"Roswell" Why do they lie?

[TheBigDog]

Very well, so nothing crashed at roswell but there have just been too many claims of U.F.O.'s , U.S.O.'s, abductions, visitors, hyrogliphs dipicting what could be a flying craft , I just have to keep thinking that we're missing something. We tend to see what we want to and dismiss what we cant explain. As with death it can only be three things, what religion tells us, heaven and hell, what the atheist say... a light bulb going out , or something we never would have imagined!

Very nice summary. I would just caution that the third option "something we never would have imagined" contains many options. But they cannot all be considered equally plausible. Even with a shortage of evidence, we can use reason to create a plausible short list of possibilities.

 

Bill

[Celeste]

I'm a skeptic, but what I find remarkable is that all those that I have known, including my father, that have been "involved" with Roswell at some point, refuse to discuss anything.

I have questioned my father relentlessly about Roswell for the past 30 years as well as about Area 51, (he worked there for awhile) and he absolutely refuses to discuss one detail.

Being that he and I are so close and discuss everything under the sun without hesitation, I find it somewhat unnerving that Roswell and Area 51 are a closed subject with him. He quite frankly told me a few months ago that anything to do with either one, goes to the grave with him. The same was said by my better halves father. Personally, I don't understand the need to be so secretive, even now, 60 years later. As far as Roswell goes, lets see that weather ballon, documents, etc. and put everything to rest.

[Akw2000]

Very nice summary. I would just caution that the third option "something we never would have imagined" contains many options. But they cannot all be considered equally plausible. Even with a shortage of evidence, we can use reason to create a plausible short list of possibilities.

 

Bill

 

I think that he meant possibilities outside of our logic with that third option. Something that we can't apply mathematics to or anything we can possibly imagine. The possibillity that something not cause-effect will happen, aka "magic". Something impossible according to our brains, but then again, we are not almighty, we are basically programmed to look for patterns everywere, we might be wrong in our assumption that everything has to act in a logical manner.

[Boerseun]

I have questioned my father relentlessly about Roswell for the past 30 years as well as about Area 51, (he worked there for awhile) and he absolutely refuses to discuss one detail.

There are quite a few government facilities I can think of that would require 100% secrecy from its employees. Research into advanced aircraft might be one of them, and the appearance of previously unknown and unseen flying shapes around such a facility would sprout alien theories and UFO stories, and how the government is covering it all up.

 

However I might want there to be aliens, I think statistically the chances are incredibly small to non-existant of aliens ever having been here at all, at Area 51 or any place else on Earth.

[openmindshutmouth]

First I would like say to to Boerseun, love the the kegway and your quote!

Now, I still must go on to think that something did happen at Roswell and I like to think they are from the future.Science is great but you still have to "dream" a little thats how we figure things out. Not everything is black and white or has to be logical, look at the platypus. A mammal that lays eggs. I think God was riding Boerseun's kegway the day he made that thing!

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by Boerseun:

There are quite a few government facilities I can think of that would require 100% secrecy from its employees.

 

I agree...but, for curiosity sake, I would be happy with a simple "no such thing" from him when I asked about UFO's and aliens. I've seen some really strange things in my life, but when it comes to UFO's from outer space, I've remained pretty skeptical.

 

However, I do believe there was more to 'The Roswell Incident' then a high-tech weather balloon. A few questions that still need to be addressed:

 

1. What type of balloon could scatter debris over an area three-quarters of a mile long and create a 500-foot long/10-foot wide gouge in the tough shale and slate stone?

2. Why were there seven confirmed flights to transport the remains of a "balloon"?

3. If the object was nothing more than a weather balloon, or even a Project Mogul device, why would a full blown Colonel (Blanchard) actually set up operations at the recovery site along with armed guards surrounding the inner gouge area, another cordon around the perimeter, riflemen posted on the surrounding hills, and MPs stationed on the outlying roads from Saturday, July 5, through at least Thursday, the 10th?

4. Why did a special team from Washington, D.C., under the command of Col. Anton Hansen, arrive at Roswell to photograph the recovery and record the subsequent events?

5. Why were 2 Secret Service agents (McCann and Devinnes) dispatched from Washington to represent the president in Roswell during the incident?

6. If Mogul was as highly classified as the Air Force maintains, which evidently led to the misidentification in Roswell, how is it that they invited the press to photograph this missing, top-secret balloon in Ramey’s office and promote the publication of seven different pictures in practically every major newspaper throughout the country?

7. And most importantly, why do retired members of the military today, years after the Air Force Project Mogul and Crash Dummy Reports, still refuse to break their oaths of secrecy concerning the Roswell incident?

[Boerseun]

Hmmm, interesting. I wasn't aware of those facts.

 

There are a few possible scenarios, if we keep the paranoia of the early Cold War years in mind.

 

1) It could have been an American nuclear bomber that came down, and the federal government didn't want the population to know that bombers armed with nukes were flying over American soil and can actually crash, with their payload. Seeing as the bomb didn't go off on impact, they had to have seriously specialised personnel to recover what was left without detonation and/or radioactive spilling.

 

2) It could have been a Soviet spy plane that came down, and the federal government didn't want the people to know that Soviets are flying over their airspace.

 

In both these possible scenarios, the UFO-rumour might have actually helped them hide the truth. The government would prefer the people to believe they're covering up aliens rather than let them know that nuclear weapons were flying overhead and/or Soviets were spying overhead.

 

Back then, the paranoia towards the Communists/Russians was real, and bad, and perpetuating the UFO myth might have helped to hide the truth that the States weren't infallible when it came to protecting their nuclear inventory, or in protecting the US from Soviet espionage.

[CraigD]

1. What type of balloon could scatter debris over an area three-quarters of a mile long and create a 500-foot long/10-foot wide gouge in the tough shale and slate stone?

There’s no concrete evidence that such a gouge existed. The few contemporary accounts describe it as anything from a crater containing a nearly intact spacecraft to similar to what Celeste describes to “singed, not burned” grass. When asked by subsequent examiners to be shown the gouge, the apparent source of the description, Bill Brazel claimed that it had “grassed over and healed up” within a couple of years of its creation.

 

I believe Brazel, and others who claim to have seen the gouge, are embellishing and/or outright inventing it.

2. Why were there seven confirmed flights to transport the remains of a "balloon"?

Sources? Who confirmed this, and how?

3. If the object was nothing more than a weather balloon, or even a Project Mogul device, why would a full blown Colonel (Blanchard) actually set up operations at the recovery site along with armed guards surrounding the inner gouge area, another cordon around the perimeter, riflemen posted on the surrounding hills, and MPs stationed on the outlying roads from Saturday, July 5, through at least Thursday, the 10th?

4. Why did a special team from Washington, D.C., under the command of Col. Anton Hansen, arrive at Roswell to photograph the recovery and record the subsequent events?

5. Why were 2 Secret Service agents (McCann and Devinnes) dispatched from Washington to represent the president in Roswell during the incident?

I’m unable to speculate about, or confirm or deny that these claims are accurate. When attempting to confirm that an objectively real event has occurred, I think it’s best to confine the evidence to concrete, verifiable things, such as debris and marks in the ground. However, because it’s been widely published, and can be attributed to authenticated Mogul staff, I’ll reply to the question

6. If Mogul was as highly classified as the Air Force maintains, which evidently led to the misidentification in Roswell, how is it that they invited the press to photograph this missing, top-secret balloon in Ramey’s office and promote the publication of seven different pictures in practically every major newspaper throughout the country?

that the identification of the balloon debris as “just a weather balloon”, and openness with the press, appears to have been an attempt to convince the public, including any Soviet intelligence analysts, that the debris was “just a weather balloon”, not anything related to a project to spy on the Soviet Union.

7. And most importantly, why do retired members of the military today, years after the Air Force Project Mogul and Crash Dummy Reports, still refuse to break their oaths of secrecy concerning the Roswell incident?

I don’t know why some do, while others, notably late retired Army Major Jesse Marcel, don’t. As above, I don’t think an investigation of the motives and psychology of these people is a productive approach to answering an essentially forensic question.

1) It could have been an American nuclear bomber that came down, and the federal government didn't want the population to know that bombers armed with nukes were flying over American soil and can actually crash, with their payload. Seeing as the bomb didn't go off on impact, they had to have seriously specialised personnel to recover what was left without detonation and/or radioactive spilling.

 

2) It could have been a Soviet spy plane that came down, and the federal government didn't want the people to know that Soviets are flying over their airspace.

Though plausible sounding, I don’t believe there’s evidence to support either of these explanations. From my youthful experience in the Civil Air Patrol, I’ve found that even very small aircraft crash sites are nearly impossible to completely clean up – in particular, I’ve revisited crash sites after 20 years, and discovered foam and fiber material still lodged in undergrowth. Given the intense interest in the Roswell debris, I find it difficult to believe that, if an aircraft had crashed on the Brazel ranch in 7/1947, such debris would not have been found by several independent searchers.

[TheBigDog]

7. And most importantly, why do retired members of the military today, years after the Air Force Project Mogul and Crash Dummy Reports, still refuse to break their oaths of secrecy concerning the Roswell incident?

Honor.

[Cedars]

I cant figure out why they were not searching for their top secret, crashed balloon, missing nuke, whatever it was they lost until a rancher reported it/something was found.

[Boerseun]

Another possible explanation might be that it was simply a dry-run.

 

Back then, the US was threatened by the Soviets, and with Cuba on their doorstep, anything could happen.

 

So they made contingency plans for a lot of possible sccenarios, and I suppose UFO's might have featured into it as well. At that time, space and anything to do with space was cutting edge. The Soviets have just launched Sputniks 1, 2 and 3, and speculation of what else might be in space was rife.

 

But a contingency plan is useless if you don't know if all the gears will mesh. A full-blown, full-scale dry-run would be needed. So they did it. And they had to invent cover stories, I suppose to see what the people will and will not buy in the case of a real incident.

 

I'm just speculating here, but in my mind, this could be a very real explanation of what happened there.

[Abstruce]

Another possible explanation might be that it was simply a dry-run.

 

Back then, the US was threatened by the Soviets, and with Cuba on their doorstep, anything could happen.

 

So they made contingency plans for a lot of possible sccenarios, and I suppose UFO's might have featured into it as well. At that time, space and anything to do with space was cutting edge. The Soviets have just launched Sputniks 1, 2 and 3, and speculation of what else might be in space was rife.

 

But a contingency plan is useless if you don't know if all the gears will mesh. A full-blown, full-scale dry-run would be needed. So they did it. And they had to invent cover stories, I suppose to see what the people will and will not buy in the case of a real incident.

 

I'm just speculating here, but in my mind, this could be a very real explanation of what happened there.

 

Boerseun

 

I do not know what happened on that day in 1947.

 

How could the most advanced nuclear base of the U.S. Air force, not know the reality of the facts, upon the press release they issued just after the recovery?

 

I lived in Alamogordo, New Mexico for ten years. I did have a sighting one night at about 2am as I was driving by White Sands Missile Range on my way home from the lake. The two glowing orbs hovered approximately 80 feet off the ground at a distance of about 700 feet from HWY 70. My wife awoke when I pulled off the highway to observe the objects. We both exited the vehicle and stood in amazement as these two objects made no noise. They hovered for approximately three to four minutes they began to glow very bright and they just disappeared.

 

No more than 30 seconds latter two f-16 fighters in full afterburner flew just over our heads no more than 300 feet in altitude.

 

I requested information from the National Air Guard whom dispatched the two F-16s, the informed me that there had been no training missions from Holloman or the Guard and that was all they could tell me.

 

What ever the two objects were is unknown, what I do know is, two F-16 fighters were trying to intercept and had no chance.

 

 

JQ

[Abstruce]

Honor.

 

Yea right!!!!!!!!!:shade:

 

 

FEAR :cup: is more likely the reason.

[CraigD]

How could the most advanced nuclear base of the U.S. Air force, not know the reality of the facts, upon the press release they issued just after the recovery?

According to the Air Force’s 1995 “Roswell Report” (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/roswell.pdf , 1000 pages, 87MB), Roswell staff, even those of sufficient rank and security clearance to be aware, were unaware of the existence of project Mogul, due to the secrecy doctrine of compartmentalization. According to one interviewee, “weapon delivery” people rarely knew of the activities of “weapon detection” people.

 

I’ll restate, however: what is the point of examining the details of 60-year-old military security policies, to answer a question about the presence of recoverable, physical material?

[Abstruce]

According to the Air Force’s 1995 “Roswell Report” (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/roswell.pdf , 1000 pages, 87MB), Roswell staff, even those of sufficient rank and security clearance to be aware, were unaware of the existence of project Mogul, due to the secrecy doctrine of compartmentalization. According to one interviewee, “weapon delivery” people rarely knew of the activities of “weapon detection” people.

 

I’ll restate, however: what is the point of examining the details of 60-year-old military security policies, to answer a question about the presence of recoverable, physical material?

 

They were not briefed about Mogul true.

 

To say they were not able to identify aluminum foil and a balloon properly, further more to issue a press release stating the recovery of a crashed disk.

 

How much incompetence do you really think existed in our most advanced military base of the time?

 

After meeting with Lazar, I know otherwise and the physical evidence is there to prove it.

 

JQ

[TheBigDog]

To say they were not able to identify aluminum foil and a balloon properly, further more to issue a press release stating the recovery of a crashed disk.

 

How much incompetence do you really think existed in our most advanced military base of the time?

My guess is that the "UFO" thing was a poorly chosen cover story. But was helpful in keeping attention away from the real secrets that were being hidden. That being project Mogul. Why do you keep saying that this was the most advanced military base of the time?

After meeting with Lazar, I know otherwise and the physical evidence is there to prove it.

Would you care to share what this proof is?

 

Bill

[Abstruce]

My guess is that the "UFO" thing was a poorly chosen cover story. But was helpful in keeping attention away from the real secrets that were being hidden. That being project Mogul. Why do you keep saying that this was the most advanced military base of the time?

 

Would you care to share what this proof is?

 

Bill

 

Sure it is element 115 copper in color very dense and stable.

 

Lazar holds it in his possession for several reasons one is that it gives him leverage with those who wish him harm.

 

I spent some time in NM with Lazar we prospected for some uranium.

I tell you this Lazar is one of the sharpest minds I have ever had the pleasure of meetings. He is legit and his story leads to what the Government doesn’t want you to know.

 

JQ