Convincing Atheist

[dattaswami]

Convincing Atheist

 

The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. In fact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception.

 

The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks. When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative. If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

 

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power. Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes. The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

 

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists. Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself.

 

This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas. In fact Swami Vidyaranya included the philosophy of Charvaka in his book as one of the logical philosophies (Darsanaas).

 

 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

 

Anil Antony

 

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Universal Spirituality for World Peace

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[Panjandrum]

Hmm, nothing like an appeal to authority to persude rational people. Im convinced. How can I sign up for your newsletter?

[Zythryn]

The faulty logic in this is astonishing. Perhaps you can help clarify for me:

 

What does "A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’." mean?

 

What type of bond?

 

Does every human, in your belief, have this bond?

 

What does it look like?

 

Thanks for any enlightenment.

[dattaswami]

Hmm, nothing like an appeal to authority to persude rational people. Im convinced. How can I sign up for your newsletter?

 

Panjandrum;

 

Lord- Atheist –Service

 

Building is there. Implies Builder should be there. Creation is there. Creator should be there. I can see the building, which is in front of my eyes, but builder need not stand in front of the building. He will be in his own job. If you want to meet the builder, you should definitely put effort to locate the builder and see him. Likewise Creation is there in front of our eyes. But have we put anytime effort to locate and identify the creator? Instead of that, with least effort we can propagate to others also that God is not there. They are not only blinded, they are making others also blinded. Some people who are theists may become prey for the propagation of this ignorance also unfortunately. The greatest sin on the earth is to be unfaithful.

 

To identify the builder you should know the identification marks, where he lives, what he does etc.. and we have to enquire if we don't know. This is to say that knowledge is required to identify any person. This knowledge is called divine knowledge if the aim is to identify the Lord, which actually only is to be propagated. Lord created this universe for the enjoyment without any selfish motive and we human beings are enjoying the creation. Like through nice parents, wife, children, beautiful nature consisting of pleasant looking mountains, rivers, sea, nature, changing weather etc.

 

If we cannot please the Lord, the human life is incomplete. We serve our family members by spending our hard earned money and also physically. Are we not serving family as Servant, and these family members are nearly equal to us. Where as, Lord is omnipotent and requires no help from us, many times satisfied our desires, saved us from mishaps etc. and if we cannot bow our head in front of Him, it is very ridiculous. It is very great honour to serve Him, this is the path followed by His real devotees. These real devotees could overcome ego and always wants to serve Him as servant.

 

Jesus preached the gospel and His followers participated in His mission as servants for further propagation of divine knowledge. These great devotees never hesitated to serve Lord Jesus and their names have also been known even today.

 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

 

Anil Antony

 

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

SPAMLINK REMOVED

[dattaswami]

The faulty logic in this is astonishing. Perhaps you can help clarify for me:

 

What does "A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’." mean?

 

What type of bond?

 

Does every human, in your belief, have this bond?

 

What does it look like?

 

Thanks for any enlightenment.

What do you mean by Vairaagyam, Sayujyam and Kaivalyam?

 

A) When you cut all your bonds of love on all the things and on all the people in this world, it is called ‘Vairaagyam’. But this stage is not sufficient. The reason for this stage should be the love formed on the Lord. Due to this new bond on the Lord, all the old bonds must be cut. If the new bond does not exist and simply the old bonds are cut, that is only salvation. A stone is also having salvation because it does not have any bond on any thing or any body in this world. If one leaves the family and the house by taking Sanyasa, all that is a waste, if he has not taken the Sanyasa for the sake of the Lord. The new bond with the Lord (Bhakthi) should be the reason for the detachment from all the other bonds (Vairaagyam).

 

Only Vairaagyam is useless without Bhakthi. If Bhakthi is achieved, Variraagyam is automatic. There is no need of any effort for attaining the Vairaagyam. If you have tasted the divine nectar (Amrutham), you will automatically discard the other drinks. Without tasting the divine nectar, you cannot leave the drinks. Even if you leave the drinks without tasting the divine nectar, you will go to the drinks after some time with very high vigor. Therefore Vairaagyam without Bhakthi is not only waste but is also impossible. Just see this example. A young man loved a girl for the past one month. The parents are not agreeing for the marriage. But the young man cuts all his bonds, which were developed, with his parents for the past twenty-five years due to this one-month-old new bond! The million births old bonds are cut by a single new bond developed with the Lord in human form in this birth. Swami Vivekananda could cut all the family bonds for the sake of the divine work of His Satguru (Rama Krishan Paramahamsa). Similarly Gopikas could cut all the family bonds for the sake of the Lord in human form (Krishna).

 

A small atom bomb can destroy huge mountains. Narada wrote that one should love the Lord as a lover loves his or her darling (Jaara Vatcha). He also gave the example of Gopikas in the next Sutra (Yathaa Vraja Gopikanaam). Such l ove involves the practical sacrifice. The lover is leaving his or her parents practically to go along with his or her darling. Even if the parents threaten stating that they will not give the property if he/she marries his/her lover, the boy or the girl is prepared to leave all the property for the sake of his or her lover. When the parents manage to kill him or her, she or he is committing suicide. Therefore for the sake of the lover one can cut all the family bonds, bond with wealth and money and even the bond with the life. When you can do these things in the case of the lover, how can I believe that they are impossible things in the case of the Lord? This means that you don’t have that much real love on the Lord.

 

Holy Jesus told that one should cut the bond even with his life for the sake of the Lord. If something is impossible, that should be impossible every where. The new love is called ‘Saayujyam’ and ‘Kaivalyam’. Saayujyam means becoming close to the Lord. Kaivalyam means becoming one with the Lord. Kaivalyam does not mean merging in the Lord physically. Whatever the devotee says, the Lord will say the same. Whatever the devotee wishes the Lord wishes the same. This is vice-versa also. Such oneness is called Kaivalyam.

 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

 

Anil Antony

 

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

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[dattaswami]

The faulty logic in this is astonishing. Perhaps you can help clarify for me:

 

What does "A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’." mean?

 

What type of bond?

 

Does every human, in your belief, have this bond?

 

What does it look like?

 

Thanks for any enlightenment.

 

Bonds hindering the spiritual progress & overcoming them

 

Ans) There are four strong bonds, which hinder the spiritual progress.

 

 

1) The bond with the wife

 

2) The bond with the money

 

3) The bond with the child

 

4) The bond with ones body and life.

 

Avadhoota can only be the soul who has cut all these four bonds. A Sanyasi could cut the first three bonds but not the fourth bond. A Sanyasi takes food, drinks water, sleeps and leaks the sperm periodically. The Sanyasi avoided the wife but not the desire for the sex. The eating, drinking, sleep and sex are the four biological needs of the body. The Avadhoota lives maintaining his body without these four needs and his body is beyond the rules of the nature. His body is a divine body maintained by the super power (Maya) of the Lord. The state of Avadhoota is complete liberation and such complete salvation is possible only by the complete grace of the Lord. Avadhoota is just an inert house of the Lord. There is no soul in that body. The soul also is a part of the nature and so the soul becomes a part of the inert house of the Lord.

 

The Avadhoota thinks talks or does anything only by the will of the Lord. It is one system and not two in one. Avadhoota is one hundred percent Lord. It is the state of the goal and there is no journey further. He is called as Siddha and not Sadhaka. Even the Sanyasi is a Sadhaka who is still travelling towards that state. However, a stone can be also equated to Avadhoota because it also has complete salvation but the Lord is not dwelling in it. The Salvation must be attained through the devotion of the Lord, which will lead to the state of Avadhoota. If simple salvation is attained without devotion it will lead to the state of a stone.

 

Among the three bonds the strongest bond is the bond with the children. The wife can help in the spiritual effort (Sadhana) and therefore she is called as ‘Saha DharmaCharini’. The sex, which is a biological need, is a matter of attraction of few minutes or at the maximum few hours. This little time is negligible compared to the long lifetime and the energy dedicated to the Lord. But the bond with the children persists in all the times and requires the expenditure of the energy continuously. The Bond with the money also increases due to this bond with children. For the sake of the children people become currupt and try to rob others. In such process they are doing lot of injustice. The strength of this bond is reduced by realization and with this not only the individual salvation in the upper world is achieved, but also the justice in this world can be easily established. This is the reason why the Lord spoke about the detachment of worldly bonds for the establishment of the justice. He says that He is born to establish the Justice, but He does not speak about the rules of the Justice.

 

The Government, Police and even the courts quote the rules of Justice, which cannot establish the Justice. People are trying to misinterpret these rules and win the case. In Gita the Lord attempted for the detachment of these bonds, which are responsible for the injustice. He attacked the problem at the basic level. Therefore, the strength of the bond with the children is proportional to the injustice in the world. This bond also hinders the spiritual elevation. Unless the strongest bond is cut, salvation is impossible. Without the salvation, the single bond with the Lord is impossible. You can analyze Vyasa, Arjuna and Dhritaraashtra who are representing the three above average, average and below average levels.

 

Vyasa is the highest Guru and his birthday is celebrated as Guru Purnima. The divine prostitutes who are of the lowest level mocked such a highest Guru due to this strongest bond. Vyasa was running after his son and was mocked. He was not mocked for his bond with the divine lady called ‘Gritaachi’ because it was just a temporary bond for few minutes. She gave birth to ‘Suka’ through whom Vyasa had permanent bond for twenty years. For the sake of wife he wasted only few minutes but for the sake of son he wasted twenty years. Arjuna was also bound by this strongest bond. He was killing all his relatives on the order of the Lord. He was prepared to leave the kingdom, but when his son Abhimanyu died, he stopped the war. The war is the work of the Lord to punish the evil people. Therefore, the bond with the Lord is not stronger than the bond with his son. The Lord performed the surgery and broke this strongest bond by killing even the other children (Upa Pandavas). The Lord wanted to lift Arjuna.

 

Bhagavatgita was the medicine, which could not work to break the strongest bond. Therefore, the Lord performed the surgery and lifted Arjuna and other Pandavas also as they surrendered to Him. The Lord lifted Vyasa by preaching him through the divine prostitutes. For Vyasa the medicine was sufficient but for Arjuna surgery was required. Since Vyasa and Pandavas are His devotees, the Lord did everything for their upliftment. Dhritarashtra is not a devotee. He knows that Krishna is the Lord. He saw the Viswarupam. He advised his sons to arrange a feast and attract the Lord to help them. He tried to grab the wealth of his own brother Pandu who only conquerred the whole kingdom. When Pandu went to the forest, Dhritaraashtra was made the representative of the king. He became blind with this strongest bond and did not mind to do injustice to the son’s of his own brother.

 

The whole wealth actually belongs to his brother. If he passes an order as a king, his son cannot hinder it. He has the support of Bhishma. Bhishma took a oath that he will protect the king. Therefore he need not fear for his son. His wife Gandhari found fault always with her husband and her sons, but at the last when her children were killed she gave the curse to Lord Krishna forgetting that He is the Lord. Such is the strength of this illusory bond! Today Dhritaraashtra represents people. People are trying to earn the money for the sake of their children and they are prepared to do injustice to any extent for this. Like Dhritaraashtra they want to please the Lord by worship to help their children. Therefore if the Sadhaka can cut this strongest bond all the other two bonds can be easily cut.

 

Gopikas represent the state of a real Avadhoota. In the absence of Krishna, they forgot all the biological needs of the body and they jumped into the fire when they heard that Lord Krishna left the body. They only could cut the bond with their bodies and bond with their lives also. The Lord could cut their bonds by dancing with them, by attracting their children to do mischief and by stealing their butter. By the dance in Brindavanam (Raasakeli), the husband-wife bond was cut. Their own children stole butter on the order of Krishna and due to this the mother-child bond was cut. By giving butter to Krishna, which was their hard-earned wealth, their bond with money was also cut. Like this Gopikas only could cut all the bonds and achieved the highest grace, which is the fifteenth upper most world called Goloka.

 

In the case of Hanuman, he fought with the Lord for the sake of his mother to protect king Yayathi. Therefore Bhagavatam, which contains the story of the Gopikas at the end is the most sacred scripture, which could give salvation to Pareekshith in seven days. The very first verse of Bhagavatam speaks about this strongest bond of Vyasa. The love in these worldly bonds can be cut only by the love on the Lord. A diamond can be cut only by another diamond. These bonds with human beings can be cut only by the bond with the Lord in the form of human being only. The bond with formless God, or the bond with a form in the upper world like Vishnu and Siva, or the bond with a statue or a photo cannot cut your family bonds. These are stones, which fail to cut the diamond.

 

Gopikas could cut these human bonds by their bond with Lord Krishna who is in the human form only. Your question is very important because it deals with the actual journey towards the goal. For us neither the analysis of goal nor the analysis of a soul is so important as the analysis of the path and journey. The goal can be realized even after reaching it and need not be known now itself. Since the soul is travelling towards the goal, the soul is already not the goal. This one point is sufficient regarding the soul. All the concentration is to be put up on the analysis of the real path and the mode of the journey.

 

 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

 

Anil Antony

 

 

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

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[someguy]

Howdy dattaswami,

Lets just say that you can't just lump everyone together first. Including how each athiest believes. When you do that we are inclined to lump you with every believer.

The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), which was propagated by the sage Charvaka. Perception means the knowledge derived from the observation with the naked eyes. In fact in the logic (Tarka Sastra) all the means of knowledge are based on perception only. In the inference (Anumana) also, the fire on the hill is inferred by its smoke. But the relationship between the fire and smoke is perceived with the naked eyes only. Similarly other means of knowledge are also based on the perception only. Thus Charvaka forms the basic of the entire logic and without logic there is no knowledge. The statement that the God is above logic must be proved only by perception.

While what you say here has some merit, it doesn't apply to everyone.

 

The divine miracles performed by the human form of Lord prove that there is a power above the logic. These miracles are seen by the naked eyes. The atheists must be allowed to prove whether the miracles are simply magic tricks.

OK great prove to me that any of these miracles actually happened. I, like most of the world, did not experience these mircales.

When they cannot prove, they must accept the existence of super power above the logic. If they do not accept this they are contradicting their own basis, which is the perception.

When they can't prove what? That they understand? That is ridiculous. Why, if we yeild to a greater power everytime we couldn't figure something out we wouldn't ever figure anything out.

The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. If the experience is contradicted, the experience of the atheists is also contradicted. Therefore atheists must be open-minded and should not be conservative.

We are to assume the devotees are rational and trustworthy and have nothing to gain right?

If they are conservative they have no right to criticize the religious conservatism.

I wouldn't call it conservatism. More like rational, if someone says hey I just saw a pink elephant do you say must have been god?

The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception and therefore the logic of atheists becomes the basis of the spiritual knowledge. The Lord comes in human form and this human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Even the miracles performed by demons establish the existence of super power.

Show me some proof of miracles and we can get down to business.

Therefore to convince the atheists the miracles of the Lord are not necessary. When they are convinced about the existence of the Super power (Maya), the possessor of the Super Power, the Lord, coming in human form must be also accepted because the form is seen by the naked eyes.

Show my naked eyes some super lord and I just might believe.

The salvation is breakage of the bonds in this world. Since the bonds of this world exist based on the perception, the salvation is also existing based on the perception. Since the family members and the money are perceived by the eyes, the bonds with them are also perceived. Thus the salvation (Moksha) must be accepted by the atheists. A single bond with the human form of the Lord is called ‘Saayujya’ or ‘Kaivalya’.

By your own premise stated above I don't gotta accept nothing I didn't see.

 

Since the human form is perceived, Sayujya or Kaivalya is also perceived and must be accepted by the atheists.

Very well then I accept humans as existing.

The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. Therefore the Bliss is also true according to atheists.

OK I accept that bliss exists and not just the word even what it stands for. Just one exception all that God stuff.

Thus the goal, the means to please the Lord (Sadhana) and the fruit of Sadhana (Moksha and Kaivalya) are perceived and exist in this world itself. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ which mean that the Lord in human form is perceived by the naked eyes. Veda also says ‘Ihachet Avedeet’, which means that everything is true as seen in this world itself.

My naked eyes still await the super lord.

 

This is called ‘Jeevanmukthi’, which means attaining the salvation while one is alive and not after death. The salvation after the death is not true because that has no basis of perception. Thus if the atheists are little bit patient and leave their aggressive nature of criticism, they are best fitted in the true spiritual knowledge of Vedas.

I thought I was only going to get salvation from the bible. I will be patient and await the lord. Any idea when he will get here?

 

Later,

Some Guy

[dattaswami]

Howdy dattaswami,

Lets just say that you can't just lump everyone together first. Including how each athiest believes. When you do that we are inclined to lump you with every believer.

 

While what you say here has some merit, it doesn't apply to everyone.

 

 

OK great prove to me that any of these miracles actually happened. I, like most of the world, did not experience these mircales.

 

When they can't prove what? That they understand? That is ridiculous. Why, if we yeild to a greater power everytime we couldn't figure something out we wouldn't ever figure anything out.

 

We are to assume the devotees are rational and trustworthy and have nothing to gain right?

 

I wouldn't call it conservatism. More like rational, if someone says hey I just saw a pink elephant do you say must have been god?

 

Show me some proof of miracles and we can get down to business.

 

Show my naked eyes some super lord and I just might believe.

 

By your own premise stated above I don't gotta accept nothing I didn't see.

 

 

Very well then I accept humans as existing.

 

OK I accept that bliss exists and not just the word even what it stands for. Just one exception all that God stuff.

 

My naked eyes still await the super lord.

 

 

I thought I was only going to get salvation from the bible. I will be patient and await the lord. Any idea when he will get here?

 

Later,

Some Guy

 

Existence of God

 

The earth is not rotating by itself. Then why the fan is also not rotating by itself? As the invisible current is rotating the fan, the invisible God is rotating the earth. The rotation of earth is work of God. The earth is also the work of God. The rotation of fan is work. The fan is matter. Matter is a form of energy. Energy is work. Therefore the fan is also a form of work only. Thus everything is dynamism (work) only. The dynamo is God. You will immediately say that the dynamo is matter, matter is energy and since work is energy, dynamo is also a form of work. Then you will say God is also a form of work. This is the problem with the simile for God. Every simile is only a part of the creation and cannot stand as a perfect representation of the creator. God is beyond the concepts of work and no work because God is unimaginable.

 

You can infer the existence of God through this entire wonderful creation (work). But you cannot experience directly unless He enters a particular form of His work which is a human body like Rama, Krishna etc. You can infer the engineer by seeing the wonderful building constructed by him which is his work. But he is present only in a small room of that building. If you want to have a direct contact with him, you should search the room in which he is present. Since the whole building is his construction only, if you sit in some vacant room and try to talk with him, he will not speak to you. You have to identify that specific room in which he is present. In searching for the engineer you may find some other person in some room and can mistake him also as the engineer. Therefore you must have the knowledge of his identification.

[someguy]

 

Existence of God

 

The earth is not rotating by itself. Then why the fan is also not rotating by itself? As the invisible current is rotating the fan, the invisible God is rotating the earth. The rotation of earth is work of God. The earth is also the work of God. The rotation of fan is work. The fan is matter. Matter is a form of energy. Energy is work. Therefore the fan is also a form of work only. Thus everything is dynamism (work) only. The dynamo is God. You will immediately say that the dynamo is matter, matter is energy and since work is energy, dynamo is also a form of work. Then you will say God is also a form of work. This is the problem with the simile for God. Every simile is only a part of the creation and cannot stand as a perfect representation of the creator. God is beyond the concepts of work and no work because God is unimaginable.

 

You can infer the existence of God through this entire wonderful creation (work). But you cannot experience directly unless He enters a particular form of His work which is a human body like Rama, Krishna etc. You can infer the engineer by seeing the wonderful building constructed by him which is his work. But he is present only in a small room of that building. If you want to have a direct contact with him, you should search the room in which he is present. Since the whole building is his construction only, if you sit in some vacant room and try to talk with him, he will not speak to you. You have to identify that specific room in which he is present. In searching for the engineer you may find some other person in some room and can mistake him also as the engineer. Therefore you must have the knowledge of his identification.

I would love to stay and chat but I am having this same conversation with a christian based religious peron in another post. (Atheism and Faith) Please feel free to chime in there and read through it first.

Thanks,

Some Guy

[IDMclean]

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/ea35e074beff05fc/18048d2155932c35?hl=en

http://boards.biography.com/thread.jspa?messageID=800003388

 

I hate it when people have agendas and use prefabed arguements. It's not thinking, nor is it wisdom. It is not respectful or intellegent. You want to talk to me, or do you wish to preach at me and all who dwell on this forum? Interaction or Propaganda? Discourse or Perception adjustment?

 

It's like watching TV, I hate it cause it attempts to subvert my perceptions, it takes me for the fool and treats me as an unaware individual.

 

I have no great need to cut all that I know and hold dear from me, as if they were some kind of cancer.

[dattaswami]

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/Atheism-vs-Christianity/browse_thread/thread/ea35e074beff05fc/18048d2155932c35?hl=en

http://boards.biography.com/thread.jspa?messageID=800003388

 

I hate it when people have agendas and use prefabed arguements. It's not thinking, nor is it wisdom. It is not respectful or intellegent. You want to talk to me, or do you wish to preach at me and all who dwell on this forum? Interaction or Propaganda? Discourse or Perception adjustment?

 

It's like watching TV, I hate it cause it attempts to subvert my perceptions, it takes me for the fool and treats me as an unaware individual.

 

I have no great need to cut all that I know and hold dear from me, as if they were some kind of cancer.

 

 

Where is Lord or divine knowledge or devotion or service (which is the proof of our devotion) in your discussion. Without any of these how can you please lord?

 

Some people are even claiming to become God without touching any of the above concepts, which looks to me the climax of absurdity.

[GAHD]

Where is Lord or divine knowledge or devotion or service (which is the proof of our devotion) in your discussion. Without any of these how can you please lord?

Where is your logic? Why would KAC WANT to please what amounts to an imaginary friend for adults? :D try giving a concrete reasoning for this.;)

 

Some people are even claiming to become God without touching any of the above concepts, which looks to me the climax of absurdity.

;) Yeah i mean gees, us people...

[dattaswami]

Where is your logic? Why would KAC WANT to please what amounts to an imaginary friend for adults? :D try giving a concrete reasoning for this.;)

 

;) Yeah i mean gees, us people...

 

God is beyond logic and therefore none can analyse God. But such God comes in flesh to give His experience to us. For example Jesus came as God in flesh. Now the problem comes because Hinduism projects another God in flesh like Krishna. Krishna told that He is God. Jesus told that He is God because He and His father are one and the same. Now which God should I accept? Both of you do not permit me to do analysis. Then both of you discuss and finalise so that I will accept either Krishna or Jesus. You neither give me the conclusion nor allow me to get the conclusion!

[IDMclean]

In my case I simply state that, In my humble opinion, no individual is uniquely god. God is all permeable, such a being is above, below, and within the universe. I make no judgements outside of what I can percieve.

 

To me, from what I've read of religious texts, mostly Christian, Jesus is gods son, in that everyone is a child of god. Krishna is god, in that everyone is god. They are unique for there time and situation, in that they realized the truth.

 

For a hyper dimensional object, as most thoughts and beliefs are, every direction can be and often is every other direction. In Quantum Physics just because something exists in one state does not keep it from existing in another at the exact same time.

 

In my eyes, I can see that all is of god, in whole, and in part. That thou art god truely, Dattaswami. I do not exclude your view, for it is correct. We both see the same event, but from different distances and different angles, so we each have our truth. Though seemingly different, our truths are not mutually exclusive of the other, not unless we wish it to be, and then even then it is only excluded to the one who choses it to be so.

 

I may come off as agressive, it's just I got tired of talking to a book. I get on these forums to have a two way discussion with the people therein.

 

For example Jesus came as God in flesh. Now the problem comes because Hinduism projects another God in flesh like Krishna. Krishna told that He is God. Jesus told that He is God because He and His father are one and the same. Now which God should I accept?

 

Simple answer, both. For both are of god and therefore, are god incarnate.

[ughaibu]

Jesus, stripped of purloined sun god imagery, seems to have been a ten a penny doomsday merchant, no more psychologically or philosophically interesting than Asahara or Manson.

[dattaswami]

In my case I simply state that, In my humble opinion, no individual is uniquely god. God is all permeable, such a being is above, below, and within the universe. I make no judgements outside of what I can percieve.

 

To me, from what I've read of religious texts, mostly Christian, Jesus is gods son, in that everyone is a child of god. Krishna is god, in that everyone is god. They are unique for there time and situation, in that they realized the truth.

 

For a hyper dimensional object, as most thoughts and beliefs are, every direction can be and often is every other direction. In Quantum Physics just because something exists in one state does not keep it from existing in another at the exact same time.

 

In my eyes, I can see that all is of god, in whole, and in part. That thou art god truely, Dattaswami. I do not exclude your view, for it is correct. We both see the same event, but from different distances and different angles, so we each have our truth. Though seemingly different, our truths are not mutually exclusive of the other, not unless we wish it to be, and then even then it is only excluded to the one who choses it to be so.

 

I may come off as agressive, it's just I got tired of talking to a book. I get on these forums to have a two way discussion with the people therein.

 

 

 

Simple answer, both. For both are of god and therefore, are god incarnate.

 

We are not God

 

What is soul or Atman or causal body? Is it the awareness present in the nervous system? Or is it the inert energy present in the brain? The concept of I exists in both. The egoism ‘I’ exists as a pulse in the brain in the inert energy and the same pulse exists in nervous system being experienced. If you say that the soul is awareness, it is born every day and it dies every day. This is the soul from one angle, which is mentioned by Gita (Athachainam Nityajatam…). Please note that this view is mentioned as an angle and is never condemned by Gita. From another angle, it is the inert energy present in the brain, which is eternal as mentioned in Gita (Ajo Nityah…). Awareness in the nervous system is in the form of work. Inert energy in the brain is in the form of energy.

 

In one angle the soul is specific work and in another angle soul is inert energy. Energy and work are inter-convertible and both are the same entity in different forms. Therefore, essentially it does not matter, whether you take the soul as work or energy. According to science even the matter is a form of energy only. Therefore, the gross body, which exists in deep sleep, is as good as the inert energy in brain or as good as the awareness in the basic sense in the nervous system. The gross body made of matter, the subtle body made of pulses (whether in the state of inert energy or in the state of awareness) and the causal body which is the inert energy in the brain or awareness in the nervous system are one and the same and come under one category called as creation.

 

The condensed energy is matter. Work is another form of the same energy. A scientist does not distinguish these three states. These three are the different forms of creation and creation is different from creator. Your analysis of these three states is of no use because you are dancing only in the same medium of creation with out touching the creator. Creation itself is work. It is work of the God. The working material is energy or matter or both. Energy and matter are also different works of God only. God is unimaginable and the work is imaginable. The link between work and God is again unimaginable. The link between a person and work is imaginable because both person and work are imaginable. Thus, there is no example in this world to imagine the God or to imagine the link with His work. Only the work is imaginable through which you can be sure of the existence of God. Thus, this wonderful Universe, which is the work of the God, proves the existence of God but the analysis of Universe neither gives any information about God nor any information about the link of Universe with God. The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives the information of God nor the experience of God.

 

After realising the existence of God, you can experience God through some item of the creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe is the human being through which you can experience God and also clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every human being, every human being should clarify your doubts. In fact since you are also one of the human beings and since God is in yourself also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should have any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being only like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your doubts and through whom alone you can experience God.

 

_________________

ANIL ANTONY

 

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

[IDMclean]

http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Brahma-Jnana-is-not-the-final_5678.html

 

It's just I got tired of talking to a book

Once again not talking to me but at me. I like to be as a person, not as a microphone.

 

Perhaps not listening to my basis, either, I can't tell because you have given me another prefab, instead of addressing what was said in a direct way. I was enjoying a non-prefab. Talk to me. I am more than happy to listen.

 

Here's the deal, One of us starts with a well thought out propasition, making a base arguement, then the other begins a detailed (as possible) dissection of the given propasition, preferablly giving both point and counter-point from that person's stand point.