Life elsewhere? Who cares?

[alxian]

this i think will be my first reply to anything tinny has written

 

a. And who knows whether they would be interested to learn to communicate with us?

 

any species able to communicate with itself will undoubtedly want to communicate with other forms of life. only humans and a select other animal species on this planet would destroy an alien without provocation, destroying avenues toward more resources and evolution, either mingled or simply symbiotic

 

b. your absolutely correct that the chances of another planet just like ours to support the same kind of life we have here is very low

 

incorrect, science has stated categorically that life does not have to be form live or die within a stars LHZ, any planet or system capable of supporting a solvent and volatile energy conversion thru chemical means can spawn life. the only other decisive criteria is that there be a wide range of chemicals to allow that initial diversity, after life has taken hold natural biological processes will generate both complex compounds and simpler compounds than those life used to source the energy for their metabolisms.. i.e. life leaches carbon compounds through respiration (although this generally requires oxygen which isn't abundant) which leads to gases, which lead to atmospheres. they also create very complex compounds like proteins, carapaces bones structures various acids fats etc. all life needs is that basic solvent.. the initiator of chemical energy release from volatile chemical compounds.. of course this is a simplistic evolutionist view where i ignore the true nature of how complex molecules (pre life) coalesced into membranous microbes. science still has a ways to go. but the goo theory makes sense, you have hundreds of different compounds bubbling away changing state eventually those globules will segregate certain chemicals from certain others forming barriers through which the energy transfer becomes vectored, even more energy will be required to pass the barrier and like a sift complex chemicals will get trapped. its the study of these compounds that will lead science to that birth of such life forms which at that level are simply bags of chemicals transferring compounds thru a barrier.. not too sexy but effective energy sumps.. the second major discovery will be how monerans became sexual or if life post oxygen atmosphere gave birth simultaneously to so many varieties of life that hunter and prey entered into relationships that at some point became more symbiotic (mitochondria and most living cells).. out of my bounds minutes ago

 

c. not surprising though. it's well rehearsed by atheists.

 

that is ignorance, you just said all scientist researching evolution past present and future must be atheists.. or that atheists can believe in creationism.. either way both are silly.. this kind of thinking will and should get organized religion (based on little more than the fabrications of the church) banned on the grounds that people practicing it are obviously too stupid to live in society and will hurt themselves and others should their silly doctrine be taken seriously.. that is over proven scientific fact and generally accepted theory

 

d. the only specialty of humans according to religion is free will.

 

i take especial offence to this statement. besides physiological advances that humans have evolved how can you even think free will (if there is such a thing) is our only evolution over animals???

 

Here’s a fact, chimps are our closest relatives.. obobos.. they as animals are more closely related to snails than to humans. think of it like a podium finish (or apocalypse(xmen)) we are as far beyond them as they are beyond their closest competition. which while i deplore the human ego says quite a bit, and belies the evolutions of other animals not of our heritage, so humans are top dog.. Scientifically, that’s not to say chimps are next in line far from it, birds are smarter than chimps, dolphins are hecka brilliant, and whale though as good as cold blooded are not too dim. problem is you are talking about individuals here, and ignoring the greatest source of intelligence in the animal kingdom, DNA and instinct, insects express hive intelligence far exceeding anything any chimp or dog or individual dim human could achieve.. Gram for gram bees excel with brains smaller than course sand.

 

Furthermore you ignore human evolution, why are we the top dogs? is it free will? F### no, its all about civilization.. or hive mind like the bees. for a while now I’ve been contemplating how to design a robot intelligence. and daily such simple things as : humans are not individuals by design anymore, most of our personalities are formed from snippets of the thousands of people we've encountered and all the experiences that have marked our development. basically, humans live in groups, many wide varied groups, groups composed of individuals, you as a human must understand at least to a point the mind of everyone in the groups that influence you (or that you influence) in rare cases people assume those personalities they have created to deal with that other person. in other more extreme cases people generate personalities without any stimulus.. i wonder is Heinlein was right.. if a human is left to grow up outside of a human society if his re-integration would end in disaster from the inability to generate those inner personalities.. or if humans are hard wired thru evolution to do this.. if a human kept apart from society would become schizophrenic.. Generating personalities as any person would.

 

But I’ve strayed from the topic... free will the idea that its every human for himself. Idiocy. Leave a pink baby to fend for himself and he will die. Only after a good couple dozen years in society can humans remain productive after leaving the nest. with exception of course.. But that’s meant to say only exceptional people can leave a society as a young adult or earlier and survive alone in the wilderness... the survival rate would be near nil. (Compared to the odds that person would have if he stayed in society).

 

Thus free will is not a gift its a curse, cooperative advancements like language and writing and the ability to theorize the non existent and communicate it is in fact humanities advantage over the animals.. and that is to say some animals.. other animals boggle our minds with there demonstrated ability to coordinate minute efforts into grand constructions (termites and other such creatures)

 

e. And so, by being religious, humans need to master science and technology.

 

Why? Isn’t the core of modern church religion to debunk science? or were you saying that that should be the way of things?

 

science and religion can coexist, so long as it is understood that the further science progresses the fewer mysteries can be attributed to superluminal intelligences=energy beings=god(s) (i joke)

 

f. But it would also be the case that humans are responsible to probe the universe to spread the message

 

which in your opinion is what? the majority of humanity can settle on one message? humanity has found a common voice? or only those who can speak should have the rights to the content of the human message?

 

g. What I was thinking of was the 'randomness' of genetic mutation

 

there is no randomness to mutation/evolution.. or are you an atheist/ignorant? (i did not just equate atheism to ignorance, what i did was say that either fulfils the statement randomness mutation by ignoring that its gods work, and that its a manner by which a species perfects itself based on its prior configuration present configuration and possible best configuration. if it weren't for inbreeding... (not that all inbreeding and the subsequent strengthening of diseased DNA is ever intentional)

 

h. Yes, we would first establish a system of common understanding based on numbers and math

 

which generally is done using primes. Primes can be calculated by living organisms and therefore will denote substantial evolution in organisms that can successfully calculate primes and factors with great efficiency.. Just watch some mathematicians go at it.. (Attempts to remove that mental picture from brain.. failed.. *shudders*)

 

once mathematical communication has been established its easy to generate a common syntax from that or attempt to translate that understanding into language, which has its origin in memory recall.

 

i. There is nothing RANDOM about the evolutionary process.

 

you get a cookie.

The most random part of genetic mutation is that of viruses. They have corrupted our DNA quite a bit.. so much so that not long ago scientists said that we require a lot of those mutations.. Later though science said that all the junk DNA caused by epidemic infections is in fact useless junk and we should endeavor to purge it. a happy chapter in my book if i ever get around to it. We’ll all be much healthier and industries will implode.. so technically such an advance would be a bad thing. heck we could even live a lot longer.. Overpopulation scares would rise again, the economy would tank.. never mind the whole thing

 

j. Too much height or weight would not work because of physics

 

incorrect...evolution has little to do with our notions of physics and more to do with energy. the more energy in a system the bigger the animals. if you have fewer higher order predators they will be bigger, if you have an over abundance of plants and terrain so too will your prey species be bigger. Reduce the available vegetation and you grazer will shrink in size (population), shrink the habitats and they will shrink in size.

 

Again you say but eventually animals would get too large to support themselves. and i'll say land accounts for what fraction of the LHZ of earth (to use an astronomy term for terrestrial life)? its even more common in the water, blue whales (which i don't believe are the biggest animals to have lived on our planet) and whale sharks are very huge, why? because there are so few large predators these days.. not enough? you're right.. there is an over abundance of food for them to prey on. should the sea become too salty for krill larger animals would soon die off from starvation. which isn't so bad these days because as i said besides them only the still yet to be discovered giant squid could prey on the krill.. but even then that’s a stretch.. i'd sooner believe giant squid would have an incredibly rich anaerobic dinner plate at the bottom and just above the bottom (that we have yet to discover.. even though they may be the oldest creatures on earth) than GS feeds on schools of fish and us and russky nuclear and lighter class subs..

 

k. so how do you exchange information between them? those maths stuff are only statements. you can't ask their 'name' for example.

 

Sagan is a god sure.. Orson Scott Card is far too underrated. i'm not going to say all life will be based on DNA but at 4 base units its double the processing power than binary code right of the bat. Getting an alien who codes DNA to think (as easily as) to learn how to speak binary to a computer? yes .. that sounds like the best yet excuse for an intergalactic war.. I’d find it a high insult.. Now consider that their are not just four but 20 amino acids.. gods so many.. a 20 bit processing system.. i don't even think qubit processing was going to go so high at first.. then consider a creature that utilized all 20 amino acids in its DNA... instead of a helix it would be more like the fifth element many strands bounds together.. or dozens of chromosomal grouping.. p q r s t u v w x y z (2 each) or any other combination.. just a hexadecimal base pair creature could be millions of times more advanced than us with as much matter.. or perhaps again i'm over simplifying

[lindagarrette]

the only specialty of humans accoring to religion is free will. ETs might be more intelligent or have indentical physique, but with no free will, they are not special. still animalistic.

Not so. Many religions, including sects of Christianity, attribute freee will to God only. Also, humans are animals and there is no "special" in nature, there just is.

[Fishteacher73]

 

j. Too much height or weight would not work because of physics

 

incorrect...evolution has little to do with our notions of physics and more to do with energy. the more energy in a system the bigger the animals. if you have fewer higher order predators they will be bigger, if you have an over abundance of plants and terrain so too will your prey species be bigger. Reduce the available vegetation and you grazer will shrink in size (population), shrink the habitats and they will shrink in size.

 

Again you say but eventually animals would get too large to support themselves. and i'll say land accounts for what fraction of the LHZ of earth (to use an astronomy term for terrestrial life)? its even more common in the water, blue whales (which i don't believe are the biggest animals to have lived on our planet) and whale sharks are very huge, why? because there are so few large predators these days.. not enough? you're right.. there is an over abundance of food for them to prey on. should the sea become too salty for krill larger animals would soon die off from starvation.

 

While size has its imeadiate advantages, (lack of predation), a large animal requires large amounts of energy. This makes them less adaptable to environmental shifts because the energy demand is too high if things get sticky. Nature has tinkered w/ size and for the most part moderate size has the best odds. Big enough to avoid a good deal of predation, but small enough to not require the large dietary needs of the "big boys".

[emessay]

http://www.geocities.com/ir_emessay/

 

Human Consciousness and Life itself is more than E=mc2 , even ALL UNIVERSE we calculated it.........

 

Whether we're freely to question "God Imaging System" or "Alien Imaging System" , we must define exactly : WHAT IS MEANT OF LIFE and finally why do we have to zoom "OUR SELF CONSCIOUSNESS" ????