Death with Dignity Debate

[Freethinker]

A few days ago the Florida Supreme Court issued a decision stating the recently passed "Terri's Law" is unConstitutional. The most recent ruling was based not on the issue itself (Right to Life), but on whether the Legislature had the right to pass a law which intentionally allows the Executive Office in Florida to ignore a previous Judicial ruling. But let's discuss the Right To Life/ Death with Dignity aspects.

 

Terri has been in a persistent vegetative state for 14 years after suffering heart failure. Her husband states that she would not want to be keep alive like this. But her parents want her body kept mechanically functioning at all costs.

 

'Terri's Law' struck down

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/09/23/shiavo.ap/

 

Especially in light of a new situation in the UK. An infant was born prematurely in October last year weighing just one pound and measuring only five inches. She has stopped breathing 3 times already because of faulty heart and lungs. Dr's expect her to suffer another lung failure with-in the next few months. The Dr's are trying to get court intervention to stop any further efforts to maintian her life as they consider it “futile or cruel” to try to resuscitate her.

 

Press Association

Resuscitating Baby Futile and Cruel, Say Doctors

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3567768

 

IS "life" still "life" if all there is is a physical body with no mental activity? Is there a point at which the "quality of life" is so bad that death is the more humane and ethical alternative? Does LOVE include helping a loved one end their suffering or end artificial existence? Or does LOVE require making every effort to keep the loved one "alive" no matter what?

[geko]

Dont want to speak in general but for the topic my family knows that i wish the machine to never be switched off. With regard to myself i would consider this still 'life'. All and every means may be used to keep me that way... especially if im paying! The reason being is that 'one-day' i may wake up, you never know.

[lindagarrette]

I want to know why people are so afraid to die. I can understand avoiding pain which makes me think there are times when being dead is preferred. We weren't here before we were born and didn't mind that.

[Uncle Martin]

Should the situation ever arise I have left explicit instructions to not be hooked up to any life support, or have it turned off as soon as it is certain I will not recover. I am an organ donor. My brother and I feel so strongly about it that we have made a pact to end the others life in the event of total paralysis, severe brain damage, etc,... Anything that prevents us from living what we consider a meaningful life.

 

I don't fear death, I do hope it doesn't hurt too much and I would like to see it coming. Not too far in advance though.

[IrishEyes]

This conversation always gets the blood boiling in my home.

 

I have a living will. Like Uncle Martin, I have left very explicit instructions regarding what I want done in certain situations. For instance, if there is a car accident and I am injured. use every means possible to save me. However, if the best that can be done for me is to keep me on 'life-support' for an indefinite period of time, PULL THE PLUG! However, unlike Uncle Martin, paralysis is not one of those things that would have me in a coffin. Also, while all of my family knows of my desire to be an organ donar, it is not recorded on paper in any place.

 

I don't fear death either. And while I am anxious for what comes next, I am really enjoying watching my children grow right now.

 

To the topic though, I think that this is one of the toughest choices any family has to make. I think it is a very personal decision, but that there must still be some sort of checks-and-balances. There will always be extreme cases - some greedy relative wanting to pull the plug to collect insurance; some only child hit by a car with no chance of ever regaining conciousness, but with 'viable organs'; always some sad story, and no way to regulate every situation.

 

On a different note, if we can determine when it is no longer 'life' after a tragedy, does that mean that there is also a definition of 'life' in relation to conception/birth? Is that the other part of "Right to Life"?

[Tormod]

I read the same story here in Norway and first of this is of course a horrible tragedy for the parents. I can't imagine what it must be like.

 

Yvonne and I both have donor cards which we carry around, but if the worst comes to worst I don't know what we would really do. It is a really tough call. We have no wills made out (yet). But I'd agree with Irish - keep me alive for as long as it takes, but when it's obvious im a veggie that's it. But where to draw the line...see, that wouldn't be me doing that, then.

 

Not an easy topic.

[Uncle Martin]

And what we believe we can do, and should do according to others wishes,.... may well turn out to be impossible given the actual burden of making these tough decisions. I only hope I never find out if I am capable of exercising the tasks asked of me.

 

Very difficult subject indeed.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

This conversation always gets the blood boiling in my home.

Death by czarnina?

I have a living will. Like Uncle Martin, I have left very explicit instructions regarding what I want done in certain situations.

This is very important. Having discussions early, before the situation rears it's head, can save a lot of anxiety and confusion if it should. It also stops a lot of anger and anomosity after the fact for those that may have had to make decisions for others.

Also, while all of my family knows of my desire to be an organ donar, it is not recorded on paper in any place.

My State has a spot on the Drivers License to indicate Organ Donor. THus an appropriate action can be made on the spot when viability is highest.

And while I am anxious for what comes next,

Yes, we can all understand why. This is one of the issues that is removed when one does not have to carry a cross on their back!

On a different note, if we can determine when it is no longer 'life' after a tragedy, does that mean that there is also a definition of 'life' in relation to conception/birth? Is that the other part of "Right to Life"?

Good question. And if one accepts and promotes CHOICE in life's end, one would be hipocritical to not also promote CHOICE to life's beginning. To promote that there is some objective Medical Science based determination of when physical life is no longer assignable to a physically existing body would require acceptance of scientific understandings at the other end.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

And what we believe we can do, and should do according to others wishes,.... may well turn out to be impossible given the actual burden of making these tough decisions. I only hope I never find out if I am capable of exercising the tasks asked of me.

Perhaps then I am one of the few that can speak from direct personal experience. My mother had suffered from Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) for a number of years. Her "quality of life" had been deteriorating slowly for some time. A lifetime of tobacco were taking their toll. Standing up was getting to be a challenge. Then even sitting was difficult and painful. A slow death by suffication is a horrible thing to watch much less suffer through. Not just the lack of oxygen causing pain and stopping even simple movement. But the continual medication required to suppress the continual pain, expanding to unrestricted use of morphine, stopped life from having much of any meaning or personal value.

 

She BEGGED for an end to the suffering. There was no hope of any kind for any resolution other than death. But religious fanatics have stopped people from being allowed to make their own decisions. The inhumanity forced by narrowminded fundies prolonged and complicated my mothers ability to make an informed and consentual over her own existence.

 

Finally we were able to access a hospice that provided a loving and medically controlled environment to allow nature to take it's course with the assitance of an informed and cognitive decision. Fluids were stopped and pain controlled. Peace was finally found.

 

Yet there is a continual effort by these self absorbed Christians (Too bad if someone doesn't like my bringing it up, you live thru the battle then talk to me about it) to force their antiquated ignorance on everyone. And it comes from the top, the Executive Branch in the US as well as self proclaimed religious authorities around the world. Yet another example of the direct harm forced on the world by Christianity.

[sanctus]

The question i asked myself for a long time was: "who are we to decide if ones life has to be stopped or not?"

 

I know, it sounds a bit religious like believing in a bigger entity that decides for us.

 

After lots of thinking in the past years I came to the conclusion that our science is now enough advanced that the possibility geko speaks about (might come back, you never know) is negligeable. In addition to that if someone is seriously braindamaged but machines keep his/her heart going and then eventually he/she comes back he/she would be left as an vegetal anyway; if somebody wants to keep on living like that, that's his choice, I would prefer that all my friends would be able to remind me as I was and to come visit me in the cementary (so it would be much easier for them as well, there would be eventually an ending point and not a life of hoping in something that very most likely won't happen). In addition to that I would prefer that the money used to keep me alive is spent elsewhere.

 

I have to enfathize this is my point of view and I do not want it to be generalized or statalized, because a state that decides when a citizen has to die is a fascist state, the choice of dying has to be an individual choice.

 

 

Just two little ending stories:

In northern italy there's a girl (teenager) kept alive by machines, if she would ever come back she would rest a vegetal. One month before her accident she was on a tv-show broadcasted all trough italy, where she said that if something like that would ever happen to her, she would never want to be kept alive. It's now about 10 years (or 15 I don't remember), that her father tries everthing to let her die,without success.

 

And something a bit cheering up: in switzerland there is an association called EXIT and it's an active form of euthanasia (ie. it's not the doctors that stop to keep you alive, but they give you a venom and you can drink it or not).The father of a friend of mine knew he would die with very much pain in the following months, so he contacted EXIT took farewell from his family and friends and drunk a venom that made him fall in eternal sleep without pain.

[IrishEyes]

And something a bit cheering up: in switzerland there is an association called EXIT and it's an active form of euthanasia (ie. it's not the doctors that stop to keep you alive, but they give you a venom and you can drink it or not).The father of a friend of mine knew he would die with very much pain in the following months, so he contacted EXIT took farewell from his family and friends and drunk a venom that made him fall in eternal sleep without pain.

 

That's cheerful? If that's something that cheers you, sanctus, we need to talk!

 

As for Freethinker... I'm fairly certain that it wasn't easy to watch your mother die. And I also think that one of the main issues is "Does LOVE include helping a loved one end their suffering or end artificial existence? Or does LOVE require making every effort to keep the loved one "alive" no matter what?" I think Love is both things. I don'thtink the two need be mutually exclusive. Mostly though, I think that LOVE is knowing the person in question well enough to be able to say with reasonable certainty what there wishes are, and FOLLOWING those wishes, regardless of what you feel about them. For instance, my husband does not like the fact that I have a DNR order in the event that I should be on any type of prolonged life-support. However, he knows how I feel, as does the rest of my family, and I am confident that he will respect my wishes.

 

For the most part, I think this is something that the governemnt should stay out of. Pathetic attempts at humor aside, I think that putting Kevorkian on trial was a crime, and I do not feel that his actions were criminal, although they were quite illegal. His biggest mistake was in making things so very public. If he had performed his services without all of the fanfare, no problem. It was the need for attention that was his downfall.

[IrishEyes]

Also, I just watched some sappy Lifetime special about an American child that died in Italy a decade or so ago and inspired Italians to become organ donars. It was based on a true story, and the tone of it seemed that there have been many organ donations in that country since. Would an increase in organ donation relate in any way to whether or not a person is allowed to die? I would think that people would be more willing to let their loved ones go if they knew that another family would benefit.

 

As for having 'Donar" on my DL... it is an option in my state, but I've always been a bit paranoid. I guess I'd be a bit nervous that the docs might not do all they could if they knew I was going to be a donar. Sounds rather maudlin, but advertising it seems rather yucky to me. I read this twisted book about a lady that had it on her DL and was hunted down and ran off the road by a psycho that needed her heart to save his wife... Again...yucky! I know, I know, it's just a silly book, but hey, if someone thought about it long enough to write it, can you imagine how many whackos out there have seriously contemplated it?

[sanctus]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

And something a bit cheering up: in switzerland there is an association called EXIT and it's an active form of euthanasia (ie. it's not the doctors that stop to keep you alive, but they give you a venom and you can drink it or not).The father of a friend of mine knew he would die with very much pain in the following months, so he contacted EXIT took farewell from his family and friends and drunk a venom that made him fall in eternal sleep without pain.

 

That's cheerful? If that's something that cheers you, sanctus, we need to talk!

 

Yes, it is cheerful and if you want we can talk.

 

It's cheerful because that man could decide of his own life (and not some old, often religious, tradition that was present in the society), he trusted enough in science to know that he would surely die ine the following months and that the pains would grow exponentially and so he could put an end to his life. It's something very different from suicide, one can really be sure that it will work and that he/she will be dead.

It is also cheerful, because so he could take farewell from family and friends; something that probably, because of the pain, wouldn't have been possible if he waited for the "natural end".

 

If you understood that I think it's cheerful because he died then you are wrong. I just meant it is cheerful that he could decide how he wants to die as he was going to die soon.

[IrishEyes]

Yes, it is cheerful and if you want we can talk.

 

Sorry, I forgot to add my smiley. I often forget that my particular brand of sarcasm does not translate well to other languages, or even to my own if over a computer, or very often even in person.

 

Personally, I think there should be an option like that for people with terminal illnesses. However, I don't think the main objection is really a religious one. I think it boils down to most family members being too selfish for this option. While it sounds great to say that you want your parent, child or spouse to die with dignity, very often you are just too sad/scared/selfish to make the sacrifice. I think I would probably feel different about the situation of it were my husband or my child. I have discussed it at length with my husband and I KNOW how he feels. I've never even seriously considered it for my children, and I'm not sure if I could ever let one of them go. Does that make sense? Just thinking about it in connection with one of my children is - right now- causing my hands to go cold and my breathing to get shallow. However, I did not have the same type of physical reaction when thinking about what would happen if my husband were in that situation. I don't love him any less, but it is a VERY different sort of love. I think the situation would again be different for a parent, and it would also depend on a particular society.

 

What do Asians think of Death with Dignity in relation to a parent? I've always been amazed and impressed with how well most Asian societies treat their aged members, in sharp contrast to most Western countries.