Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Browns gas


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 07:26 PM

I looked at several threads about using browns gas as a supplement to give a car better gas mileage but it seems no sure yes or no to this mileage booster was given. The Internet is full of adds to use browns gas generated on board you car as you drive to give huge mileage boosts. To me it looks a lot like perpetual motion. Has any definitive answers been found for this? Steven Harris seems to the main proponent of this idea, he has impressive credentials, is he on the up and up?

#2 modest

modest

    Creating

  • Members
  • 4959 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 08:17 PM

It is perpetual motion.

Using energy from the car to produce hydrogen costs the vehicle useful energy. Putting that energy back into the engine in the form of the hydrogen you produced is completely pointless. You're bound to loose efficiency in all the steps needed. Gasoline is already an efficient fuel. Why would you use it to make electricity then use the electricity for electrolysis that makes excess heat then use the electrolysis product as fuel for the engine? I don't get it. :(

Did you notice if any of the websites making these claims addressed this?

~modest

#3 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 09:34 PM

It is perpetual motion.

Using energy from the car to produce hydrogen costs the vehicle useful energy. Putting that energy back into the engine in the form of the hydrogen you produced is completely pointless. You're bound to loose efficiency in all the steps needed. Gasoline is already an efficient fuel. Why would you use it to make electricity then use the electricity for electrolysis that makes excess heat then use the electrolysis product as fuel for the engine? I don't get it. :(

Did you notice if any of the websites making these claims addressed this?

~modest


A couple seemed to be saying the browns gas improved combustion enough to make gas mileage claims but most didn't give any specifics other then huge gas mileage. I'm taking a real beating on this trying to explain why it's not possible then you google it and your see hundreds of links to people saying huge gas mileage increases. Hard to get through to them. So far I've seen no sites that counter this stuff at all it seems they are getting a free ride scamming people.

#4 modest

modest

    Creating

  • Members
  • 4959 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:01 PM

A couple seemed to be saying the browns gas improved combustion enough to make gas mileage claims but most didn't give any specifics other then huge gas mileage.


Interesting that the same people who claim HHO doesn't explode also claim it "improves combustion". It does exactly opposite things depending on which extraordinary claim is being made :(

I'm taking a real beating on this trying to explain why it's not possible then you google it and your see hundreds of links to people saying huge gas mileage increases.


Probably all written by the same person. Someone who sells the HHO generators perhaps.

Hard to get through to them. So far I've seen no sites that counter this stuff at all it seems they are getting a free ride scamming people.


Trust the experts:

Brown's Gas information

Notice they're not trying to sell anything.

~modest

#5 modest

modest

    Creating

  • Members
  • 4959 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:20 PM

That last link was geared toward the science of HHO. For busting the myth, I found:

Water Car Test - HHO Shows Why You Can't Run Cars on Water - Popular Mechanics

Where Popular Mechanics tests one with a vehicle - which of course fails spectacularly.

~modest

#6 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:01 PM

How about the water supplemented six stroke motor?

Six stroke engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Crower six stroke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

#7 modest

modest

    Creating

  • Members
  • 4959 posts

Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:53 PM

How about the water supplemented six stroke motor?

Six stroke engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Crower six stroke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I'm confused. Do you mean a six stroke motor using HHO? Like supplementing Brown's gas for water in a six stroke? Or, do you mean to compare a six stroke to HHO? Or, perhaps you mean just to comment on the extra efficiency of a six stroke.

I will say HHO is diametrically different from a six stroke in that the six stroke uses waste heat to increase efficiency whereas an HHO generator takes its energy directly from the electrical system of the car (basically from the car's fuel).

~modest

#8 Dr Kingslee Spurling

Dr Kingslee Spurling

    Thinking

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 03:25 AM

why use a cylinder type engine with heaps of moving parts when you can have down to 2 moving parts and perfect balance no need for oil and fuel because water and hydrocloride are reversable reactions when split with dc current and with a correctly engineered system you can get up to 2 million % efficient go to the soilinspection site to download the doc

#9 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:27 AM

I'm confused. Do you mean a six stroke motor using HHO? Like supplementing Brown's gas for water in a six stroke? Or, do you mean to compare a six stroke to HHO? Or, perhaps you mean just to comment on the extra efficiency of a six stroke.

I will say HHO is diametrically different from a six stroke in that the six stroke uses waste heat to increase efficiency whereas an HHO generator takes its energy directly from the electrical system of the car (basically from the car's fuel).

~modest



Sorry, I changed horses in mid stream, I was thinking about how silly the whole run your car on water thing is then it occurred to me that there was an engine whose power is supplemented by water, the six stroke motor! No silly HHO required and a real efficiency increase.

#10 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:32 AM

why use a cylinder type engine with heaps of moving parts when you can have down to 2 moving parts and perfect balance no need for oil and fuel because water and hydrocloride are reversable reactions when split with dc current and with a correctly engineered system you can get up to 2 million % efficient go to the soilinspection site to download the doc


How about providing some specifics on that.

#11 Dr Kingslee Spurling

Dr Kingslee Spurling

    Thinking

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 09:45 AM

here is how it all works
1 amp for 1 hour makes 6 litres of gas at 1 bar
1 litre of water makes 2039 litres of water gas
1 cc of gas has an expansion ratio of 1729/1
combustion temperatures: 6000 deg C to 600,000 deg C for water
thus proves the alternator can supply adequate power to make gas to burn and recirculate
soilinspection

#12 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 10:12 AM

here is how it all works
1 amp for 1 hour makes 6 litres of gas at 1 bar
1 litre of water makes 2039 litres of water gas
1 cc of gas has an expansion ratio of 1729/1
combustion temperatures: 6000 deg C to 600,000 deg C for water
thus proves the alternator can supply adequate power to make gas to burn and recirculate
soilinspection


No, it takes more energy to make browns gas than you get from burning it. You can't get something for nothing. What you are proposing is no different than using a battery to run an electric motor to turn a generator to charge the battery. Can't work, perpetual motion is not possible.:doh:

#13 Dr Kingslee Spurling

Dr Kingslee Spurling

    Thinking

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 10:40 AM

toyota said it invalidated the 2nd law of themodynamics it only needs headlight current to make the gas which turns back into water or hydrocloride after detanation with a spark, this causes heat electrolysis in a fuel cell makes the gas, you circulate everything in a sealed loop with a gas noble gas, download it and work it out

#14 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 11:23 AM

toyota said it invalidated the 2nd law of themodynamics it only needs headlight current to make the gas which turns back into water or hydrocloride after detanation with a spark, this causes heat electrolysis in a fuel cell makes the gas, you circulate everything in a sealed loop with a gas noble gas, download it and work it out


You are talking nonsense, you cannot get more out of the gas than you put into it, not even most of what you put into it. At every step of the process you loose power.

#15 Dr Kingslee Spurling

Dr Kingslee Spurling

    Thinking

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 11:57 AM

why do you think i have a doctorate in industrial process control get your calculator we will work through this this calculation is for an engine that displaces twice its capacity per revolution and has been proven to be 73% eficient as i was a design after i had finished my design the same but had a compression stroke the displacement is 1 litre we want to turn the engine at 3,000 revs so we displace 6,000 litres of gas out of the exaust. So we take the expansion ratio of 1729 and divide that into 6,000 gives you 3.47litres of water gas which is a current flow of approxamately 40 amps to produce the whole effect. it all in the water powered engine download on the soilinspection site

#16 Moontanman

Moontanman

    Unobtainium...

  • Members
  • 8622 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 12:51 PM

why do you think i have a doctorate in industrial process control get your calculator we will work through this this calculation is for an engine that displaces twice its capacity per revolution and has been proven to be 73% eficient as i was a design after i had finished my design the same but had a compression stroke the displacement is 1 litre we want to turn the engine at 3,000 revs so we displace 6,000 litres of gas out of the exaust. So we take the expansion ratio of 1729 and divide that into 6,000 gives you 3.47litres of water gas which is a current flow of approxamately 40 amps to produce the whole effect. it all in the water powered engine download on the soilinspection site


Look Dr. I don't care if you are Einstein you cannot change the laws of nature. What you are proposing is no different than using a battery to run a motor to turn a generator to charge the battery. It's just another way to show perpetual motion and perpetual motion is not possible. For your idea to work you have to add energy somewhere along the line.

#17 modest

modest

    Creating

  • Members
  • 4959 posts

Posted 23 August 2008 - 01:55 PM

why do you think i have a doctorate in industrial process control get your calculator we will work through this this calculation is for an engine that displaces twice its capacity per revolution and has been proven to be 73% eficient as i was a design after i had finished my design the same but had a compression stroke the displacement is 1 litre we want to turn the engine at 3,000 revs so we displace 6,000 litres of gas out of the exaust. So we take the expansion ratio of 1729 and divide that into 6,000 gives you 3.47litres of water gas which is a current flow of approxamately 40 amps to produce the whole effect. it all in the water powered engine download on the soilinspection site


No one is saying water doesn't have the available energy to run a vehicle. You missed the point entirely. Liberating the hydrogen from water costs energy. Water is not readily usable as a source of chemical energy. As a Dr. and someone who graduated middle school, you should know this. And, you should recognize it is the problem. MTM made this abundantly clear.

~modest