Michaelangelica Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 What a lot of people don't realize is that recycling is VERY expensive, in most cases more expensive than just using new resources to make a product. The only advantage recycling gives you is conservation of resources.Perhaps.I look at it like we are "Mining China" every time I recycle a bit of cardboard or other flotsam and jetsam with a "made in China" logo i.e., most 'Things' My compost/kitchen scraps recycling helps my garden, that's not expensive. Is aluminium recycling more expensive than mining bauxite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Wind power has gathered some opposition here because of the noise and the "visual polution" personally I think they look amazing but maybe not in my backyard. Sigh, here as well. Personally I love the look, I find the full sized ones amazing. Funny you should mention 'not in my backyard' I actually wanted to put one in my yard:eek: There is a company that makes smaller wind generators for personal use http://www.bergey.com/. The noise is almost nill, and their 10kW generator would pretty much supply me with all the energy I need on an annual basis. As for the industrial sized one, I would rather see them than a coal plant:doh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 If 50% of the people in the modern world had a single small wind generator, how much burden would it take off the fossil fuel power grid? I'm sure that most people wouldn't mind a small one, and it would save them some money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Sigh, here as well. Personally I love the look, I find the full sized ones amazing. Funny you should mention 'not in my backyard' I actually wanted to put one in my yard:eek: There is a company that makes smaller wind generators for personal use http://www.bergey.com/. The noise is almost nill, and their 10kW generator would pretty much supply me with all the energy I need on an annual basis. As for the industrial sized one, I would rather see them than a coal plant:doh: Coming back thru N. Dakota, near the eastern border we saw one of this type of windmill, with a few more fans/wings/whatever you call the spoke part. It was non-intrusive compared to the huge ones we saw scattered about in other places. This particular one appeared to be set in trees so the top of it came above the trees by about 30 feet. Its fans were close enough together to seem to be a wall to a passing bird, when it was spinning this day. What I understand locally is the energy is metered and if you produce more than you use, you get a check from the power company for the excess power put out onto the grid. The only real environmental issue I have heard of with these is inadvertant bird kills, which can be significant during the migrations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 If 50% of the people in the modern world had a single small wind generator, how much burden would it take off the fossil fuel power grid? I'm sure that most people wouldn't mind a small one, and it would save them some money. This is purely a guess, and would depend upon the distribution of the wind generators, but I would guess 30% to 40%. As when wind is low in one area AND the power is needed, another will be producing unused power, could be as high as 50% or 60% I suppose. Problem with the money side is the upfront cost is substantial. You really would not see a money gain for 10-20 years. And most people simply don't think that far out, or are unable to put up the upfront cost. The wind is generally strongest and most consistant about 120 feet up. Currently this works great in rural areas, but closer to cities you have city and county regulations as well as neighbors to deal with. North Iowa has fields of the industrial sized ones. They actually lease the land from farmers as the footprint is relatively small. In Minnesota you don't get a check for excess energy produced, but you get credit which is used when you draw energy. Birds are the largest concern I can see as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedars Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 In Minnesota you don't get a check for excess energy produced, but you get credit which is used when you draw energy. Birds are the largest concern I can see as well. Yes, you are credited and at the end of the year you may be given credits towards the next year or the power company purchaces the excess energy at the average purchace rate over the past year. http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentivesearch.cfm?Incentive_Code=MN01R&Search=TableType&type=Net&CurrentPageID=7&EE=0&RE=1 What is the real factor here is how much room you have to put up towers as to whether or not you 'cash in' on this power option. More towers = more cash. From this link:http://archives.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/06/14/wind.power/ "Kholhede earns up to $10,000 a year by leasing five small plots to a utility company as sites for the turbines. The same land might produce a corn crop worth little more than $100." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 The only problem is that the presence of wind is so variable. Also, my backyard is surrounded by trees, which would probably block out most of the wind. I don't see very many windmills in Florida, but when hurricane season rolls around, it wouldn't be bad to have one. I went without power for a week during Jeanne, and that's not something I want to do again. This may be off-topic but with all the media focused on Katrina it seems like no one can remember what happened to us Floridians. I had a huge tree in my front yard, it fell across my yard and crushed the driveway, instead of my house. That was scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 The only problem is that the presence of wind is so variable. Also, my backyard is surrounded by trees, which would probably block out most of the wind. I was thinking of people having small windmills on rooftops, thus eliminating the need for yardspace. Is that a feasibile idea? How much productivity do you lose when you make them smaller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I'm not sure...It seems like as long as it's turning at the same speed it would produce the same amount of energy. But a larger blade would offer more resistance...:thumbs_up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 The only problem is that the presence of wind is so variable. That is why you remain connected to the grid, so when wind does not generate enough power, the grid does. And when you generate more than enough, the excess is sent back into the grid. Also, my backyard is surrounded by trees, which would probably block out most of the wind. If you build/buy to the recommended height of 120 that is unlikely;) I don't see very many windmills in Florida, but when hurricane season rolls around, it wouldn't be bad to have one. I went without power for a week during Jeanne, and that's not something I want to do again. Completely agree, I would be very concerned about how much wind the generators can withstand before being toppled. Unfortunately the government seems to do only what is demanded of them by the people. And the peoples outrage is shaped by what they see in the media. And the media tends to show the most sensational news they can find. I wish you the best this, and the next 15 or so hurricane seasons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Is this really feasable? Power companies feed the grid based on demand, with a few percent capacity above that to cater for unexpected variations. If a sizable share of the consumers are generating power whilst still being plugged into the grid, the supplier would see a lowered demand, and will then drop supply. It would be totally pointless keeping the grid at the same supply level, because electricity in the grid isn't 'stored' like in a battery. Physical heat need to be generated via coal/oil/uranium to keep it at a level. And the coal burnt in any given second to keep the grid at a certain level is gone. So - as demand drops, so supply will drop. The supply buffer will shrink as well, otherwise coal will be burnt for no reason, making the whole effort pointless. And then one day the wind stops blowing, and now the demand is much greater than the buffer could supply. And increasing the supply isn't something that can be done in a few minutes. Nett result - brownouts and blown appliances all over the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 You should see the rush for generators and propane during hurricane season. I don't know if a generator can produce as much power as a windmill, but they come in handy in a tight spot. Another cool thing to have is a solar panel for water heating. My friend got one a few years back and it's paid for itself a couple times over. A good investment if you live as far south as we do, no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgrmdave Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 In response to Boerseun, I'm not sure. I hadn't thought about that, but my guess is that unless we had years of good wind, the energy company would never get too comfortable. Besides, in that scenario the power company could institute rolling blackouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Well, it's pretty obvious you could never depend on wind power solely. It will be a LONG time before we won't be dependant on fossil fuels. But things aren't as bad as they seem. We have more oil resources now than we did 30 years ago, we keep discovering more. And technology is paving the way for more efficient power supplies. Keep optimistic about the whole situation and things don't seem so hopeless. It's also fun to laugh at the people that are over-concerned about global warming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Is this really feasable? Power companies feed the grid based on demand, with a few percent capacity above that to cater for unexpected variations. If a sizable share of the consumers are generating power whilst still being plugged into the grid, the supplier would see a lowered demand, and will then drop supply. It would be totally pointless keeping the grid at the same supply level, because electricity in the grid isn't 'stored' like in a battery. Physical heat need to be generated via coal/oil/uranium to keep it at a level. And the coal burnt in any given second to keep the grid at a certain level is gone. So - as demand drops, so supply will drop. The supply buffer will shrink as well, otherwise coal will be burnt for no reason, making the whole effort pointless. And then one day the wind stops blowing, and now the demand is much greater than the buffer could supply. And increasing the supply isn't something that can be done in a few minutes. Nett result - brownouts and blown appliances all over the place. Hmmm, I believe it is feasable, however I don't know the inner workings of the supply side. I would think that many factors would be part of the answer. How wide of a geographical area does the power grid support (wind may vary, but I don't think it would vary the same over the entire area). What happens now when demand takes an unexpected jump? I know California has brownouts and rolling blackouts, but that is more to do with their grid than unexpected demands?? Also, as utility companies build more wind generators the supply is less reliant on coal (or nuclear). So if they need to pump more into the grid, they can rely on wind turbines which, I suspect, generate a lot quicker than burning coal. This IS a regional issue. Wind power will be more and less reliable in different areas of the country. SW Minnesota is a great place for wind power, especially in the winter. At 120 is is also very reliable (much more so than at ground level). Some areas may not have reliable wind generation capabilities. So for those, wind is not such a good option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zythryn Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 It's also fun to laugh at the people that are over-concerned about global warming. Can I remind you of this in 5 years? :thumbs_up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDMclean Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 We have more oil resources now than we did 30 years ago, we keep discovering more. Oil Consumption Worldwide Natrual Gas Consomption Worldwide I don't remember source but I do believe that America's Oil consumption has like doubled every 10 years for like the past century... Can't say the same for our oil supplies. Worse is that China and India look like their going to get in on the Industrialized Rat Race. We have little over 260 Million People, they combined have a little over 2.3 Billion people... Imagine 1/10 of them consuming oil like us americans do. Sorry but Oil ain't going to last much longer unless we get new Reserves... I hear Titan's got hydrocarbons. (China: 1,313,973,713)(India: 1,095,351,995) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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