Is Organic Farming Feasible??

[Racoon]

... on a large worldwide scale?

 

Or have we become to dependent on fertilizers and pesticides?

 

Wouldn't a consciouss shift towards organic methods of farming be necessary in avoiding polluting ourselves out of existence and mutating harmful insects into chemical resistent monsters?

 

Not to be parlayed into a GMO debate, but is internationally supported Organic farming a feasible possibility?

 

Organic products have been gaining in popularity and discussion, but there are still those unscrupulous manufacturers who dupe a large portion of uneducated grocery shoppers.

 

[InfiniteNow]

There are other members on this site more versed than I in the ways of farming and horticulture, but I believe it is not presently feasible, but easily could be. We have survived and mass produced foods (beef, pork, poultry, and all manner of fruits and veggies) and it's become part of how we eat and how we survive, so it will not change overnight. It's not feasible now, but a middle ground is absolutely possible, and from that the balance would much more easily tilt toward healthier production and growing methods.

 

Even if you can't do organic, at least do local. Enough people do this and the globe itself becomes that which is local.

 

Even a 1000 gallon bucket begins to be filled by a single drop.

[Michaelangelica]

I think it is feasible now.

 

Once you get dependent on synthetic fertilisers and pesticides you are stuck with them.

 

If you battle on for a few years using biological controls and targeted organic pesticide use, you eventually loose your dependence on blanket non-biodegradable-pesticide use.

 

We throw most of our best fertiliser (human waste) away.

So too organic fertilisers will eventually build up the micro flora in your soil so that within a few years your need for fertilisers will be almost nil

 

Good Organic resources on the net include the Ozzie Permaculture Forums and in England The Henry Doubleday Research Association. In the USA, Rodale have excellent publications

[Cedars]

We could abandon fertilizer/pesticide/herbisides but there will be a cost.

 

Lower productions for sure. There are many marginal farmlands whos output is directly related to the use of these products.

 

Lower production will put some farms out of business.

 

Higher prices at the store due to reduced crop yields.

 

Availablity factors for some crops. (winter crops from areas such as california being gone due to their dependence on the above).

 

There are also the factors of all the foods we ship as aid are excess. We are not going to deprive our own of food (I would hope), to feed other struggling nations.

 

What would be a better answer is reduction of the use of these things. I think it is the bigger farms more than the smaller farms that are guilty of excessive use. When planning for crop plantings, its just a given to purchace x- amount of these things per acre and spread them accordingly, whether it is required or not. But there are crops which need herbicides regardless, such as corn. It is amazing the yield loss on a field that hasnt been sprayed for weeds. And crop rotation is a key part of maintaining healthy soils, so you cant just grow corn in this 100 acre field, year after year, reducing the need for herbicides, because you will lose on yield the 3rd year (maybe the 2nd depending on the existing soil nutrients). So you increase the amounts of ferts and pesticides to compensate for the decrease in soil nutrients and increase in corn bores (a worm that burrows into the ears of corn). There is also another insect that chews on the root of the corn plant causing it to fall over but its name escapes me now (cut worm maybe?). These two insects are devestating to corn growers. And it seems there will be an increase in the corn plantings with ethanol production demands increasing.

 

In the past there has been great effort on the part of MN to educate farmers on reducing the dependence on these chemicals. Has it been perfect? No. But it has reduced the flowages into rivers and ground waters significantly via education, zoning (not allowing feed lots along drainage routes and manure recovery), set aside programs such as CRP (conservation reserve program, and RIM- reserve program).

 

Now the focus probably should be moved towards the private homeowners responsiblity. Example: Right now a very large lake near me has problems with fertilizer runoff creating weed blooms. There are no farms around this lake, its all homeowners with their golf course lawns using ferts/herb/pesticide. I am not sure the current issues with runoff are as impacted by farming, as they are by homeowners striving for this golf course setting and their reckless use of these products.

 

Home - RefuseToUseChemlawn.org

 

Beyond Pesticides

[Michaelangelica]

We could abandon fertilizer/pesticide/herbisides but there will be a cost.

 

Lower productions for sure. There are many marginal farmlands whos output is directly related to the use of these products.

 

Lower production will put some farms out of business.

 

Higher prices at the store due to reduced crop yields.

[/url]

"lower production" initially but not after 3 or so years; "lower production" is often fertiliser company propaganda. Anyway who is going to be able to afford Oil based fertilisers in the future?

Certain trace element deficiencies will probably not all, or maybe ever, be solved by organics. However I think it is possible to create a soil that is self sustaining- fertiliser wise- after a few years. You need a lot of organic matter of all kinds

The Terra preta concept shows than soil can be helped to create itself.

Once you start being dependent on chemical fertilisers you always will be.

 

Here (in Sydney) we throw our best fertiliser several miles out to sea. (human wastes).

The local council makes a organic mix called "Mary Mix" after one of the council workers "Mary" (who smells):shrug: .

It is a mix of treated sewerage and seaweed. They use it on Council gardens. When I tried to buy/obtain some the local engineer said he would love to give it to me but the Council was afraid that someone might get sick from the sewrage and sue them.

Why are we so anal about what comes out of our own fundament!

I have little biology or environmental soil science but the ignorance 'out-there' about the web of life is astounding.

(Queensland voters (not the brightest- Qld., known here as the "Deep North") rejected a Council plan for recycled water- the opponents said you would get water from toilets and the morgue!!??)

 

This came up today. Usually grants of this kind go to mainstream farmers

Organic farming award

 

By Kim Honan

 

Tuesday, 12/12/2006

 

An agricultural scholarship designed to fund educational and professional development opportunities for farmers - and worth a cool $5,500 - has been awarded to a family committed to organic farming on the mid-north coast of NSW.

Organic farming award - 12/12/2006

 

also

The only TV gardening programme and magazine still surviving in Oz is now totally organic (ABC Garden Show)

 

 

--

[Cedars]

"lower production" initially but not after 3 or so years; "lower production" is often fertiliser company propaganda. Anyway who is going to be able to afford Oil based fertilisers in the future?

Certain trace element deficiencies will probably not all, or maybe ever, be solved by organics. However I think it is possible to create a soil that is self sustaining- fertiliser wise- after a few years. You need a lot of organic matter of all kinds

The Terra preta concept shows than soil can be helped to create itself.

Once you start being dependent on chemical fertilisers you always will be.

 

--

 

 

Its not that terra preta isnt a good concept, its the magnatude that it would be needed to be employed to achieve significant crop production (the thread is world wide scale). Heres the number of acres in planted fields in Kansas alone:

 

>State Statisticsl Report R:cropaug

 

Roughly 19million acres.

 

One of the factors in terra preta is earthworms (if I remember right from the thread). Heres some figures on the reduction of the numbers of earth worms when different types of tillage are used:

 

Undesirable consequences of soil tillage

 

Chisel plowing has been promoted here since the mid 70s. I know farmers who tried it and abandoned it due to crop reductions. Thats not to say it wont work for every single farm but it didnt work with an acceptable crop yield scale for farms near me.

 

Any soil that grows crops well, grows non-crop plants (weeds) even better.

 

Keep in mind erosion which includes soils lost via winds. Some years, some places can lose 3 inches of topsoils due to winds alone.

 

Runoff is a huge issue in some areas. Heres one article talking about the issue of runoff in the Minnesota River in MN. Now the goal of the page is reduced runoff contributing to sediments in the river:

 

Sediment Problems and Solutions for the Minnesota River

 

 

Human waste is used in some areas around here. It is treated because of the disease factor. I cannot remember the process used, but the process is not 100%. A news program did some testing on this a few years back and the possiblity of farmers contracting disease via this product is not as low as I had imagined. Human waste is a marginal fert. We eat too many things that do not aid plant growth. The meat we eat lowers the quality of human waste as a fert.

 

 

Additionally, I'm not sure you comprehend the scope of insect/parasite infestation on croplands.

 

I am not saying that there are not ways to reduce the various inorganic processes used, and changes in other farming methods that would contribute to an all around healthy soil. Consumers, given an equal choice would buy organic foods in higher volume if they were offered at market at a competitive price. Its not cheaper food because of lower crop yield and labor intensity vs other methods, as I understand it.

 

Farming is not simply a "grow it on good soil and all your problems are solved" issue.

[Michaelangelica]

Its not that terra preta isnt a good concept, its the magnatude that it would be needed to be employed to achieve significant crop production

Additionally, I'm not sure you comprehend the scope of insect/parasite infestation on croplands.

 

I am not saying that there are not ways to reduce the various inorganic processes used, and changes in other farming methods that would contribute to an all around healthy soil. Consumers, given an equal choice would buy organic foods in higher volume if they were offered at market at a competitive price. Its not cheaper food because of lower crop yield and labor intensity vs other methods, as I understand it.

 

Farming is not simply a "grow it on good soil and all your problems are solved" issue.

Gee cedars,

I'll bet not too many people pick an argument with you at the pub!

 

1.

insect/parasite infestation

There are any number of organic ways of managing agricultural pests. In fact there are companies that contract to do just that.using predator species and timed, intelligent uses of organic pesticides. There are many pesticides that are effective, kill only target species and don't become an environmental problem for our great-great-grandchildren. neem, pyrethrum (natural) and quassia are a few that come to mind

To give some examples of organic pest control:

The first house I bought had root-knot-nematodes in the soil. I could grow nothing. I was told I would have to sterilise the soil with methyl bromide. I found a Rodale publication that suggested using sugar and lots of mulch. I did and the problem went away. I later discovered that the predator of nematodes was a fungus like creature that thrived with sugar and the dampness of the mulch.

 

Many organic farmers used to collect dead caterpillars and put them in warm sweet water. They would then spray this on the fields. No caterpillars. It was found that they were making a culture off Bacillis thungerensis, a bacteria that kills caterpillars. It is now marketed here as "Dipel"

Bt has now been genetically engineered into cotton plants so that cotton no longer uses the massive amounts of pesticides they used to.

I could go on -name a pest

 

2

terra preta its the magnitude that it would be needed

For it to work for global cooling at all it needs to be adopted on a massive scale. it is not the only way of farming but it does have some insights.Especially into the living dynamics of the soil. Strictly speaking it is probably not organic. It does show that we can reduce use of NPK Chemical fertilisers dramatically over a few years of clever soil management. It shows we can be a lot smarter, than we presently are, about our farming/gardening practices.

 

3 Not enough organic fertilisers.

We throw out so much organic material, paper, kitchen scraps, human wastes, animal wastes. Most end up at the tip producing anaerobic methane.

With peak oil production almost here, we will not be able to afford chemical fertilisers in the future. (Personally I can't see what is too wrong with chemical fertilisers except for total dependence, high solubility, interference with soil micro-organisms, and salinity problems)

 

It is interesting to note some of the wrong-headed advice US agricultural experts have given natives in central and southern America. For example one group always cut, but left, most weeds in situ. When US agriculture advisers destroyed all weeds soil fertility and crop production dropped.

Small hillside fields were amalgamated and ploughed resulting in crop failures and erosion. The old 2,000YO methods were more appropriate for the area.

 

Monoculture suits agri-business but it also suits pests. Many insects have their own birth control in place, depending on the amount of food available.

Imagine Adam and Eve Bugs joy at the sight of a million acres of wheat!. In China they have tried growing a row of rye, then barley then wheat etc.; so if bugs do get into a row they do not reproduce as much and can be contained easier

 

4 Worms.

Worms are important but not just the wriggly ones you can see. If you joined up all the worms (nemadode family) in a square meter of land they would stretch to the moon, maybe Mars and back We have only named 10% of them so far. As for knowing what they do well we are as ignorant as. . . ???

The earth/soil is a dynamic, complex ecosystem. That the mere addition of NPK creates soil fertility is such a simplistic parody of the truth to be laughable.

 

5 Now I will go and read all your links and wait for the next onslaught!

michael

 

--PS I must admit I do not undersatnd why organic food has to be dearer. In S France many herbs and vegies are grown organically, mainly because the French are too mean to buy chemicals. High quality fruit, vegies and herbs grown locally and sold in local markets are not dear.

[Racoon]

Wonderful posts and discussion Cedars and Micheal.

 

Here is a nice study that demonstrates that perhaps organic growing will actually increase yields some years.

 

Organic Farming can Feed The World!

 

Sustainable Agriculture Farming Systems project (SFAS) at UC, Davis.

An ongoing long-term comparison study, SFAS is an interdisciplinary project that compares conventional farming systems with alternative production systems that promote sustainable agriculture.

 

The study examines four farming systems that differ in crop rotation design and material input use: a 2-year and a 4-year rotation conventional system, an organic and a low-input system.

 

Results from the first 8 years of the project show that the organic and low-input systems had yields comparable to the conventional systems in all crops which were tested - tomato, safflower, corn and bean, and in some instances yielding higher than conventional systems (Clark, 1999a). Tomato yields in the organic system were lower in the first three years, but reached the levels of the conventional tomatoes in the subsequent years and had a higher yield during the last year of the experiment (80 t/ha in the organic compared to 68 t/ha in the conventional in 1996). Corn production in the organic system had a higher variability than conventional systems, with lower yields in some years and higher in others. {/B]

 

 

 

Some good news on the organic conversion front.

 

Organic Farming Thrives Worldwide | Worldwatch Institute

 

Driven by rising consumer demand and growing dissatisfaction with conventional farming practices, the organic agriculture industry is soaring. A recent U.N. survey found that farmers in at least 130 countries on all continents produce organic food commercially.

 

The European Union (EU) leads the global organic explosion, with a 35-fold expansion in organic area since 1985—an average annual growth rate of 30 percent. (See Figure 1.) At nearly 4 million hectares in 1999, organic area accounts for roughly 3 percent of total EU agricultural area, while the retail market for organic products has hit some $7.3 billion.

 

 

 

another informative link which gives links :cup:

Organic Food Production. Resource from the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center

[Cedars]

1. There are any number of organic ways of managing agricultural pests. In fact there are companies that contract to do just that.using predator species and timed, intelligent uses of organic pesticides. There are many pesticides that are effective, kill only target species and don't become an environmental problem for our great-great-grandchildren. neem, pyrethrum (natural) and quassia are a few that come to mind

To give some examples of organic pest control:

 

The first house I bought had root-knot-nematodes in the soil. I could grow nothing. I was told I would have to sterilise the soil with methyl bromide. I found a Rodale publication that suggested using sugar and lots of mulch. I did and the problem went away. I later discovered that the predator of nematodes was a fungus like creature that thrived with sugar and the dampness of the mulch.

 

Many organic farmers used to collect dead caterpillars and put them in warm sweet water. They would then spray this on the fields. No caterpillars. It was found that they were making a culture off Bacillis thungerensis, a bacteria that kills caterpillars. It is now marketed here as "Dipel"

 

Bt has now been genetically engineered into cotton plants so that cotton no longer uses the massive amounts of pesticides they used to.

I could go on -name a pest

 

 

 

 

 

Neem oil - It’s nontoxic to birds, mammals, and most beneficial insects, although it can affect bees so shouldn’t be used when they’re around. Bees are a primary source of pollenation around here. Several of my neighbors have bee hives as do neighbors of my mom (she has a small garden).

 

Soil Association of South Australia

 

Reading over some info on these things you have suggested leave me with some questions.

 

Quassia - The wood and bark of the Quassia tree, from South America, is a mild insecticide. Quassia chips can be kept in long term storage with little loss of potency.

How many trees does it take to create one ton of this product? or How much product is created by 1 acre of 40 year old trees?

 

Pyrethrum - The dried flower heads of the pyrethrum daisy are used to make an insecticide spray. The spray, though non-residual, is quite strong and should be used with caution.

How many ton of product per acre of flower planting?

 

Rotenone - A powder derived from the roots of various tropical plants. Kills insects and fish. Do not use near water. If used in excess, rotenone will kill earthworms. Also known as derris.

How many tons of product per acre of plants?

 

How much of these products are needed for one acre? If I remember right, one acre = roughly 43,000 square feet and, How many times a season do these have to be applied?

 

Here are two different pages with prices on some of the organic controls suggested. If you find a better source feel free to use their numbers.

Discount Hydroponics - Pest Control

 

Pest Control

 

Now what I need to know is cost per acre to implement such measures. If you cant give me the information I need to decide such a change, how are you going to convince the farmers not using such methods? I can call up the reps for monsanto chem and get exact cost per acre for any variety of chems used.

 

Broad range of topics covered here regarding Bt and plants.

 

GMO safety: Genetically modified plants and environment

 

Info on bt corn and its effects on the rootworm (also called cutworm) is not available yet.

Development of resistance to Bt maize among Western corn rootworm

 

I only read bits on cotton and corn. Seems promising all around but heres issues I have become aware of when using GM plants.

 

1. Cost for developing nations. GM seeds are patent protected meaning farmers who set aside a portion of their crop for next years harvest cant do that. Additionally I believe set asides dont work with GM crops.

 

2. Cost of product for developed nations. GM seeds are more expensive and will be difficult for smaller farms to implement, and for organics, it is the smaller farms which have the most potential for lessening chemical useage.

 

3. Pest resistance. According to the parts I read on GM effectiveness relys on great care in crop planning to ensure this resistance is not developed.

 

I would also add that we experimented on pest control thru predators in our garden on the farm with very limited sucess and abandoned the effort after a couple of years. We needed the food to grow that year, not sometime in the future.

[Cedars]

2. For it to work for global cooling at all it needs to be adopted on a massive scale. it is not the only way of farming but it does have some insights.Especially into the living dynamics of the soil. Strictly speaking it is probably not organic. It does show that we can reduce use of NPK Chemical fertilisers dramatically over a few years of clever soil management. It shows we can be a lot smarter, than we presently are, about our farming/gardening practices.

 

3b. It is interesting to note some of the wrong-headed advice US agricultural experts have given natives in central and southern America. For example one group always cut, but left, most weeds in situ. When US agriculture advisers destroyed all weeds soil fertility and crop production dropped.

Small hillside fields were amalgamated and ploughed resulting in crop failures and erosion. The old 2,000YO methods were more appropriate for the area.

 

I am unsure how you connect farming and global warming other than the loss of carbon absorbing trees. If so I will begin to address it with this:

 

2,000 years ago I believe the population estimates for Brazil was less than 5 million people (probably alot less). Brazil now has a population of nearly 200 million. To be self sufficent at feeding their own people you will need to expand farming. Now I dont know off the top of my head exactly how many acres of farmland are needed to feed just the people of Brazil vs how many acres are in production vs how many acres are unusable. Do you have this information?

--PS I must admit I do not undersatnd why organic food has to be dearer. In S France many herbs and vegies are grown organically, mainly because the French are too mean to buy chemicals. High quality fruit, vegies and herbs grown locally and sold in local markets are not dear.

 

I searched a bit for former forested areas of europe and didnt have much luck. Once upon a time I had found the maps showing the formerly forested regions of europe compared to now, but in this search that info evaded me. Heres one link that indicates the former low forested areas (down to less than 10% of original at max loss condition) to the current forested region of europe (estimated at 34% of its original).

 

Without knowing how much of France is forested vs cropland, I dont know that you can use their organics as a see how its done well comparison. That is if you want to include global cooling responsibilties within the factors (such as the above mentioned Brazil factor). Does that make sense?

 

http://library.wur.nl/wasp/bestanden/LUWPUBRD_00316462_A502_001.pdf

 

Link may not belong in this thread but I didnt want to lose it.

[Cedars]

3a Not enough organic fertilisers.

We throw out so much organic material, paper, kitchen scraps, human wastes, animal wastes. Most end up at the tip producing anaerobic methane.

With peak oil production almost here, we will not be able to afford chemical fertilisers in the future. (Personally I can't see what is too wrong with chemical fertilisers except for total dependence, high solubility, interference with soil micro-organisms, and salinity problems)

 

3c. Monoculture suits agri-business but it also suits pests. Many insects have their own birth control in place, depending on the amount of food available.

Imagine Adam and Eve Bugs joy at the sight of a million acres of wheat!. In China they have tried growing a row of rye, then barley then wheat etc.; so if bugs do get into a row they do not reproduce as much and can be contained easier

 

Agreed that in general people waste alot. I recycle, compost, and am not a big consumer of new products and have reduced the waste generated in my household significantly. So much so I have debated canceling my weekly pickup and hauling it in myself once a month. There has been talk in this state about charging people more for not recycling by monitoring the (supplied by garbage collectors) recycle bins and adding an additional cost on property taxes for those not participating in regular recycling. Discarded by the outcry of persons who dont recycle. Oh, and Minnesota has one of the highest household recycle rates in the USA. (if I remember right we are listed at either #7 or #5 out of the 50 states).

 

Monoculture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Monoculture is conductive to profitable farming. When a farmer plants his whole (for this example) 500 acres in wheat, he only has to purchace the chemicals needed to ensure his one crop (and can get multiple crops in one growing season depending on the crop planted). Now the following year the planting may be oats or another grain (different chemicals, different pests) and the third year he may do corn (different chems/different pests). What has happened now is the whole 500 acres of soil has had a break for 2 full years from the wheat chems, and the pests who profit from wheat have not had their food source for 2 full years. If the same farmer divides this up into 3 125 acre parcels, he has to apply a wider variety of chemicals (regardless of chemical or biological control) to ensure all three crops maximum yield and the food source for a larger variety of pests is available for all three years. Plus each of these crops depend on different nutrients for some parts. Some of the chems needed are the same, such as some of the ferts. But the herbicides, fungicides, and pesticides are variable.

 

Average farm size:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883511.html

 

Heres another site with additional info on farms

American Farmland Trust: Resources - Farming on the Edge Report - Top 20 States

 

Additionally, when we were planting our border fields, we contacted the person who owned the neighboring farm to work out plantings. Our planting of corn in the border field impacted his ability to plant alfalfa (for example) in his border field. The herbicides used would kill the edge of his field that bordered ours. By coordinating with him, we could work out plantings that didnt impact each other.

 

 

As far as China, do you have information on how much of the alternate row production is in use, how much of china is self sufficent on feeding its own peoples, what are the variables on the appropriate soil conditions, and how long they have studied this?

[Cedars]

4 Worms.

Worms are important but not just the wriggly ones you can see. If you joined up all the worms (nemadode family) in a square meter of land they would stretch to the moon, maybe Mars and back We have only named 10% of them so far. As for knowing what they do well we are as ignorant as. . . ???

The earth/soil is a dynamic, complex ecosystem. That the mere addition of NPK creates soil fertility is such a simplistic parody of the truth to be laughable.

 

I brought up the worms because the most common method of soil tillage destroys alot of the worms in ground. As far as stretching them out to the moon and back, its irrelevant if they are destroyed by tillage. Additionally, I would say that while the numbers of them are great, their habitat varies by soil conditions. When growing up we used to harvest worms for fishing. The best ones (and one specific type) we found along the bottom of our ravine under rocks and nowhere else. The ravine was in the woods (tree age approx 80-120 years old). Our fields were predominatly angle worms (red clay/gravel mix in the lowlands and held the largest number of worms) with some night crawlers on the edges near the tree lines. When you got to the tops of the hills the soil content became very sandy and the lower number of worms was noticable. So what I am saying is the quantity of worms world wide is irrelavant, the type of worm found in specific areas, their tolerance for dry conditions, and what they do for the given soil is relevant when using the terra preta method in whatever aspect it would be implemented in.

 

Now for the "wow I didnt know that" portion of my post. All the worms I have seen in MN seem to be an invasive species.

Invasive earthworms - Invasive species: Minnesota DNR

[Cedars]

Gee cedars,

I'll bet not too many people pick an argument with you at the pub!

 

 

Well, In my defense the arguments at the pub tended to be around sports teams, good looking dudes, and which beer is best. Tastes Great! vs Less Filling! types of banter.

 

I kinda miss those days.... :doh:

[Cedars]

Reading this article:

 

Organic Farming can Feed The World!

 

"This was in agreement with the higher yields of organic crops that were observed during those last two years. The organic systems were found to be more profitable in both corn and tomato among the 4-year rotations mainly due to the higher price premiums (Clark, 1999b). "

 

Heres the catch 22. As more farms convert to organic, the prices will drop negating the more profitable aspect. Organic farming is more labor intensive. As the profit is reduced, people will begin to drop out of the process or convert back to chem use to increase the profit (more product = more money) and the cycle begins again as consumers go for cheaper product.

 

"In 1999 however, during one of the worst droughts on record, yields of organic soybeans were 30 bushels /acre, compared to only 16 bushels/acre from conventionally- grown soybeans (Rodale Institute, 1999).

 

"Our trials show that improving the quality of the soil through organic practices can mean the difference between a harvest or hardship in times of drought" writes Jeff Moyer, farm manager at The Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania (Rodale Institute, 1999)."

 

OK fine, but what about too wet soil such as occurs during some years. Drought happens with varied frequency. Do organic soils also contribute to loss via root damage when rains are normal or higher? This happens in conventional farm fields and one or two big weeks of rain. The crops in the lower levels of the fields are drowned out or stunted. This piece is missing in this particular link. Half the time (it seems) crop plantings are delayed in s. MN (where the majority of cropland is) due to above average spring rains or the snow melt from a higher than normal winter snow.

 

Have you ever had to dig out a buried tractor? Its not pretty. A kid I went to school with told a story of his dad burying a tractor, so he got another to pull it out, and then the neighbor buried his tractor.... The Fifth tractor began to work. It was 4 days of delay as they dug tires out, and waited for the area to dry out some more etc...

 

Another problem with this paper is the lack of detail. I dont know where these farms were, how big they were or exactly what kinds of plants were used in each, the crop rotations, etc. This particular writer seems biased towards organics as I am reading his paper.

 

In one such study in South Dakota for the period 1986-1992, the average yields of soybeans were 29.6 bushels/acre and 28.6 bushels/acre in the organic and conventional systems respectively. In the same study, average spring wheat yields were 41.5 bushels/acre and 39.5 bushels/acre in the organic and conventional systems respectively.

 

Soy yield was 1 bushel an acre different. What is the labor cost of organics vs conventional? Do you know what 1 bushel of soybeans gets on the market?

 

Wheat yield is 2 bushels an acre more. 1994 average wheat price per bushel was $4.35.

 

Now for the biggies that farmers will need to know. What kinds of equiptment changes do I have to make to implement this organic farming stuff? I already have a 200K tractor, a 40K corn planter, a 25K plow, a 15K disc and I pick my neighbors corn so he combines my oats for me so I dont have to buy a $125K combine. I dont raise livestock so I would have to ship in manure. How much is this going to cost me to even begin the change over?

 

I express these things because that is exactly the questions/skeptical reaction you will get from those who farm for a living.

[Michaelangelica]

Neem oil - It’s nontoxic to birds, mammals, and most beneficial insects, although it can affect bees so shouldn’t be used when they’re around. Bees are a primary source of pollenation around here. Several of my neighbors have bee hives as do neighbors of my mom (she has a small garden).

 

Soil Association of South Australia

 

Reading over some info on these things you have suggested leave me with some questions.

 

 

Now what I need to know is cost per acre to implement such measures. If you cant give me the information I need to decide such a change, how are you going to convince the farmers not using such methods? I can call up the reps for monsanto chem and get exact cost per acre for any variety of chems used.

 

Broad range of topics covered here regarding Bt and plants.

 

GMO safety: Genetically modified plants and environment

 

Info on bt corn and its effects on the rootworm (also called cutworm) is not available yet.

Development of resistance to Bt maize among Western corn rootworm

 

I only read bits on cotton and corn. Seems promising all around but heres issues I have become aware of when using GM plants.

 

1. Cost for developing nations. GM seeds are patent protected meaning farmers who set aside a portion of their crop for next years harvest cant do that. Additionally I believe set asides dont work with GM crops.

 

2. Cost of product for developed nations. GM seeds are more expensive and will be difficult for smaller farms to implement, and for organics, it is the smaller farms which have the most potential for lessening chemical useage.

 

3. Pest resistance. According to the parts I read on GM effectiveness relys on great care in crop planning to ensure this resistance is not developed.

 

I would also add that we experimented on pest control thru predators in our garden on the farm with very limited sucess and abandoned the effort after a couple of years. We needed the food to grow that year, not sometime in the future.

 

I am sure Monsanto would know all the answers to your questions. Whether they will tell you is another thing.

But, like economics, organic gardening/farming is a way of thinking. "Tons per acre" is not a meaningful question in that philosophy.

The answers would be "Tons for what?"; When?; Why?;. What else have you tried?; Are you sure that the pest is the problem?; "Could it be the variety of plant you are growing?" Could it be a problem with the soil? "What else is going on?"; "Is the 'pest' really a problem or is it your definition/thinking?"

(Some insect attack acts like pruning; stimulating plant growth)

 

(When I sold plants for a living people would often ask as they purchased the plant "What will I spray it with?" I found answers like "For what" or "Why?'"didn't cut it; so I usually told them to spray it with Seaweed Fertiliser (They owe me). There are a lot of trigger happy gardeners out there)

A friend a commercial strawberry grower got rid of white fly with a good spray of seaweed fertiliser. Also White fly seem to come when a crop is under-watered.

My guess is that both neem and quassia are very cheap pesticides. Their drawback is that they break down quickly (Quassia within 24 hours and is more of an anti-feedant anyhow). This means more spraying. I would imagine that if USA companies are trying to patent Neem-much to the disgust and opposition of India and Indians who have been using it for generations -it is probably cheap and effective. I only used it once ( neem oil) it was amazingly effective on grasshoppers but I didn't know really how to use it.

There are thousands of plant based pesticides (CRC has a BIG book on them)

 

The only objections I have to modern pesticides is that they don't break down in any real sense of the word and they bio-accumulate. They also have a number of environmental problems because of this and they are also most probably both tetrogenic and carcinogenic to humans (Organophosphates and Chlorinated hydrocarbons).

Organic pesticides can be toxic too (nicotine for example), but they are broken down by the natural processes of nature.

 

I was at a Chemical Company Presentation of a New Pesticide to a group of garden writers a few years ago. I was really impressed with the saleman's pitch. It seem to me that the Big Chemical Companies had taken our fears on board and had tried to come up with a safe alternative pestice.

When I discussed the presentation with all the writers (maybe 50) in the room to a man/woman they were opposed to the New Pesticide. "You can't trust chemical companies- look how they lied in the past and the damage they did" seamed to be the consensus.

I was a bit shocked by their response. It seemed very unfair. Karma perhaps?

 

In my experience it takes some time to switch to an organic system. A few years at least. You can eventually build up a balance between predator and prey insects.

For example in early spring aphids will come to eat the new growth in roses (helped by the ants who milk them).. much later when it has warmed up a little more the ladybirds come and eat all your aphids. similarly at the end of the season the ladybirds disappear and the aphid population builds up before winter sets in. If you spray your roses in early spring or late autumn then there will be no food for the lady birds. Ladybirds have a"homing-pigeon" instinct and will return to your garden every year.

(I had to laugh at some enterprising students who found thousands of ladybirds in the countryside out of San Francisco (?) They bottled them up and sold them to nurseries in the towns. The ladybirds, of course, flew back to them and they bottled them up and. . .so. .on)

 

The GM question is a whole new ball game and thread?

Personally if it stops the massive amount of pesticide use of cotton crops I am all for it. (Whether watwer hungry country like Australia should be growing it is another question) As far as edible crops go I would like to know if I am eating GM foods (or caterpillar genes?).

Too there are still many unanswered questions about GM crops crossing with wild cousins. It is one thing to do your research on a high-tech farm in the USA and another when such seed is spread all around the planet and may cross breed with wild cousins.

 

I agree poor nations will loose out again. They are now.The UN and US now tell us that it is OK to spray DDT in Africa.(But not in the US) A few extra pennies in aid and they could afford less toxic alternatives

 

Here is a list of about .001 of the chemicals we are spreading around the planet (in Tons)

Agricultural Chemicals

 

 

chemicals toxicity, symptoms, and signs

 

 

Insecticides

 

Organophosphates (e.g., parasympathetic excess

malathion, parathion)

Carbamates (e.g., carbaryl, parasympathetic excess

carbofuran)

Chlorinated hydrocarbons

DDT, methoxychlor CNS stimulation, convulsions,

nausea, vomiting

Chlordecone (Kepone) nausea, vomiting

Herbicides

Chlorophenoxyacetic acids

2,4-dichlorophenoxy- nausea, vomiting, fatigue,

acetic acid (2,4-D) diarrhea, muscle ache and

twitches, peripheral nerve

damage, convulsion, memory

loss, colour visual disorder

2,4,5-trichlorophenoxy- irritation to skin, eyes, and

acetic acid (2,4,5-T) nose; teratogenic in animals

Bipyridinium compounds

Paraquat lung fibrosis; kidney and

liver damage

Diquat nosebleed, cough, fever,

jaundice

Others (e.g., diuron, irritation to the skin,

monuron, atrazine, nose, and throat

simazine, chlorpropham,

alachlor)

Fungicides

Pentachlorophenol quite irritating to eyes,

nose, and throat; anorexia;

weakness; shortness of

breath; chest pain;

carcinogenic in animals

Creosote extremely irritating to

skin, eyes, nose, and throat

Ferbam, thiram moderate irritation to eyes,

nose, and throat; mild skin

irritation; allergic contact

dermatitis

Fumigant nematocides

1,2-dibromo-3-chloropropane mildly irritating to skin,

(DBCP) eyes, and nose; testicular

damage; carcinogenic in

animals

Ethylene dibromide severe irritation to skin,

eyes, and throat; headache;

anorexia; CNS depression;

carcinogenic in animals

Methyl bromide headache, nausea, vomiting,

drowsiness, emotional

disturbances, tremors,

convulsion, coma,

lung irritation, bronchial

inflammation

Rodenticides

Warfarin internal bleeding

Strychnine restlessness, increased audio

and visual sensitivities,

muscular stiffness in face and

legs followed by convulsion

Thallium hair loss; skin eruptions;

intestinal bleeding; anorexia;

nausea; vomiting; injuries of

peripheral nerves, liver, and

kidney

Plant growth regulators

Daminozide (Alar) carcinogenic in animals

[Cedars]

I am sure Monsanto would know all the answers to your questions. Whether they will tell you is another thing.

But, like economics, organic gardening/farming is a way of thinking. "Tons per acre" is not a meaningful question in that philosophy.

The answers would be "Tons for what?"; When?; Why?;. What else have you tried?; Are you sure that the pest is the problem?; "Could it be the variety of plant you are growing?" Could it be a problem with the soil? "What else is going on?"; "Is the 'pest' really a problem or is it your definition/thinking?"

(Some insect attack acts like pruning; stimulating plant growth)

My whole point is I dont think you comprehend the massive undertaking of converting just the farms (even half) in just the USA alone to organic farming. I asked about specific organics suggested by you:

neem, pyrethrum (natural) and quassia are a few that come to mind

 

The questions I asked were relevant, in that it is by tonnage that calculations are made for how much product (whether pesticide, herbicide, ferts) companies use to determine how much they should make, and I assume that would be needed for organic farming. Additionally, every acre you take out of food production to create organic pest/fert/herbicide reduces the amount of actual farm production lands. So I was wondering exactly what it would take to produce this replacement for chemicals. It is not my position that is philosophic at this point, it is the idea that organic farming is feasable. Its fine that you support an idea, but when you dont produce actual numbers to allow those considering such a position to weigh out cost/effect, dont be disapointed when the issues your wanting taken seriously are not.

 

It is possible that tracts of lands can be put to this use, but without the facts, your not going to convince anyone to switch over when they can get the facts (how much fert/pest/herbicides do I need to order now for my spring planting) from the very companies that you are trying to take business away from.

In my experience it takes some time to switch to an organic system. A few years at least. You can eventually build up a balance between predator and prey insects.

For example in early spring aphids will come to eat the new growth in roses (helped by the ants who milk them).. much later when it has warmed up a little more the ladybirds come and eat all your aphids. similarly at the end of the season the ladybirds disappear and the aphid population builds up before winter sets in. If you spray your roses in early spring or late autumn then there will be no food for the lady birds. Ladybirds have a"homing-pigeon" instinct and will return to your garden every year.

Just because I am curious, how many years did you organic farm and what percentage of your yearly food supply did you achieve during your experience?

 

What is the habitat required for colonizing ladybirds?

 

Here is an interesting clip one site (googled Ladybird and Reproduction to find), talking about the ill effects on ladybirds who feed on aphids which have been feasting on GM potatos:

 

"The use of insecticidal proteins such as snowdrop (Galanthus nivellus) lectin (GNA) for controlling insect pests can also have harmful effects elsewhere in the food chain. Preliminary results have shown that the presence of GNA in transgenic potato plants retards the development of peach-potato aphids (Myzus persicae Sulzer) but does not kill them. Complete control of the aphids depends on a natural predator, the two-spot ladybird (Adalia bipunctata L.). Adult two-spot ladybirds that were fed on the peach-potato aphids colonizing GNA-expressing transgenic plants had significantly lower fecundity, egg viability, and longevity. Adverse effects on ladybird reproduction due to feeding on peach-potato aphids from GNA-expressing potato plants were reversed when the ladybirds were fed on pea aphids from nontransgenic bean plants. These results indicate that adverse trophic interactions of the GMF, in the long term, can alter the ecological balance for the worse. Thus the need to continuously monitor the plant pest/pathogen interaction cannot be overemphasized."

 

(I had to laugh at some enterprising students who found thousands of ladybirds in the countryside out of San Francisco (?) They bottled them up and sold them to nurseries in the towns. The ladybirds, of course, flew back to them and they bottled them up and. . .so. .on)

And for the farmer who has invested his future into this scheme, is it that funny? No wonder they return to DuPont and dismiss the efforts of conversion to organics.

 

<snipped list of chemicals posted for no apparent reason>

If I were to be reading this thread and wondering if I should put my 40 acres and a mule into organic farming, the proponent side has not made any convincing arguement (by allowing me to be able to calculate the cost to me), and philosophic idealisms are not going to make my industry (and thats what farming is) a profitable adventure. You might not like what I say when I argue the counter point, but you might better serve the thread by being able to back up your position with facts that are going to be relevant to my deciding to switch to this idea of farming.

 

So what if theres tons of pesticide / herbicide/ ferts going into the environment? Truth is I know alot of farmers who used these products for years and years and their not dying any faster than the people who never held a shovel or turned a scoop of manure in their lives.

[Michaelangelica]

cedars

I can't give you the figures you are asking for. How would I know them? Contact your local Department of Agriculture or Agriculture Extension Unit(?). Perhaps your Organic Registration Board or equivalent would have the answers you want.

As I said, I am sure Monsanto would know all the $ figures for their opposition.

 

The story of the lady-birds was merely given to show one needs to understand the ecology of the space you are gardening/farming in. you need to know how the insects help your activities as well as hinder them. To know this you need to understand their 'lifestyles'. If you are stupid enough to buy Lady-birds then caveat empore.

It is just as stupid for people to have their house sprayed every year with chlordane agains termites; when chlordane has a half-life of 18 years!

 

If we have only named 10% of the nematodes in soil we are a long way to understanding how it works.

 

I am not a farmer. I have gardened and run an (almost) organic nursery for many years, and was once, heavily involved with HDRA

 

I agree there are a lot of problems with GM. Some just fear of the new; some very real. Perhaps the Blue Rose is their greatest achievement!?

 

Merry Christmas:angel2:

michael