Look what the cat dragged in...

[Cedars]

I'm not completely disagreeing with you Cedars. We both enoy birdwatching. and small mammal observing..

 

My point being what about RATS and MICE???

You are upset when some animals are killed

, but maybe not another...Is killing rats and mice around your house a bad thing??

Cats kill those and therefore have benefitted humanity..

 

It was the Catholic condemnation of cats, for believed to be witches pets, and their subsequent killing of cats which perpetuated the spread of Bubonic plague..??!! :shrug:

Dumb-*** Preaching of the time..

 

before they knew it was the mice and rats spreading it...

 

Mother Natures Revenge...:(

 

which is one more reason I am disgusted with Catholicism.

 

That being said, the bottom line is Spay and Neuter!

Balance with everything is desired. :)

 

Dogs usually lack the slyness and quiet of the pounce to kill other animals... which is why they make a poor comparison.

Wolves and other Packs of dogs usually work together to bring down larger prey., a different matter altogether when compared to domestic house cats.

 

I did say that I have no quarrel with cats killing mice in the home itself. I dont think dead rats are an issue either. This cat which inspired this thread by its actions is killing more than that. And I am not upset about what the cat is doing, what irks me is its owners responce. "oh well, thats what cats do" is the standard argument that people make when they are not willing to take responsiblity for their pet. Its no different with the irresponsible dog owner. Its no different than the parent of the bully child (he/she is just being a kid).

 

I suppose I could have just dismissed your "hey they are just little lions, tigers, etc" but I chose to use that example and compare it to domestic dogs and our responsiblity to the neighborhood. I would also like to point out that in the wild, dog/wolf packs are family units, and lion prides are packs of cats. A researcher in Brittan observed barn cats displaying the same attributes of a lion pride. I couldnt find a link but it was a very interesting program shown on PBS a few years ago, and most recently on the Science channel. And as far as dogs (a poor comparison?) hunting larger animals, your not saying that its only bad when big animals are killed by domestic predators are you? The analogy still holds true regardless of the evolved method of killing. Dogs who kill are still domestic predators whos owner has the responsiblity to prevent the occurance and opportunity for these events.

 

If anyone chooses to own a cat, they have the same obligation to their neighbors. They have the same obligation to the wildlife who are not causing damage. Cats who hunt are indiscriminate killers. Cat owners have the obligation to the cat itself to keep it from getting into trouble.

 

As far as the plague and cats and rats, there is ongoing debate as to whether or not the large scale death was caused by the Yersinia bacterium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

[Drip Curl Magic]

Please dont try the "Oh but cats are different" argument. It wont hold water with me being as I have confined cats, have friends who have cat kennels and know several people (including my grandfather) who had cats trained to walk on leashes and took their pets for walks every night (weather permitting).

Despite what you say... they are very different creatures. They are not fully dependant on humans. whereas dogs are entirely dependant on humans. I can't let my dogs roam free around the neighborhood because 1-there is a good chance my dogs will get disoriented and forget how to get home. 2- Dogs are probably much more likely to get hit by cars, since they've less of an instict to hide from anything (due to humans spoiling them to the point where they have no predators to worry about)

As far as how you feel about owning animals, your interpretation of domestic animals and the requirements by their owners run contrary to established guides for responsible pet ownership. Owning an animal is not much different than being a parent with the responsiblities that entails. Its not people living in certain areas that have a responsiblity, its the behavior of your animal and your responsiblity for it.

hmm...

You cat is killing animals (and I appreciate your honesty about the wide variety its killing). By your post, its not killing the bunnies for food. So your tale of how you just cut down on the amount of food doesnt stand ground either. Cutting down on the food would encourage the animal to kill, yet you post that you wish it wouldnt kill the bunnies. But you dont want to take the extra effort to really prevent, or minimize the killing of these very same bunnies.

mmm, you're absolutely right. Cutting back food is definately a negative. Point taken.

Do you realize that if you had confined your cat for a lousy two weeks, those bunnies would have probably been able to evade your cat?

hmmm... I don't know a lot about bunny reproduction. I don't know if there is a specific time window that bunnys have to reproduce.... but I'm pretty sure that even if these bunnys were given long enough to grow big enough to evade my cat... there would probably be a whole new batch of baby bunnys for my cat to feed on when I finally do let him outside again. There are lots of bunnys reproducing in the creek running alongside my house.

How many cats have you owned? By your picture you dont seem to be very old so I wonder about this. You state many, so are they still alive? If not, what happened to them? I have owned 3 cats in the last 20 years and two of them are still alive. The one who died, died of cancer.

Yes, I've only been around for the last 17 rotations of earth around the sun. But my family and I have always owned many animals. My mother often reffers to my house as a hectic zoo. I've had 5 cats in my short life-span. 4 of them are still alive and kickin'. The one that died got hit by a car in my old neighborhood in san jose(it was a fairly bust neighborhood and we tried the best we could to keep our cats inside).

 

I understand where both you and Drip Curl are comming from. I guess I was lucky to be brought up in an environment where these things were so ingrained in my life. I have no quarrel with cats killing mice in a persons house. But this is not what occured. 4 bunnies were killed by this one cat and none of this occured in the house. Drip Curl has added other species of animal this cat has killed. I am sure it was not an all inclusive list either.

 

I assure you it was all inclusive. Except for the little cockroaches that my little Takara (indoor cat) catches. But besides that, I included every species that i could remember all of my cats killing (not just this one cat).

 

It is definatly not the cats fault. I agree totally with you there. But it is the owners fault. One bunny? OK these things happen. But to ignore the history of this cat is to be irresponsible as a pet owner. Many people do not think about (or choose to ignore) the effects on the neighborhood that their one kitty does. Many people do not realize how many others do not like the neighbors cat coming over and killing things or peeing on the house, plants, etc (spraying). Many people do not realize how many people kill cats on sight.

But you don't know my cat or my neighborhood. He really doesn't like to stray far from home. And most likely, he picked those bunnys off from our backyard. I know that my cat won't hunt anything unless it practically walks right into it's teeth.

Furthermore, there are literally hundreds of these bunnys in my neighborhood. Especially during this time of year. I doubt my neighbors mind my cat killing a few of them. Sure, it's sad to see dead bunnys on my porch.... but I feel that it is my resposiblity to liberate my animals as much as I possibly can.

You can call it wrong if you want, but the responsiblity lies with the owner who has allowed his/her pet to roam without thinking about the potential risks. I remember reading in a local paper a few years ago (probably about 10 years ago now) about cats showing up in the garbage, dead and stuffed into bird food bags. The article advised people to keep their cats indoors because someone seemed to be very angry. You would be surprised at how many letters to the editor followed with people complaining about roaming cats and what could they do.

I live in a small town where just about everyone knows eachother. I know all my neighbors. My neighbors know me.My nieghbors know my pets. My neighbors probably wouldn't hurt my cat. I'm sure he'll be fine.

As far as cats being teeny versions of lions, etc fine. So dogs fall under that arena also but you wont be arguing for their (dogs) unrestrained killing of wildlife will you?

Well, most dogs that are trained properly won't kill other animals. They've lost the instinct to kill for food. They are handed food. And have been for so long that the only food they know how to hunt down on their own is old rotten food from a trash can or something. Most dogs who get outside and attack or kill other beings are dogs that were beaten by their owners. Dogs are taught how to hurt and kill. Cats have it in their instincts.

 

Another point I must bring up. Lets go back to your argument about the comparison of raising kids and raising pets....

 

(I understand that it's not very scientific to compare the psychology of a cat and the psychology of a child, but---)

 

Lets look at kids... parents who never let their kids have sugar or chocolate of any kind while they are growing up, are untimately just causing their child more problems in the long run. They try to keep their kids away from chocolate to keep them healthy.... but doing this causes the child to think of chocolate as some amazingly mysterious forbidden fruit. What's even worse, is it's right in front of them ALL THE TIME. And this causes them to want it even more. And when they finally turn 18 and move out... all of a sudden... chocolate is within grasp... whenever they want it. Then, they try it for the first time. It instantly becomes one of their favorite things to eat. Within a year or two, they have become incredibly unhealthy from all the sweets they eat.

 

Now, let me tell you a story about one of my indoor cats. She was raised as an indoor cat because of the area that we lived in at the time that we got her. She was facinated with the outside world. She'd spend hours staring out the sliding glass door. She wanted to hunt critters outside so badly. And she was constantly trying to sneak out. One day, she slipped past one of my family members without being noticed. My family and I worried sick about her because she'd been gone for 3 days. On one of the days that my mother decided to go outside and call her for a few minutes, she heard our cat meow from inside some bushes in our yard. Then she came walking out of the bushes with one of her hind legs dangling from side to side. my mother panics and immediately drove her to the vet. She had some surgery and wore a cute little pink cast for a while over the leg and made a full recovery. Now she wants nothing to do with the outdoors.

 

But the point of the story is- she wasn't aloud to go outside and hunt prey. She sat in windowcills and chattered her teeth all day at passing birds and squirrels. When she got out, she went nuts.... just like kids when they finally get their first tast of the forbidden chocolate. Sure, human minds are different than cat minds.... but to deny any being of something that is being displayed right in fornt of them... is ultimately not good. My cat would have died all because she didn't understand what it was like outdoors. To have to deal with predators such as cars. She never met anything that wanted to hurt her. She assumed everything to be dandy in the outside world. And it is probably why she got that broken leg.

 

This is also relevant with my outdoor cat because if I were to restrict my cat from the outside world, he'd certainly want to get outside, prowl, and hunt that much more. And what if he gets out one day and just goes on a rampage... killing multiple bunnys at once? of course this isn't incredibly legible as I have no scientific proof of the relation between pet psychology and child psychology... but I think it's something to consider.

[Turtle]

My city/county laws require that pet dogs not roam free, but allows peoples' pet cats to roam. My city/county laws also allows any resident to set a live trap & catch any cats or dogs in their yard & take them to the pound; the county even rents these traps.

Besides killing wildlife, roaming cats leave their crap in neighborhood yards & gardens. Thanks for nothin'.

The reasoning behind the law is clear; pets are a nuisance to the community, but it's an emotional issue so ride the fence so to speak. I think letting cats or other pets out un-restrained in an urban setting is wrong; moreover I think even keeping these animals in an urban setting is wrong.

Mind you I don't dislike these animals & have kept them myself; I know better now. For what it costs to feed, medicate, shelter, etc. a pet per month, I have to wonder how many hungry & sick people in the community that money might help.:hyper:

On the mice bit, city/county laws have ordinances requiring control of these animals, & it generally involves using poison, not cats. This means if your area is following the law, a ranging cat also faces a risk of catching a rodent dying of poison. and so a risk of poisoning itself.

[Cedars]

Snipped content for post size

 

Despite what you say... they are very different creatures. They are not fully dependant on humans. whereas dogs are entirely dependant on humans.

 

I've had 5 cats in my short life-span. 4 of them are still alive and kickin'. The one that died got hit by a car in my old neighborhood in san jose(it was a fairly bust neighborhood and we tried the best we could to keep our cats inside).

 

I assure you it was all inclusive. But besides that, I included every species that i could remember all of my cats killing (not just this one cat).

 

I doubt my neighbors mind my cat killing a few of them. Sure, it's sad to see dead bunnys on my porch.... but I feel that it is my resposiblity to liberate my animals as much as I possibly can.

 

I live in a small town where just about everyone knows eachother. My neighbors probably wouldn't hurt my cat. I'm sure he'll be fine.

 

(I understand that it's not very scientific to compare the psychology of a cat and the psychology of a child, but---)

 

Now, let me tell you a story about one of my indoor cats. One day, she slipped past one of my family members without being noticed. My family and I worried sick about her because she'd been gone for 3 days. She came walking out of the bushes with one of her hind legs dangling from side to side.

 

She sat in windowcills and chattered her teeth all day at passing birds and squirrels. To have to deal with predators such as cars. She never met anything that wanted to hurt her. And it is probably why she got that broken leg.

 

This is also relevant with my outdoor cat because if I were to restrict my cat from the outside world, he'd certainly want to get outside, prowl, and hunt that much more.

 

Do you understand the intelligence of animals? We have problems in my area with people driving out here and turning their dogs (and cats) loose in the country. Many do learn to hunt. Some of them learn very fast.

 

I see a whole lot more cats dead along the road than I do dogs so maybe the cat death toll is due to laws (dog leash laws) more than animal insight into cars.

 

As far as cats wanting to go outside, of course they do. My cats beg all the time to go out. They chatter their little teeth in the window, crouch down, ears back, when chipmunks, birds, squirrels ect are so close to the window, it would be an easy pounce.

 

On occasion they do sneek out onto the porch, so I can see how that could happen. That is an accident and accidents happen. I am not talking about unintended events, I am talking about willfully allowing pets to roam and kill simply because its a cat and, well you know, it really doesnt matter, attitudes.

 

The point of the parent/kid comment was the responsiblity factor.

 

The paper with the article about dead cats. If you combine the number of persons in the three towns this paper circulates. Less than 5,000 at that time. So thats what? Around 1,600 average for each town. Not big towns either.

 

I did not suggest you cannot let your cat outside and I offered ideas where you can have that for your pets and present a responsible approach to the issues of domestic predators and neighborhood courtesy.

 

But your whole post rings with this: "Oh well, thats what cats do" and is the standard argument that people make when they are not willing to take responsiblity for their pet. Not reasons, just excuses.

[Drip Curl Magic]

Snipped content for post size

 

 

 

Do you understand the intelligence of animals? We have problems in my area with people driving out here and turning their dogs (and cats) loose in the country. Many do learn to hunt. Some of them learn very fast.

 

I see a whole lot more cats dead along the road than I do dogs so maybe the cat death toll is due to laws (dog leash laws) more than animal insight into cars.

 

As far as cats wanting to go outside, of course they do. My cats beg all the time to go out. They chatter their little teeth in the window, crouch down, ears back, when chipmunks, birds, squirrels ect are so close to the window, it would be an easy pounce.

 

On occasion they do sneek out onto the porch, so I can see how that could happen. That is an accident and accidents happen. I am not talking about unintended events, I am talking about willfully allowing pets to roam and kill simply because its a cat and, well you know, it really doesnt matter, attitudes.

 

The point of the parent/kid comment was the responsiblity factor.

 

The paper with the article about dead cats. If you combine the number of persons in the three towns this paper circulates. Less than 5,000 at that time. So thats what? Around 1,600 average for each town. Not big towns either.

 

I did not suggest you cannot let your cat outside and I offered ideas where you can have that for your pets and present a responsible approach to the issues of domestic predators and neighborhood courtesy.

 

But your whole post rings with this: "Oh well, thats what cats do" and is the standard argument that people make when they are not willing to take responsiblity for their pet. Not reasons, just excuses.

 

I really don't think I'm being that irrisponsible.

 

I suppose my views derive from my hippy at heart nature. I love the outdoors. I already feel guilty when I think about how humans have taken animals out of the wild and domesticated them. I really wish I could just set all the animals free. I, myself wish I could run through the forest and hunt for my own food. But do I really NEED to? of course not... but it'd be so much better than living among all these spoiled humans. I don't NEED to make bear jerky in the woods... but I can't help but want to. And just the same for cats... he doesn't NEED to be killing... since he's got a home and a loving family that feeds him. I'm giving my cat the same freedom I believe all humans should have.... but don't. I think at this point in time... humans are getting pretty screwed up... because of the LACK of survival skills required to be human. I think in the long run this is gonna kill us. I don't think we should bring animals down with us, if we can help prevent it.

 

But humans ****ed up. And now, cats and dogs (especially dogs) have way less of a chance at surviving in the wild on it's own. All because of human pampering.

 

And if your location's environment supports it, I say let the cat hang loose a little. It's not gonna hurt the environment as much as you think it is. Especially not in the area I live in. I can't lock my cat up. I can't lock anything up. And taking it for walks wouldn't help how bad I'd feel. He still wouldn't be free. His outside time would be regulated and controlled. That's not cool at all. I'd be the prison guard and he'd be the prisoner. Except, unlike the people in an actual prison, he didn't do anything to deserve to be locked up.

[Cedars]

 

I suppose my views derive from my hippy at heart nature. I love the outdoors. I already feel guilty when I think about how humans have taken animals out of the wild and domesticated them. I really wish I could just set all the animals free. I, myself wish I could run through the forest and hunt for my own food. But do I really NEED to? of course not... but it'd be so much better than living among all these spoiled humans. I don't NEED to make bear jerky in the woods... but I can't help but want to. And just the same for cats... he doesn't NEED to be killing... since he's got a home and a loving family that feeds him. I'm giving my cat the same freedom I believe all humans should have.... but don't. I think at this point in time... humans are getting pretty screwed up... because of the LACK of survival skills required to be human. I think in the long run this is gonna kill us. I don't think we should bring animals down with us, if we can help prevent it.

 

But humans ****ed up. And now, cats and dogs (especially dogs) have way less of a chance at surviving in the wild on it's own. All because of human pampering.

 

And if your location's environment supports it, I say let the cat hang loose a little. It's not gonna hurt the environment as much as you think it is. Especially not in the area I live in. I can't lock my cat up. I can't lock anything up. And taking it for walks wouldn't help how bad I'd feel. He still wouldn't be free. His outside time would be regulated and controlled. That's not cool at all. I'd be the prison guard and he'd be the prisoner. Except, unlike the people in an actual prison, he didn't do anything to deserve to be locked up.

 

Maybe someday you will take the opportunity to go and live as a hunter/gatherer. You can. I know several people who have done this for a various periods of time. All of them look back on the experience as a positive, but have established for themselves that modern life isnt as bad as their romatic idealisms of the past they held in their youth. Your nearing the legal age where you can make this quest a reality. Go for it. Chances are it will be a very good experience for you as it was for the people I know who have attempted this in various degrees.

 

Back to the original post...

 

There are people who shouldnt own animals. You see their animals tied up or kenneled day after day, alone, the only interaction they get is a few minutes each day when an owner tosses some food into their bowl and fills their water. That is the condition equal to a prison and it is cruel. Being a house cat/dog is not the same thing. People interact with the house pet. There is stimulation for these pets. There is variety for these pets, whether its from new toys, different foods, sleeping in the sun in the window, having their own spot on the couch, or the mostly pleasant encounters with the house having company (new people to meet). Its not prison, its more like day care, 24/7.

 

I appreciate the fact you read each of my posts and considered its content. Maybe in the future you will come to the understanding that I tried to present. Maybe when your out on your own and selecting an animal companion for your self you will think back on some of these posts and give it a try. Taking your cat for a walk. Building a cat kennel with all kinds of climbing / hiding spots. A place where your cat can be safe from the potential harm that exists in a world of people. If you start them out this way, they accept it because companion animals like to interact with people. They like to please the people they live with.