After Life vs. Science

[OpenMind5]

Ok, It is hard for me to do a follow up after starting the big debate of god. I have offically pulled myself from the convorsation and feel as if i must draw attention to a question that seemed to arise during the discution. That is afterlife...There are many different stroies and ideas. Lets hear them all! I want everyones opion and I know i will get them. You guys (and gals) never seem to let me down. So here is the question in a nut shell so we don't stray far...(I also learned orgainzation is a good thing.)

 

1) Is there an after life? (Your ideas and thoughts on the exsisting or non exsiting)

2) Is there any proof or disproof?

*When i say afterlife i mean once you die...what happens to you (soul)*

3) Does a human have a soul? (No, not part of your foot!)

4) Does your ideas of no afterlife or a afterlife influence your behavior?

5) (my luck number) Heaven, Hell. There are two place one may go when dead...at least according to my religion...is there more? Is there less? Expand your mind to the limitless possiblities.

 

(In my last big postings...there was a large argument on proof and actual measurmenst ect... that could prove certain things {if you have not visted my god post by now...please do and try to keep up with it...thats a fun one, but my interests in that disscussion has ended} I ask that proof not be a big deal in these posts to come. This a and idea thing where ideas are read and made fun of later. Just kidding...or am I? If you have proof...please, by all means...PLease put it in with your opion. It you post a site address...please include a small summary of the site and what we will be looking at/reading. Thank you all....

 

OP5 (my nick name in case you didn't know)

(please ignore all spelling errors)

[Tormod]

OP5, thank you for starting a new thread on this - the other thread was getting a bit long winded...

 

Here are my initial thoughts on this:

 

1) No, there is no afterlife. Consciousness is not separate from the body, and dies with it.

2) I think this is the kind of thing which can be "proven" htis way or that, but not scientifically (unless one calls the movie "Flatliners" scientific)

3) No, I do not believe in a soul - at least not if the definition is "something separate from the body" like Descartes's rational soul.

4) Well, since I don't believe in an afterlife I at least have no consolation that there will be a heaven, nor a threat of a hell. I don't think much about these things. I live my life as best I can, knowing that when I die that's it.

5) There is no heaven, no hell - except here on Earth.

 

As for your proof statement - if you don't want this to turn into a proof discussion, why even ask for it (question 2)?

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

This is just a follow-up post to avoid my post count to stay at 666 which could spell disaster...

 

Tormod

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

This is just a follow-up post to avoid my post count to stay at 666 which could spell disaster...

 

Tormod

 

Are you kidding? If I could have mine permentantly set at 666!

 

I'm sure many of our Christian vistors would agree? lol

[Freethinker]

First I can not imagine a discussion of any value that did not involve providing proof for claims made. To write a lot of random stories and assertions and not have any desire to check the potential reality behind it already has a home, it's called Christianity.And to title the subject "Life vs. Science " would REQUIRE reason, logic and proof or the "Science" part would have to be dropped.

 

Now as to an after life and souls.

 

This idea is based on the concept that there is some "extra-natural" world/ existence. Something that is OUTSIDE of the physical world our physical bodies exist in. As such it requires "us" to share this duality. It requires "us" to have an "extra-natural" entity which outlasts the physical body and goes on to occupy this extra-natural existence. This requires a number of elements in order for this to function.

 

Existence, whether this world physical or extra-natural, requires energy. What source of energy exists that would allow for this extra-natural world? How would we interconnect to it? If there is no interaction between the energy of this world and the extra-natural, then the extra-natural world would be totally irrelevant to our existence. That would make the discussion useless. No interaction, nothing to discuss. As the claim is that there is interaction between these existences/ worlds, then there would have to be componenets in each existence that would function as the conduit between them. Each would HAVE to have a detectable existence in the other. What in this existence is there that would function as this conduit? Where is the identifiable conduit between our physical existence and this extra-natural world?

 

In the same vein, but more specific to the individual, if there is some existence of the individual in this extra-natural world, if at death, some entity exists in this extra-natural world that becomes our representitive from this physical existence, is this representitive some "other" entity, or a part/ continuation of our physical existence? In what way does this representitive "represent" us? Does it have some relative set of "physical" attributes? Is there a differentiation between my representitive and your representitive? If I was taller, had different color eyes, lived to be older, ... do these attributes carry over? What about education? Philosophy? personal relationships? Memories of events? ...? Or is it a simple "head count"? Is there one new entity in this extra-natural existence for every human that dies in this existence?

 

The 2nd one does not fit the typical assertion. The concept is typcally that this representitive is a continuation of the physical existence from our physical world. That there is an entity that has our complete memory set. That has a culmination of our entire life experience.

 

Which brings up the next issue. Is this a one time/ end time data dump? Does the memory of our individual life get dumped into the representitive entity after death? Or is it a continual update process? Is the extra-natural entity in continual contact with our physical entity, always updating both memory storage entity at the same time?

 

Regardless of timing issues, there is the process issue. HOW does the data exchange take place? Again, a data exchange requires energy. It also requires a conduit. What physical organ in our physical body has that function? Where does it draw it's energy from? Where is the physical element in this organ that does the communicating. It obviously can't be a part that has a PHYSICAL job to perform. While it could SHARE it's cross communcations task in an organ, there would ahve to be a physical component which does not have any other physical function. It could be easily identified as it would provide a function which consumes energy (in order to perform the task) and "do work". But the output of the work would not have a resultant PHYSICAL component.

 

So it would be easy to confirm the existence of an extra-natural world that is based on a representitive entity continuation of

[Freethinker]

Do threads have an after life?

[Freethinker]

Obviously not

[Tim_Lou]

we know that humans are made of matters, actually chemicals.

 

chemicals react with each other so we can move, eat...and do whatever...

chemical reactions are naturally occuring, just like 1 mol H2 reacts 1 mol O2 will always produce H2O in cretain condidtions.

 

and our body, tempature, pH are remain constant because they need to be constant in order to function.

 

my personality and everything depend on DNA

DNA for humans are almost 99% the same since we are same species.

 

but not 1 person in the world are exactlly the same, even twins.

 

when DNA is the same, and conditions are nearly the same, what make the reactions different?

 

when the first min theyr born, do you think the 2 babies are gonna have the same movement?

do you think that they will have the same observations of the world?

 

yeah, QM, some particles in the body react different.

but what make this huge differences?

twins have different personality, different opinions, and different styles....

 

its just like taking same H2 and O2, but they form H2O and H2O2 differently...

so, everything depends on the differences of energy. and this energy might be the energy of soul.

 

maybe when some parts in your brains decompose (or break apart or reactions.....), the energy is released. it may escape to other dimensions. (like graviton?)

 

many NDEs experiencers feel that they are moving toward a tunnel... maybe they are moving nearly at light speed or at light speed. so, there is a tunnel affect.

 

(well...i dont really know what im posting....seems off topic.. :-/ )

[Tormod]

I think that people's movements are not because of DNA. You can build a robot to do a certain job but the software will be separate from the robot. However, when the robot goes into disrepair the software has no meaning.

 

With people it's slightly different. Our bodys are dependent on DNA, yes. But like all animals (and plants) we are children of our environment. We react to our surroundings. All of us react differently because we have something called free will.

 

Our will is a product of our bodies. When we die, our consciousness goes away, because there is no way it can be separated from the body.

 

As for Tim's tunnel effect I still don't think it proves that there is an afterlife. I can believe that people have had weird out of body experiences, however that doesn't mean there is a beyond. If you stare at a picture for a long time and then shift your focus, an inverted image remains in your mind for a while. This is a natural process. Yet the inverted image does not exist.

 

Tormod

[Tim_Lou]

ok, people react to environment.

 

is the reaction a "soul" reaction?

or a chemical reaction?

 

when i touch fire for the first time, i feel hot, and im aware of it after this.

how can a memory of "touch of fire" be restored by chemicals?

whats the energy that involves in this "reaction"?

 

and how come im not gonna touch fire for the next time? because of reaction?

and the energy store in our brain?

but this energy is not used up,

after thousands of times, i still wont touch the fire again.

 

so, what energy is it?

chemical energy?

or "soul" energy?

 

simply energy from our food?

or energy from soul?

or both?

[Uncle Martin]

Tim,

 

The energy you ask about is chemically created. Muscle and nerve cells are capable of producing electrical impulses through chemical(ionic) processes. A neuron (brain cell) can produce 500-1000 impulses of 50-70 millivolts per second. There is alot of info available on the web.

 

There exists no evidence that I'm aware of regarding a soul actually existing or producing electrical or any other type of energy. When the physical body dies there is no longer a source of energy, therefore no "soul". Can anyone tell me what this mysterious "afterlife energy" is and where and how it is produced?

[geko]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

Can anyone tell me what this mysterious "afterlife energy" is and where and how it is produced?

 

It surrounds us, and is part of the filaments of consciousness that stretch through the entire universe.

[Tim_Lou]

no, what i mean is what energy causes these nerves cells to create these impulses...

 

and what cause thsese reactions to occur...?

is it just message from organs like eyes, skins....??

 

like if im afraid of a bug, when i see it, feel it, or just think about it, i'll be scared.

so, what energy is driving these reaction under different conditions?

 

how about this, what energy causes a person to think?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: geko

part of the filaments of consciousness that stretch through the entire universe.

 

I am dying to see pictures of these "filaments". There obviously must be photo's, electron microscope scans, hubble telescopic images of, ... not to mention tha mathematics behind it.

 

What ever level they exist at, if they EXIST they CAN be measured, calculated, accounted for in some manner.

 

Show us all what that is.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

how about this, what energy causes a person to think?

Now there is a good direct, well constructed question. Very good Tim!

 

Human thought is acheived by an electrochemical process.

 

Batteries are electrochemical devices. They take a chemical reaction between elements and use it to generate "free electrons" to produce current flow.

 

The same type of electrochemical process producces electron flow in fibers in the brain. Various fibers connect to and pass electrons to other fibers. Different connections produce different thoughts.

 

The connecting point between these fibers is called "Synapse".

 

You will find a very nice site with good graphics at:

 

http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n12/fundamentos/neurotransmissores/neurotransmitters2.html

 

But bottom line. It is a purely physical, natural process. There is nothing supernature about it. There is absolutely nothing in the makeup of our physical brain that would allow for communications with some metaphysical existence.

[Tim_Lou]

thx for the site.

 

 

are those reactions spontaneous?

is it like that when i touch something, this presure provides some activiation energy and causes the reaction to occur?

[Tim_Lou]

well, we are getting off topic..

 

so...

 

limbic system is believed to be gist of NDEs

since it controls religions, imaginary, sexuality....

 

here is a website about some NDEs:

http://www.brain-mind.com/BrainReligion.html

 

its very huge!

dont recommand to read the whole thing

start with "Out-of-Body and Near Death Experience" would be great.

 

it provides some nice examples of NDEs and are pretty imformation wise.