. You can paste a lot of incoherent drivel in your posts, and be positively repped for it by the people it makes sense to. The kind of people impressed by incoherent tripe will be in the minority here, hence their rep points will have less of an impact of positive or negative rep from a member with a high rep number. High-rep members have gotten to that point because in general, their postings have impressed more members who have an understanding of what this site is about - ("Hypo - Science for Everyone"). Based on the nature of Hypography, more members in general would have an appreciation for posts that follow the requirements and methodology of Science as a pursuit. Those who love drivel, will join drivel-friendly forums.

Yet, as I said, the system is not perfect. If you take members' rep counts over the years, it is more a statistical reflection on postings in general than anything else. I have received tons of rep points for making wisecracks that is totally unrelated to the issue at hand. That is hardly scientific, and hardly a reflection of my scientific insight into any particular matter.

But here's the crunch:

I have no idea what my rep power is, and I couldn't care less. I am a moderator, and I have never seen an instance where all moderators decide to "team up" on a member to neg-rep and infract him into oblivion. What normally happens, is that a post might be reported by a moderator, and the mod squad will debate in private as to the pro's and cons of said post. And the general consensus in 99% of the cases is merely to "keep an eye out for the transgressor". I have never seen the "teaming up" you accuse us of.

Also, I find your assertion about "most" of Craig's posts being fallacious to be a bit offensive. If you have a problem with Craig's posts, interact with them in the threads you fnd them in. I'm not saying Craig is always right, heck - he's certainly not omniscient. But a generalisation such as yours is just simply wrong.

But to cut a long story short, the rep system is definitely not perfect. No system is. It's up to you to decide whether your ego is strong enough to withstand the results of an imperfect system - or you can follow my approach and simply not care about it. It's been working fine for me for over four years now.
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#40 Jway

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 01:57 PM

I meant to bring this up last time I visited this site. This is issue that confuses me, and really is something I likely just desire simple clarification on.

I've read most every post in this thread. I think arkain101's post comes closest to my attitude with rep system.

Part of my 'bottom line' is I don't feel welcome on this site. The other part is, there are plenty of other places online that I enjoy that it doesn't matter that much to me how welcome I am here. Admittedly, if my rep was much higher here, I would likely come back, but say I was green (rather than red), I still don't see me visiting much more than I do.

I have no issue being transparent with my information in UCP that pertains to this. I have -4618 points. I think I got all those in first 5 weeks of being here. Am still not sure how I got them, but I do understand that some (perhaps majority) of my posts are the type that leave members here with negative impression of me. I think I get that, even while I don't fully understand it.

I've had 2 infractions here, both expired.
My "latest reputation received" goes back to the date I first posted on this site. I have:
- 4 red squares listed. 3 of these strike me as dislike, rather than in vein of logical fallacy. One of the 4 is from moderator who makes point that I do see, but I feel ignores context. At any rate, of the 4 it seems like one that I can understand why site member gave me neg rep.
- 5 green squares (Updated: See below). One by arkain101 with comment that says "these points go a long way." LOL. Not in my case.

I've been a bit bewildered by observation of more green than red, and no current infractions amounts to -4618 points. If it were like -11 points, I'd be less bewildered. But as it is a number that seems like it will take a decade to get back to green, I feel between bewildered and unwelcomed. I'm guessing for some people reading this, me feeling unwelcomed is a great thing.

I feel a bias against me as I post here. I'm a big boy. I can handle it. Part of me likes the red bars, wearing it like 'badge of honor.' But part of me sees it as something that regardless of what I post (I've contributed to News gallery), there is filter at work that says judge the character foremost, and the current post and it's points are to only be understood through that. Thus ad hom becomes rather easy (as argument against my points).

In the event I come back with desire to make worthy contribution to one of the many great threads on this site, I would like layperson understanding on the rep system in way that makes sense to me, such as:
- rep system doesn't really affect your status here as far as admin team views you. If you have no infractions, then you are generally in good standing. And thus, we desire for you to feel welcomed to post wherever you wish on this forum, but please follow our site rules. Thank you.
<OR>
- rep system does affect your status here. Admin team and long term members look to this as way to 'sum you up.' It is perhaps our best indicator and all posts you make will likely be weighted against your rep status by any member here who cares for administration of this site. Want to feel welcomed? Get good rep. Wanna get good rep? Follow the rules foremost, but post things that we want to hear about. Conform to our way of thinking and you'll be fine. If your rep is negative, then yes, you are not someone who is warmly welcomed.

I hope I haven't been too hard on you all in this post. There's really only one person on this site that I found unable to have civil discourse with and that person I now see as suspended. I feel I have much appreciation for site admins and most moderators. In fact, I'd like to publicly share appreciation for the following admin team members who I found to be helpful to me, even if not always "in my corner:"
- Sanctus
- GAHD
- theblackalchemist
- pamela
- likely more, but off-hand this is best I came up with
> Oh and then there's...
- Turtle!! - LOL - while writing this post Turtle gave me positive rep, so now I'm at plus 797 points.

> I literally went from red to green while typing this post. This one post. From -4618 points to +797 points. I'm still bewildered, but feeling a bit more welcomed. :phones:
(I could call this 'coincidence' but that would be gross understatement)

Thanks for reading,
Jway

P.S. I put in blue those parts that could be removed from / updated within the record, but felt best if they stay (a bit tongue-in-cheek) and are noted in alternate color, due to the update (from Turtle). I now have 6 green squares.

#41 Turtle

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 02:11 PM

I meant to bring this up last time I visited this site. This is issue that confuses me, and really is something I likely just desire simple clarification on.
...
> I literally went from red to green while typing this post. This one post. From -4618 points to +797 points. I'm still bewildered, but feeling a bit more welcomed. :)
(I could call this 'coincidence' but that would be gross understatement)

Thanks for reading,
Jway

P.S. I put in blue those parts that could be removed from / updated within the record, but felt best if they stay (a bit tongue-in-cheek) and are noted in alternate color, due to the update (from Turtle). I now have 6 green squares.


it is bewildering. :phones: we've written reams on the memes, modified the modes, recalibrated the calibars, ratcheted the ratchets, and in ways yet poorly understood, fiddled with the chaotic reputation of the cosmos.

welcome (back?) to the green revolution jayster.:doh: live long and prosper. :hihi:

whether we know it or not, the universe is laughing behind our backs. ;)

#42 freeztar

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 02:52 PM

Don't put too much weight on the rep system, Jway.

If I remember correctly, it was bumpy for you at first because of some religious posts that skirted with the site rules. I also remember offering to help you out with understanding the system and rules here. That offer still stands if you would like to send me a PM.

The rep system is not perfect. As Turtle mentions, we've tweaked the rep system many times over the years trying to make it as fair and balanced as possible. I think it's the best it has been right now, but there's always room for improvement so your feedback is appreciated.

Out of sincere curiousity, What makes you feel unwelcome here? Is it just the negative rep and the comments? Or is it something else?

We want everyone to feel welcome here, even if they are not popular with other members. Again, if there is anything I can do, let us know. :phones:

#43 Jway

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 07:32 PM

Don't put too much weight on the rep system, Jway.

If I remember correctly, it was bumpy for you at first because of some religious posts that skirted with the site rules. I also remember offering to help you out with understanding the system and rules here. That offer still stands if you would like to send me a PM.


My preference is to discuss it out here because it seems like community issue, more than say issue with just an isolated few. But if it means my rep is at stake, then PM might be better route. Since you are saying not to put too much weight in the rep system, then I just assume have discussion out here.

Having posts that skirt with site rules, and how that leads to -4000 points seems lopsided. I've reviewed by 110+ posts to date, and I think I found 5 to 10 that were in vein of "religious." I use your word, because I see that is how I am perceived, but IMO, it is not religious speak that is (overtly) affiliated with any particular religion. Let's go with 10 posts on the liberal side, and let's say then that 9% of my first posts here were ones that skirted with site rules. Not understanding how points are assessed, the -4000 seems lopsided. My infractions got me -2 points. So, comparing that to the larger number and it seems like you can never make it up, no matter how "good" you are.

But then today, I made up over 5000 points with one post that doesn't really feel that much different from the 91% of the other posts I had on this site in the early going.

To cap it off, and perhaps to my detriment, I don't regret my "religious" posts. If I could have rational person, who is open minded, go through and review those posts, perhaps context would matter on this "skirting the rules" claim you make, as it seems to me, honestly, that I was not skirting the rules in a way that is "out of the ordinary" and within context of philosophy and theology forums. But I do recognize that if I "push" this argument that I'm making in this paragraph, I stand to lose here on this site. For sure lose rep points, and possibly get infractions by people with itchy trigger fingers, that I see as coming from bias through the neg rep system.

Out of sincere curiousity, What makes you feel unwelcome here? Is it just the negative rep and the comments? Or is it something else?

We want everyone to feel welcome here, even if they are not popular with other members. Again, if there is anything I can do, let us know. :eek:


It's the neg rep system and the comments from those, plus the perceived weight (that I gave them) that had me feeling unwelcome. Perceived weight coming from -4000 points, and not understanding how that was arrived at. But as I review my neg rep comments, they are me having to deal with bias, rather than say accuracy or forum rules. And even if they were on forum rules, the weight accorded to the negative seemed grossly lopsided. Again, I had 5 green squares, 4 red squares, and I was far more in the negative than positive.

As I traced my early history here, I saw me after say 30 posts venturing into areas of the site where I thought I might be more comfortable (philosophy and theology). And to this moment, I truly believe I followed both site rules and guidelines for those areas. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on my take on this, but it is how I feel. That my infractions are expired and I have very few, makes me realize this wasn't a big deal as far as me moving forward on this site. But until today, the -4000 points seemed like reason why I might be hesitant on moving forward, and for possibly a long time to come.

With nature of philosophy and theology discussions, I'm thinking the rules could be more lax. IMO, this would help things. To have a place on site, where the rigid rule of "back up what you're saying" isn't so rigid. I'm not saying abandon the rule, I'm saying make it less rigid. I pride myself on backing up what I say, being honest about it, covering the bases, etc. But having to deal with the brute bias of an atheist in Theology forum, who seems to have "preaching" agenda in that area, and who can bust into ad hom and off topic rhetoric at just about any post, it can become confusing for people not familiar with culture here.

My sound bite response to all this (that I don't really favor) is if discussions of theology and philosophy aren't warmly welcomed, I would suggest shutting those areas off. It invites an "element" to the site, and that can spill over to areas that are less lax with site rules, i.e. Psychology.

Anyway, I'm still a bit hesitant about posting (which isn't a bad thing), I do feel more welcomed after making up 5000 points (magically) in one post today, but I'm still in place where other areas of the world wide web hold more appeal for me. I like coming here. I learn stuff each time. People seem respectful and considerate. So, it's perhaps now more a matter of preference than confusion of protocols here on this site (as it was earlier for me today), but what I've said in this post hopefully helps you all understand perspective of this 'newbie.'

Cheers,
J
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#44 Turtle

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 08:04 PM

My preference is to discuss it out here because it seems like community issue, more than say issue with just an isolated few.

But then today, I made up over 5000 points with one post that doesn't really feel that much different from the 91% of the other posts I had on this site in the early going.
...
Anyway, I'm still a bit hesitant about posting (which isn't a bad thing), I do feel more welcomed after making up 5000 points (magically) in one post today, but I'm still in place where other areas of the world wide web hold more appeal for me. I like coming here. I learn stuff each time. People seem respectful and considerate. So, it's perhaps now more a matter of preference than confusion of protocols here on this site (as it was earlier for me today), but what I've said in this post hopefully helps you all understand perspective of this 'newbie.'

Cheers,
J


one technical aspect, the neg reps count ~ 1/2 the positives.

now some technimagical points: :magic:
beyond that, the effect of a particular member repping you, call it rep power, is a calculated result of among other things the number of posts and rep they received. although new changes have balanced things, the change does/did carry over what went before. long story short i have, justly so or not, acquired a grip of power & can perform "magic" that few others can. do i deserve it? :clue: let's just say it's debated. :hihi: anyway, i liked your post today as well as several recent & i didn't like those red boxes next to them because they struck me as dissonant & since i could do something about it i did. didn't hurt to hurry me either to work my spell that i saw you were posting to this thread and figured i knew jolly well why. :D

now don't any of the rest of you blackguards go thinkn' i gone soft or i'll have yer gizzards to sup. :eek: one thing's for sure here, a little sense of humor goes a long way. now if you pardon me i'm late for my saturday megalomaniac therapy group . :D :doh:
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#45 freeztar

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 08:37 PM

Here's a couple links for a better understanding of the rep system and how it works:

http://hypography.co...html#post115253

http://hypography.co...-and-downs.html

#46 Jway

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 08:50 PM

Thanks Turtle and freeztar.

I thought there was correlation between my posting earlier and you adding positive rep, as it was a little too coincidental. At any rate, it's nice to get the bump from anyone who has the power and who can be a bit light hearted about things.