Ethanol as a Fuel?

[cwes99_03]

So it looks like a yes for me. The "busses" must be smaller gasoline engine types, meaning the "busses" aren't the same type of "bus" i'm used to (the megolith type the size of trailer-tractor combinations that carry 40-80 passengers). Would that be correct Q?

[Jay-qu]

actually no, they are the same size as a normal bus and feel the same to ride as any other bus. They advertise that burning ethanol is supposed to be cleaner.. dont ask me how they figure that ;)

 

I managed to find one pic, but its tiny (the pic, not the bus :D)

[cwes99_03]

Yep, that is the size I was imagining. Wonder what size engine it is running. I know that they do make some larger engines, but I would think they have to burn more fuel to get the same distance (lower fuel milage).

 

Ethanol still burns cleaner (than gasoline) in that it contains less harmful extras in the exhaust. It also only puts the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere as normal decomposition of the corn would do.

[Zythryn]

Ethanol still burns cleaner (than gasoline) in that it contains less harmful extras in the exhaust. It also only puts the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere as normal decomposition of the corn would do.

 

I do agree that ethonal burns cleaner than oil. Just one point of clarification about the carbon.

It is a question of scale. After all, oil is the same. It only puts as much carbon in the air as the plants/animals that created the oil. There is a lot of compression involved. More so with oil than corn.

 

When you burn a gallon of corn based ethonal it is not the same as burning a gallon of corn. Do you know what the compression factor is (i.e. how many cobbs of corn produce a gallon of ethonal)?

 

I don't which is the reason I ask.

 

Ethonal is a good stop-gap solution until electric motors get more widespread. The electric motors will be a good stop-gap until we can get the Mr. Fusions hooked up (Back to the Future).:)

[cwes99_03]

The difference between corn based fuel and oil based fuel is that the carbon in oil based fuel can remain in the ground, whereas the corn is being grown and at least partly decomposing into the air anyway. I don't disagree that electric motors running off of a cleaner burning plant is much more effective at reducing polution. Meantime we are talking about a transitional fuel that is better than anything based on foreign oil.

[Qfwfq]

Burning methane is even cleaner, around here there are more and more busses with methane engines. Some towns run the old diesel ones on an emulsion of oil and water, said to reduce the smoke.

[CraigD]

Burning methane is even cleaner, around here there are more and more busses with methane engines.

The same is true here, in the Washington, DC, USA area. Some of our busses run on methane, and have prominent signage on them saying “This bus is running on clean burning natural gas”, and showing lots of pleasant, blue-tinted clouds.

 

Methane is a much cleaner burning fuel than gasoline or diesel, having almost no particulate output, about 75% of gasoline’s NOx, 5% of its NMHC, and 15% of its CO (source: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/mobile6/r01033.pdf).

 

In the 1990s, a company in my area ran all their taxicabs (automobiles for hire) on natural gas, with a similar cloud logo and “clean burning” slogan. Incredibly, the local government regulatory board for taxicabs concluded that this was an unfair trade practice, and not only ordered them to cease using the logo and slogan, but to re-convert their cabs to burn gasoline! These actions bankrupted the company.

[cwes99_03]

Wow, I don't know if I can believe that last bit on government forcing a company to use gasoline engines. Legally speaking they didn't have a leg to stand on if they did, so I would bet that is a bunch of urban legend.

 

Likewise here in the middle of Illinois, you can find pickup trucks that run solely on propane (not methane). The problem is that the fillup stations aren't readily available and the stuff just jumped in price around here significantly (in the last year). Those two things make it not very feasable.

 

But we are getting off the topic. If you want to talk about these other vehicles, might I suggest starting a new thread?

[Jay-qu]

last time i was at the pump, I saw an ethanol blended fuel, it was more expensive and said on the bowser that it will probably result in less fuel efficiency.. :shrug: not much point at the moment.

[cwes99_03]

I'd also like to throw this into the mix, as I believe it was kind of already stated earlier, but I'm wondering about reaction to it.

 

While many vehicles today are being made flexible or bi-fuel, many people who buy them do not buy E85 to put into their tank (possibly due to inavailability) or methane (in the case of bi-fuel) to run on, instead running strictly off of the gasoline part of the engine.

Is this only due to availability? Are these people just buying the vehicle to seem ecologically friendly?

[InfiniteNow]

Could be tax incentives also, but if I were to choose between the two you suggested I'd vote availability (or lack thereof).

[matrixscarface]

why ethanol at all? i say we swtich to butanol, its much better. it has more power, we can make twice as much as with ethanol, and best of all.. we don't have to pay a dime switching our cars on it.

[Jay-qu]

do you have an links as to the source of this info matrix?

[cwes99_03]

why ethanol at all? i say we swtich to butanol, its much better. it has more power, we can make twice as much as with ethanol, and best of all.. we don't have to pay a dime switching our cars on it.

 

I'm gonna make a call.

This info is bologna, and should be deleted, unless you can post proof to that statement.

 

Perhaps you read the wiki article found here.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol

 

Note, it says twice as much butanol was created in the reaction between the bacteria and the starch (twice as much as the main product was produced, the main product being acetone).

 

But note what it says down the page.

 

Potential problems with the use of butanol fuel

The potential problems with the use of butanol are similar to those of ethanol:

 

To match the combustion characteristics of gasoline, the utilization of butanol fuel as a substitute for gasoline requires fuel-flow increases.

Alcohol-based fuels are not compatible with some fuel system components.

Alcohol fuels may cause erroneous fuel quantity indications in vehicles with capacitance fuel level gauging.

The viscosity of butanol is much higher than for gasoline or ethanol, which could have negative effects on the fuel system.

 

You can't make unfounded claims on this site.

 

I do agree however, that a consideration of n-butanol (not t-butanol because it likes to vaporize at low temperatures) should be done when considering alternative fuels.

[matrixscarface]

yes, thank you for pointing that out to me, but if we were to use n-butanol, all we would need to do is change the air to fuel ratio in general older model's, that would be going under the hood and doing some simple changes, but i think in newer models, all you would need to do is unplug the battery for a change like that. but gauging is a problem.

 

i'll admit. i was wrong. i forgot that butanol just made it. as much butanol is made as is much ethanol. i made a mistake.

 

But n-butanol does have advantages over ethanol. and that cannot be ignored.

[Jay-qu]

Im no mechanic, but I think it would be slightly more complex than that..

 

Please provide links or resources as to these advantages that you have stated.

[matrixscarface]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-injection.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_to_fuel_ratio"

 

" plus additives including detergents, and possibly oygenators such as MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether) or ethanol/methanol. These compounds all alter the stoichiometric ratio, with most of the additives pushing the ratio downward (oxygenators bring extra oxygen to the combustion event in liquid form that is released at time of combustions; for MTBE-laden fuel, a stoichiometric ratio can be as low as 14.1:1). Vehicles using an oxygen sensor(s) or other feedback-loop to control fuel to air ratios (usually by controlling fuel volume) will usually compensate automatically for this change in the fuel's stoichiometric rate by measuring the exhaust gas composition, while vehicles without such controls (such as most motorcycles, and cars predating the mid-1970's) may have difficulties running certain botique blends of fuels (esp. winter fuels used in some areas) and may need to be rejetted (or otherwise have the fueling ratios altered) to compensate for special botique fuel mixes."