The "Star" of Bethlehem was not light years away (and it wasn't Jupiter either)

[kmarinas86]

And according to our primitive ancient ancestors, comets were omens of Doom, not of goodness, victory, success, and other sweet things. You cannot follow a meteor on horseback for five miles, it poofs long before that.

 

Star of Bethlehem in General:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

 

Star of Bethlehem in King James version of the Bible:

 

       N
      |
W------+------E
      |
      S

 

hti.umich.edu/k/kjv/

 

Matt.2

[1] Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

 

Jerusalem <-Wise Men<- EAST

 

[2] Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

 

E King A of Jews' S Star T

 

[3] When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

[4] And when he had gathered all the chief preists and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

 

The answer given by the chief preists and scribes:

 

[5] And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

[6] And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

 

Jerusalem
   |
   |
   V
Bethlehem

 

[7] Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.

!

 

[8] And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

[9] When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

 

2 Interpretations

 

Interpretation #1

Result: It no longer went before them when it both came and stood over where the young child was.

The Question Raised: When did they no longer see it in the east?

Answer: When they looked away, only to see it later in the south.

 

Interpretation #2

Result: They saw it in the east until it came and stood over where the young child was.

The Question Raised: How can this be true if the "star" was seen in the southern sky?

Answer: It's not true that the star was in the east during the journey, so this interpretation must be wrong.

 

Normal Star:

 

                                                              <Southernly Star>

  Magi------->          .J.e.s.u.s.
___________________________


                                                              <Southernly Star>

            Magi------->.J.e.s.u.s.
___________________________

                                                              <Southernly Star>

                    Magi>.J.e.s.u.s.
___________________________

                                                              <Southernly Star>

                     .J M e A s G u I s.                       Something else
___________________________

 

Two types of "above"

 

Physical "aboveness"

Result: The star is directly above Bethlehem when the Magi are close by.

The Question Raised: Is this "star" at the zenith?

Answer: A star that was in the east could, at the Middle East Latitudes, be located at the Zenith. A two hour journey would be consistent with a celestial sphere rotation of (2/24)*360 degrees or 30 degrees, which is about three times the width of a fist held along the celestial equator. The east from "two hours ago" must have been very insignificant if a star (a real one to put it midly) would have been directly above when the Magi were at Bethlehem. With horse travel the stars would have little chance not to travel less than 30 degrees in the sky, making the "eastwardness" of the "star" at the beginning of journey even less significant. Would you try to follow a star that is right above you head for over 5 miles? (fyi. exactly following a star will render a curved, indirect path)

 

Perspective "aboveness"

Result: Bethlehem seen from a distance is seen under the location of the star in the celestial sphere.

Question: From what perspective and distance is this acceptable?

Answer: From the north, looking in a southernly direction from a sufficiently large distance from Bethlehem, but not within Bethlehem itself. At Bethlehem, the "star" is seen "above" something else that may be 5 miles to the south!

 

A solution:

The (so said) "star" had perspective aboveness with respect to Bethlehem during most of the journey, and physical aboveness over Bethlehem during the end of journey. Going "before" the 3 Wise Men, was the (so said) "star", which is consistent with a mobile "leader" which the Wise Men followed in the same direction that the (so said) "star" travelled.

 

[10] When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

[11] And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Is the diagram above correct? If yes or no, where is the "star" at this point? If you said no, and if you believe the star is at the zenith with respect to Bethlehem (5 miles from Jerusalem), then explain how you believe that the three wise men followed this star. If you said yes, then why by the time the 3 Wise Men reach Bethlehem is the star "over" a place 5 miles to the south, for because of this the star is no longer "above" Bethlehem for people at Bethlehem! If you said no, and answered that the so-called "star" was moving at a pace similiar to the 3 Wise Men's mode of travel, but somewhere above and front of them, then you understand where I'm coming from.

 

Facts:

• Not all "wise men" (magi) are "astrologers". That should be obvious.
  
• Primitives did not need a "special star" or planetary alignment to navigate their way from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.
  

[Panjandrum]

Dont they have special forums for people like you?

[kmarinas86]

Dont they have special forums for people like you?

 

I'm afraid not.

[Queso]

"now I'm lost"

[Freddy]

Oh no, another thread on religion. Is there any empirical evidence to support the star of Bethlehem? I have been on this planet for 52 years and do not think I know all that much. However, do you not think that if there was some empirical evidence that we all would be familiar with it? Then of course, they were convinced Noah's Ark was in Turkey, but now they think it is Iran. It cannot possibly be in both places. That is why I doubt it exists at all.

[Korina]

Why couldn't it have been spiritual in nature?

[ughaibu]

If by "spiritual" you mean imaginary, the claim that it was seen by at least three people would seem to contradict the possibility.

If you mean of purely religious significance, you may have a point. Unless there are independent reports of the star, the simplest possibility is that it was fabricated by the authors of the Bible.

[HydrogenBond]

Here is an interesting article about the Star of Bethleham using astrological data recorded at that time.

http://sciastro.net/portia/articles/thestar.htm

 

I pasted a little of the text below;

 

In February of 6 BC a massing of three planets occurred, again in the constellation Pisces, when Jupiter, Mars and Saturn came within 8 degrees of each other. This event occurs only once every 800 years, approximately, and again, would have had great significance to the astronomers of the time. Both of these rare events would have been predicted by the ancient astronomers.

 

Chinese astronomers recorded a nova in the constellation Capricorn that was visible during March-April of 5 BC. It was visible for over 70 days. But Matthew indicates that the star moved from the eastern sky to the south. A nova in Capricorn, some 40 degrees off the ecliptic, would not have moved much at all, with respect to Earth; it would have remained in the same place with respect to the celestial background.

 

Chinese astronomers also recorded two comets - one in 5 BC and one in 4 BC. The comet of 5 BC had an observable tail; the comet the following year did not. Although the Chinese thought of comets as “broom stars” - sweeping away the old and bringing in the new, and thus, looked upon them with favor, many astronomers, as well as the general populace, in Persia and the Roman empire did not share this view. Comets were felt to be harbingers of disaster; it is therefore highly unlikely that a comet could have been the star that announced the birth of the Jewish Messiah, or that inspired the Magi to make the long journey to Bethlehem. Furthermore, Matthew’s account clearly described a star; it is highly unlikely that he would have mistaken a comet for a star.

 

However, these astronomical events, exciting as they were, pale by comparison to the events of an 18 month period during 3-2 BC. This was one of the most remarkable periods in terms of celestial events in the last 3000 years. These celestial events no doubt inspired many wonderful and mystical interpretations, by the priests and religious peoples of those times. And coincidentally, they occurred when the entire Roman empire was in celebration. It was as though the heavens were confirming the greatness of the sovereignty of the Roman Empire in general, and Caesar Augustus in particular.

 

On May 19, 3 BC, the planets Saturn and Mercury were in close conjunction - within 40’ (minutes of arc) of each other. Then Saturn moved eastward through the stars to meet with Venus on June 12, 3BC. During this conjunction the two were only 7.2’ apart. And if this weren’t enough, on August 12, 3 BC, Jupiter and Venus came into close conjunction just before sunrise, coming within 4.2’ from each other as viewed from earth, and appearing as a very bright morning star. This conjunction took place in the constellation Cancer, the “end” sign of the Zodiac. Ten months later, on June 17 2BC, Venus and Jupiter joined again, this time in the constellation Leo. The two planets were at best 6” (arc seconds) apart; some calculations indicate that they actually overlapped each other. This conjunction occurred during the evening and would have appeared as one very bright star. Even if they were 6” apart, it would have required the sharpest of eyes to split the two, because of their brightness.

 

That this conjunction also occurred during a full moon was also important to the Romans. Full moon day was especially sacred to Jupiter, and the day itself was called “the Trust of Jupiter”. It was celebrated as a time when faith and trust were supposed to be given to the guardian and ruler of the Empire of Rome, whether human or divine (and in the case of Augustus, there was little distinction).

 

Another rare astronomical event occurred 72 days after the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus, on August 27, 2 BC. This was a close grouping, or massing, of the planets Jupiter, Mars, Venus, and Mercury. It also occurred in the constellation Leo, and during the month of August when most of the Roman festivities for that unusual year were taking place. This was seen by astrologers as “common agreement of purpose”. It probably also signaled a new and powerful beginning for Rome and the rest of the known civilized world.

 

Just 33 days after the Jupiter/Venus “morning star” conjunction, on August 12, 3 BC, Jupiter came to within 19.8’ of Regulus. Regulus, the chief star in Leo, lay practically in the path of the Sun, and was therefore afforded the additional epithet of “Royal Star”. Here was the “King planet” now coming into contact with the “King Star”. AND in the Royal Constellation. If viewed in isolation to other astronomical occurrences this single event might not have been significant to astrologers, but combined with the other celestial displays of 3 to 2 BC, it soon took on increased symbolic meaning. This is because the first conjunction began a series of three meetings of Jupiter and Regulus that occurred in a precise sequential pattern. Jupiter first united with Regulus and then continued on its normal journey through the heavens. On December 1, 3 BC, Jupiter stopped its motion through the fixed stars and began its annual “retrograde” motion. In doing so, it once again headed toward Regulus. Then on February 17, 2 BC, the two were reunited, 51’ apart. Jupiter continued its retrograde motion another 40 days and then it reverted to its normal motion through the stars. Remarkably, this movement once again placed Jupiter into a third conjunction with Regulus on May 8, 2 BC. They were then 43.2’ apart.

[learnin to learn]

If by "spiritual" you mean imaginary, the claim that it was seen by at least three people would seem to contradict the possibility.

If you mean of purely religious significance, you may have a point. Unless there are independent reports of the star, the simplest possibility is that it was fabricated by the authors of the Bible.

 

why does something spiritual have to be imaginary? have you never experienced something that you could not explain? even with scientific laws?

[ughaibu]

"why does something spiritual have to be imaginary?"

It doesn't, I was offering opinions based on two possible interpretations of the vague and unconventional notion of a 'spiritual star'.

 

"have you never experienced something that you could not explain?"

How is this relevant? Conventionally, "spiritual" isn't interchangeable with "unexplained".

[learnin to learn]

"why does something spiritual have to be imaginary?"

It doesn't, I was offering opinions based on two possible interpretations of the vague and unconventional notion of a 'spiritual star'.

 

"have you never experienced something that you could not explain?"

How is this relevant? Conventionally, "spiritual" isn't interchangeable with "unexplained".

 

:confused: sorry ughaibu, I just misunderstood what you said, my apologies.

[ughaibu]

No problem.

[HydrogenBond]

The modern myth of UFO's is sort of like this. I beleive that people honestly believe they saw or experienced something. However, it can not be fully proven in a scientific way. Such people are often read about in tabloids because of this gap between science and witness account. Picture if the star of Bethleham was a type of collective projection that stemmed from a source similar to UFO's. Many people would swear they saw something. Others acted on what they saw, leading them to the newborn child, Jesus.