Solar energy

[Turtle]

Check this out:

Orbiting Solar Panels

 

I don't quite understand how they plan on beaming the power down though.

 

Rats! They want me to register beore reading! :) No matter. They plan to use microwaves to beam the juice to Earth. >> Microwave electric power transmission. A bibliography with abstracts

 

I have added two smaller panels (5 watts each) to my existing 15 watt panel. In spite of many promises over the past few years, the cost of panels is not going down. :( The suckers were $40 apiece. :hihi:

I store my juice in a 100 amp/hr deep-cycle 12 volt battery for use camping and during power outages. I have it outside and did toy with the idea of bringing it all into my room and going off-grid in there. I need a good container/carrier for the battery as I have had acid leak from it & corrode some metal parts. :hihi: :hihi:

[freeztar]

Rats! They want me to register beore reading! :) No matter. They plan to use microwaves to beam the juice to Earth. >> Microwave electric power transmission. A bibliography with abstracts

 

I think you (or someone else) has posted that article before as it looks familiar. I was under the impression that it was just theoretical at this point. It's hard to imagine they can get that kind of accuracy from so far away. Unless of course they just used a MASSIVE swimming pool and nuked it on HIGH to create steam. :hihi:

I have added two smaller panels (5 watts each) to my existing 15 watt panel. In spite of many promises over the past few years, the cost of panels is not going down. :( The suckers were $40 apiece. :doh:

 

So you have a 25W panel now? What does that mean in real-world terms? Could you run an appliance of that?

I need a good container/carrier for the battery as I have had acid leak from it & corrode some metal parts. :( :hihi:

 

A plastic bin perhaps? :hihi:

[Turtle]

I think you (or someone else) has posted that article before as it looks familiar. I was under the impression that it was just theoretical at this point. It's hard to imagine they can get that kind of accuracy from so far away. Unless of course they just used a MASSIVE swimming pool and nuked it on HIGH to create steam. :(

 

The signal is collected by a few acres of antennae as I recall. Restricted area of course. :)

 

 

So you have a 25W panel now? What does that mean in real-world terms? Could you run an appliance of that?

 

A plastic bin perhaps? :hihi:

 

Oooooo! Great idea! :( One of those plastic coolers with a handle! That would contain any spills and insulate the battery as well. Thanks!

 

So, 25 watts of panel means that for every hour of Sunlight that falls on the panel I can push 1 2/3 amp hours of juice into my 100 amp hour battery. When the battery is full up a voltage regulator switches off the circuit.

 

From the battery I can use either 12 volts directly, or power an inverter which gives me standard house current, 110 volt AC @ 60 Hz. (inverters come in different capacity ratings from 150 watts to 1200 watts or more. I have an 800 watt inverter) This is where the balancing act comes in. :hihi: I have to know the power rating of whatever I am using; this is either expressed in watts or amps. From the formula Watts = Amps * Voltage I then calculate the amp/hr rating and this tells me the drain on the battery.

 

Example: I have a 12 volt fan that is rated at .5 amps. Theoretically I can run this for 200 hours off the battery without recharge. But of every 24 hours I get added back to the battery 8 hours light * 1 2/3 amps = 13.3 amp/hours of juice.

 

Well, YKYAAGW this is all fun for you. :doh: :hihi:

[freeztar]

The signal is collected by a few acres of antennae as I recall. Restricted area of course.

 

So what happens when a stray meteor bumps into the transmitter. :eek:

Oooooo! Great idea! One of those plastic coolers with a handle! That would contain any spills and insulate the battery as well. Thanks! :)

 

Your welcome, but in honesty, I was envisioning something as lowly as a plastic shoebox type thing and you came up with the cooler with a handle which is a much...errr....cooler idea. :D

So, 25 watts of panel means that for every hour of Sunlight that falls on the panel I can push 1 2/3 amp hours of juice into my 100 amp hour battery. When the battery is full up a voltage regulator switches off the circuit.

 

Cool! [OT]What's even cooler is that you just gave me a great song name, "hours of juice". :cup: (yes, I'm actually serious) [/OT]

From the battery I can use either 12 volts directly, or power an inverter which gives me standard house current, 110 volt AC @ 60 Hz. (inverters come in different capacity ratings from 150 watts to 1200 watts or more. I have an 800 watt inverter) This is where the balancing act comes in. :camera: I have to know the power rating of whatever I am using; this is either expressed in watts or amps. From the formula Watts = Amps * Voltage I then calculate the amp/hr rating and this tells me the drain on the battery.

 

Example: I have a 12 volt fan that is rated at .5 amps. Theoretically I can run this for 200 hours off the battery without recharge. But of every 24 hours I get added back to the battery 8 hours light * 1 2/3 amps = 13.3 amp/hours of juice.

 

Thank you!

 

I've always wanted to expand my knowledge of electrical systems and how they interact. After your post I spent the next 2 hours researching batteries, voltage, amperes, watts, solar panels, and my own devices sitting around me. :)

 

One thing I still do not fully understand is how to match electrical components. For instance, you need the inverter to convert the 12V to 110V. What would happen if you connected your 12Vfan to your 110V inverter? Would it work? Would it fry?

What is meant by 800W capacity for the inverter? Does this mean that the voltage stays at 110 but the amperes increase (per the formula)?

 

The AC adaptor for my laptop is 19.5V. So is that the only voltage I can use? To what degree to amps matter?

 

How closely must volts and amps match? And where do hertz come into play?

Well, YKYAAGW this is all fun for you. :cup: :sun: :eek:

 

YKYAAGW you understand and empathize. :cup:

[Turtle]

So what happens when a stray meteor bumps into the transmitter. :D

It is undoubably covered somewhere in their risk analysis. Only a .0000000359% chance of frying everyone in a large metropolitan area due to meteor strike on the transmitter. :)

 

Your welcome, but in honesty, I was envisioning something as lowly as a plastic shoebox type thing and you came up with the cooler with a handle which is a much...errr....cooler idea. :D

 

I ran out to Joe's and traded 4 oz. of tobacco for a 16 qt. Coleman cooler with handle that perfectly fits the battery. smoke 'em if ya got 'em. :) :camera:

 

Cool! [OT]What's even cooler is that you just gave me a great song name, "hours of juice". :cup: (yes, I'm actually serious) [/OT]

 

Can't wait to hear it. :eek:

 

 

Thank you!

 

I've always wanted to expand my knowledge of electrical systems and how they interact. After your post I spent the next 2 hours researching batteries, voltage, amperes, watts, solar panels, and my own devices sitting around me. :)

Veerrry nice. It comes in very handy.

 

One thing I still do not fully understand is how to match electrical components. For instance, you need the inverter to convert the 12V to 110V. What would happen if you connected your 12Vfan to your 110V inverter? Would it work? Would it fry?

 

Yes, 12 V fan will fry. It is DC and the inverter provides AC. The fan, as well as an air compressor and other 12 Volt devices I have, works direct from the battery using the familiar cigarette socket type plugs and sockets. I made my own 3-socket pigtail that uses the wingnut connections on this type of battery. (battery detail image below.

 

What is meant by 800W capacity for the inverter? Does this mean that the voltage stays at 110 but the amperes increase (per the formula)?

Yes on the voltage staying the same. With an 800 watt inverter you theoretically could for example power 8, 100 watt standard house bulbs. Or maybe a 300 watt blender, a 75 watt TV and 4 100 watt bulbs with a little left.

 

The ideal I found is not what you get. My 800 watt inverter, even though it says it can provide a surge to 1200 watts, will not power my 750 watt 120 AC hotplate. :(

 

The AC adaptor for my laptop is 19.5V. So is that the only voltage I can use? To what degree to amps matter?

 

That 19.5 voltage is its output. The input voltage (120v) is usually written on the adaptor along with either the watts consumed or an amperage rating. Your laptop adaptor is likely less than 800 watts. :sun: So, you hook the inverter to the battery with clamps, turn it on, and then it has two regular outlets like your house. Plug in any stuff you do at home. If the inverter can't handle the load it sounds an audible alarm and simply shuts off. The inverter has a cooling fan and itself consumes 1/2 amp per hour.

 

How closely must volts and amps match? And where do hertz come into play?

 

 

YKYAAGW you understand and empathize. :cup:

 

Do I! :cup::hyper: Don't worry about the hertz; it's built in. If you can plug it in a standard outlet at home, you can plug it into an inverter. The voltage is built in also this way, always 110-120 AC coming out of the inverter. No single connected device, or number of devices, can have a wattage that exceeds the rated capacity of the inverter. As far as the 12 volt DC battery goes, it doesn't care about the inverter's rated capacity except a 1200 watt inverter running at full capacity will run the battery down faster than an 800 watt inverter running at full capacity.

 

I got my stuff inside, panels in the South facing window and battery in the cooler. Off to hook up some stuff. :eek:

[freeztar]

It is undoubably covered somewhere in their risk analysis. Only a .0000000359% chance of frying everyone in a large metropolitan area due to meteor strike on the transmitter. :lol:

 

Phew....so it's only a 35.9% chance on the nano-risk scale. :hihi:

 

I ran out to Joe's and traded 4 oz. of tobacco for a 16 qt. Coleman cooler with handle that perfectly fits the battery. smoke 'em if ya got 'em. ;)

 

I'll :esmoking: to that.

You can even toss a few beers in there and increase the battery longevity. ;)

Can't wait to hear it. :note: :note2:

Me neither. :hihi:

I'll have to let the words sink in for a while to solidify a song idea.

 

I made my own 3-socket pigtail that uses the wingnut connections on this type of battery. (battery detail image below.

 

What is a "3-socket pigtail"?

Yes on the voltage staying the same. With an 800 watt inverter you theoretically could for example power 8, 100 watt standard house bulbs. Or maybe a 300 watt blender, a 75 watt TV and 4 100 watt bulbs with a little left.

 

The ideal I found is not what you get. My 800 watt inverter, even though it says it can provide a surge to 1200 watts, will not power my 750 watt 120 AC hotplate. :(

 

I would assume an efficiency loss. I wonder what the average efficiency loss is?

 

That 19.5 voltage is its output. The input voltage (120v) is usually written on the adaptor along with either the watts consumed or an amperage rating. Your laptop adaptor is likely less than 800 watts. :hihi: So, you hook the inverter to the battery with clamps, turn it on, and then it has two regular outlets like your house. Plug in any stuff you do at home. If the inverter can't handle the load it sounds an audible alarm and simply shuts off. The inverter has a cooling fan and itself consumes 1/2 amp per hour.

 

I'm familiar with inverters for cars, I just never understood what exactly was happening, electrically. I'm still on shaky ground actually...

 

Do I! :hyper::hyper:

 

When I'm looking up solar panels and contemplating the buy (despite my numerous other expenses still untended), I know I've got the fever. I've always wanted to experiment with solar power (actually, in 4th grade I did a science fair project on solar power vs. batteries, but that's another story) but was put off by the high cost. Seeing your modular, made-at-home system is very inspiring. :hyper:

 

Don't worry about the hertz; it's built in.

 

I'd love to not worry about them, but since I don't understand their applicability to the electrical system, then I have no choice but to worry about hertz. I'm familiar with hertz in music (acoustical waves) as a measure of wave frequency. I'm unable to make the analogy with electricity. :shrug:

 

If you can plug it in a standard outlet at home, you can plug it into an inverter. The voltage is built in also this way, always 110-120 AC coming out of the inverter. No single connected device, or number of devices, can have a wattage that exceeds the rated capacity of the inverter. As far as the 12 volt DC battery goes, it doesn't care about the inverter's rated capacity except a 1200 watt inverter running at full capacity will run the battery down faster than an 800 watt inverter running at full capacity.

 

Gotcha, that helps tremendously. The wattage of the inverter is the limiting factor, assuming a steady, limitless source.

 

I got my stuff inside, panels in the South facing window and battery in the cooler. Off to hook up some stuff. :hihi:

 

Awesome! You lose the benefit of the cooling air outside (improving battery efficiency), but gain the benefit of a drier environment (especially where you are, at this time of year).

 

Are you still performing the solar "butterfly effect" experiments? ;) :)

[Turtle]

...What is a "3-socket pigtail"?

Electrical speak for wiring 3 sockets onto one pair of wires. The sockets look like what you plug a cigarette lighter into; the pigtail is next to the battery bottom-right in the photo. You then only have one pair of wires going to the battery & that helps simplify the wiring & cut down on possible arcing and corrosion while allowing you to plug in & use several devices.

 

I would assume an efficiency loss. I wonder what the average efficiency loss is?

Lots of variables including ambient temperature and battery condition.

 

I'm familiar with inverters for cars, I just never understood what exactly was happening, electrically. I'm still on shaky ground actually...

 

Are you confusing "inverter" with "alternator"? Inverters change DC to AC while alternators generate AC current & change it to DC. Steday there. :esmoking:

 

[

When I'm looking up solar panels and contemplating the buy (despite my numerous other expenses still untended), I know I've got the fever. I've always wanted to experiment with solar power (actually, in 4th grade I did a science fair project on solar power vs. batteries, but that's another story) but was put off by the high cost. Seeing your modular, made-at-home system is very inspiring.

 

I looked at the same 15 watt panel @ G.I. Joes today when I got the cooler and they are still $130 which is what I paid there for mine about 4 years ago. Just under $10 per watt. :hyper: I have used the system camping a couple times and once during a short power outage and I use it for power tools in the yard where I have no near outlets.

 

[

I'd love to not worry about them, but since I don't understand their applicability to the electrical system, then I have no choice but to worry about hertz. I'm familiar with hertz in music (acoustical waves) as a measure of wave frequency. I'm unable to make the analogy with electricity. ;)

 

OK In DC electric current the electron flow through the circuit is one direction, from the negative pole, through the load, to the positive pole. In AC electric current the direction of electron flow is reversed back & forth and the Hz is the frequency of the switching as you say. In the US, all generating plants switch at 60 Hz and the mechanism for that is built into the design of the generator by the number and position of coils and the operating rpm. The inverters accomplish the switching electronically. I do not know the particulars of how an electrical device accomodates AC frequency but they do. So the inverters for US are made to operate at 60 hz because all our electrical devices are too.

 

Gotcha, that helps tremendously. The wattage of the inverter is the limiting factor, assuming a steady, limitless source.

Yep. The systems installed in homes or business work the same way, they just use more panels, more batteries, and higher wattage inverters.

 

One note on the laptop in the car. I have heard that the 150 watt inverters that plug into a cigarette lighter socket in the car will not power a laptop adaptor. Higher watte inverters can't go into a standard cigarette lighter socket because they draw too much current & will either blow a fuse or start a fire. Larger capacity inverters have to connect to the battery with large gauge cables & over the shortest possible distance.

 

Are you still performing the solar "butterfly effect" experiments? :note: :note2:

 

No, but it's how I figured out my 5 year old battery was done for. :hyper::shrug: Well, that's a wrap. :hihi:

[freeztar]

Are you confusing "inverter" with "alternator"? Inverters change DC to AC while alternators generate AC current & change it to DC. Steday there. :hihi:

Nope, but I can see why you think that looking back on how I typed it out. I was referring to inverters that people plug into there cig outlet and power devices such as radios, cell phone chargers, dvd players, etc... (household style plugs)

I looked at the same 15 watt panel @ G.I. Joes today when I got the cooler and they are still $130 which is what I paid there for mine about 4 years ago. Just under $10 per watt. ;) I have used the system camping a couple times and once during a short power outage and I use it for power tools in the yard where I have no near outlets.

 

Ouch...$10 per watt...

I'm sure the price will come down once the new tech hits the market.

OK In DC electric current the electron flow through the circuit is one direction, from the negative pole, through the load, to the positive pole. In AC electric current the direction of electron flow is reversed back & forth and the Hz is the frequency of the switching as you say. In the US, all generating plants switch at 60 Hz and the mechanism for that is built into the design of the generator by the number and position of coils and the operating rpm. The inverters accomplish the switching electronically. I do not know the particulars of how an electrical device accomodates AC frequency but they do. So the inverters for US are made to operate at 60 hz because all our electrical devices are too.

 

So why does my ac converter say "50-60Hz"?

[Turtle]

Ouch...$10 per watt...

I'm sure the price will come down once the new tech hits the market.

That's what they said 4 years ago when I bought mine. Promises, promises.

 

So why does my ac converter say "50-60Hz"?

 

The frequency isn't constant so there is a built in range. To a light bulb it makes no difference, but to motors and electronics it does so much. :hihi:

[Turtle]

Ouch...$10 per watt...

I'm sure the price will come down once the new tech hits the market.

 

Have you done any looking to see if that's the going price?

 

I have a situation now that has me puzzled. I have lost faith in the charge controller I have. It is a little plastic box with wires for incoming panel leads up to a total of 7 amps, and outgoing leads to the battery. It has a light that glows when its charging, and a different light that comes on when the battery is full. My problem is that the fully charged light never comes on, even though I'm constantly charging & not using the battery. :eek_big:

 

I measured the voltage off the panels directly; the large one was putting out 16 volts and the smaller ones 20 volts. The battery read 12 volts. But when I measured the output leads from the charge controller I only read 6 volts. :naughty: The circuit board has no corrosion and I saw no burned out parts. I want to think the output ought to be 12 volts, but maybe without the battery connected and loading the circuit, the output isn't properly attenuated? :doh:

 

Any ideas out there? I don't want to spend $30 for a new one just to find out this is normal, and believe me that the chuckle-heads in the store don't have a clue. Turtle down!

[freeztar]

Have you done any looking to see if that's the going price?

 

It looks like it's around $6 per watt if you get a 50W panel.

SunWize Solar Panels (50 Watt)

 

I have a situation now that has me puzzled. I have lost faith in the charge controller I have. It is a little plastic box with wires for incoming panel leads up to a total of 7 amps, and outgoing leads to the battery. It has a light that glows when its charging, and a different light that comes on when the battery is full. My problem is that the fully charged light never comes on, even though I'm constantly charging & not using the battery. :Alien:

 

I measured the voltage off the panels directly; the large one was putting out 16 volts and the smaller ones 20 volts. The battery read 12 volts. But when I measured the output leads from the charge controller I only read 6 volts. :naughty: The circuit board has no corrosion and I saw no burned out parts. I want to think the output ought to be 12 volts, but maybe without the battery connected and loading the circuit, the output isn't properly attenuated? :doh:

 

Any ideas out there? I don't want to spend $30 for a new one just to find out this is normal, and believe me that the chuckle-heads in the store don't have a clue. Turtle down!

 

Can't you just measure the battery charge from the terminals? :eek_big:

I remember my parents owning a device that would tell you how charged a battery was (AA, C, D, etc.). I don't know if they make something similar for higher volts, but if so it would be a good tool to own. I know you wouldn't get regulation that way, but it might be useful for other purposes such as detecting when a battery is losing charge.

 

Anyhow, I found this good faq on charge controllers. Perhaps it can help solve your problem.

 

They recommend a 3-stage or MPPT charge controller?

Do you have a 1 or 2-stage? If so, it seems a good idea to upgrade anyways.

[Turtle]

It looks like it's around $6 per watt if you get a 50W panel.

SunWize Solar Panels (50 Watt)

 

That's better, but still not what they keep promising us. :doh: :naughty:

 

Can't you just measure the battery charge from the terminals?

I remember my parents owning a device that would tell you how charged a battery was (AA, C, D, etc.). I don't know if they make something similar for higher volts, but if so it would be a good tool to own. I know you wouldn't get regulation that way, but it might be useful for other purposes such as detecting when a battery is losing charge.

 

I thought I saw something like that too and whenever I ask at the stores I get a blank stare. Maybe at a RV supply outlet? Your link ends with what we want I think. >>

What is a "Battery System Monitor"?

Battery system monitors, such as the Heart Link-10 (same as the E-Meter), Trace TM500, and the TriMetric 2020 are not controllers. Instead, they monitor your battery system components and give you a pretty good idea of what you are using and generating. They generally keep track of the total amp-hours into and out of the batteries, and the battery state of charge, and other information. They can be very useful for medium to large systems for tracking exactly what your system is doing with various charging sources. They are somewhat overkill for small systems, but are kind of a fun toy if you want to see what every amp is doing as it goes in and out of your battery.

 

Anyhow, I found this good faq on charge controllers. Perhaps it can help solve your problem.

 

They recommend a 3-stage or MPPT charge controller?

Do you have a 1 or 2-stage? If so, it seems a good idea to upgrade anyways.

 

Thanks. My unit is an ICP and on the 'piece-o-crap' list. :eek_big: :Alien: >>

Simple 1 or 2 stage controls which rely on relays or shunt transistors to control the voltage in one or two steps. These essentially just short (the shunt types) or (series) disconnect the solar panel when a certain voltage is reached. Tests done by Sandia and NREL have shown that these types of controllers can reduce battery life significantly - by as much as 30%. We do not recommend them. Examples are:

*The charge controllers that are furnished with ICP kits for the same reason - they are the old on-off type.

 

I have disconnected the controller from the battery and charged the battery full with a plug-in-the-wall charger. I'll review that article to see what I need. :

[freeztar]

That's better, but still not what they keep promising us. :naughty: :hihi:

 

Remember when the same moan could be heard for PCs? And now almost every child in America has access to a computer. I believe that alternative energy sources will realize the same triumph. "I think I can, I think I can"

 

I thought I saw something like that too and whenever I ask at the stores I get a blank stare. Maybe at a RV supply outlet? Your link ends with what we want I think. >>

 

Apparently, a tester for a lead acid battery is quite expensive:

Battery-Web.com - Battery Tester FAQ

 

:(

Thanks. My unit is an ICP and on the 'piece-o-crap' list. :doh: :( >>

 

I have disconnected the controller from the battery and charged the battery full with a plug-in-the-wall charger. I'll review that article to see what I need. :lightning:

 

Well I'm glad the link was helpful. Let us (me at the moment) know what you decide to go with. :)

[freeztar]

Check out this article Turtle.

Solar power edges towards boom time | Environment | Reuters

 

They claim that the price of solar panels is going down about 5% per year and is on track to be as cheap as coal in about five years.

[Turtle]

Check out this article Turtle.

Solar power edges towards boom time | Environment | Reuters

 

They claim that the price of solar panels is going down about 5% per year and is on track to be as cheap as coal in about five years.

 

:( Not another carrot! :) :doh:

 

On a happier note, from your FAQ on charge controllers I see I can use just 1 of my 5 watt panels without a charge controller.

Generally, there is no need for a charge controller with the small trickle charge panels, such as the 1 to 5 watt panels. A rough rule is that if the panel puts out 1/60th or less per day of the rated battery capacity, you don't need one. For example, a 5-watt panel puts out around 3/10th's of an amp. If you get 5 hours full sun per day, that is about 1.5 amp-hours per day. If you have a pair of 220 amp-hour 6 volt golf car batteries, you could use up to a 10-watt panel with no regulator.

 

It looks like the recommended type is around $250! :shrug::cheer:

[freeztar]

:eek: Not another carrot! :) :doh:

 

:(

I guess I'm just optimistic. ;)

It looks like the recommended type is around $250! :shrug::cheer:

 

Well, this one is a little cheaper (PWM charging):

ProStar-30M MORNINGSTAR Solar CHARGE CONTROLLER w/METER - (eBay item 120171633283 end time Oct-19-07 20:29:34 PDT)

Or cheaper still (PWM charging):

ProStar-15M SOLAR CHARGE CONTROLLER with DIGITAL METER - (eBay item 120173094521 end time Oct-23-07 20:08:02 PDT)

Or a REALLY good deal [maybe](PWM charging):

Solar Charge Charger Controller 10 amp 12Volt - (eBay item 230182933976 end time Oct-25-07 11:13:43 PDT)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

And hey, do you think that modern power plants are'nt built more protected against problems like melt down, radiation leak, dirty floors? NO! Those problems are not going to be seen much any more.(I just hope a power plant does'nt blow up tommorow just to prove me wrong)

The thing to always remember is nuclear power plants are built to a budget by the lowest bidder! (generaly by underqualified "underpaid" semi-disgrunteled employees that could generaly give a $#!+ less about quality of workmanship!) I.e. I am a nuclear certified welder...how did I get certified?? A single X-ray quality weld test...In short I welded up a few test plates, they were X-rayed, and I passed...Could I repeat and pass? probably not, I haven't

done any welds of that nature since...could I get a job welding cooling and steam pipes for a nuke power plant...Yeah.:eek: