Solar energy

[Michaelangelica]

Water consumption in covered ponds is low enough that most deserts annual rainfall is enough. You don't want to waste your time with open ones because temperature fluctuations are going to kill your high yield algae or at least cut yields to 10%-30% what they could be. Oz has abundant water up north. Piping it to flat low lying desert area a little south would seem pretty simple.

O dear. . .,

American(?) geography is so poor

 

No way enough water in Oz deserts

It can go for decades without rain.

 

Would you suggest a pipeline from Moscow to England?

That's what you are suggesting

(Oz is bigger than continental USA)

 

Still, I have sent your idea to the new leader of the Oz political opposition to see if he can make anything of it.

He is having a globla-warming summit shortly

[silverslith]

O dear. . .,

American(?) geography is so poor

 

No way enough water in Oz deserts

It can go for decades without rain.

 

Would you suggest a pipeline from Moscow to England?

That's what you are suggesting

(Oz is bigger than continental USA)

 

Still, I have sent your idea to the new leader of the Oz political opposition to see if he can make anything of it.

He is having a globla-warming summit shortly

 

I'm a kiwi you insulting sod. And I've a fair idea of oz climate and altitude geography. I agree your deserts have no rain for years, but the rainfall in the northern territory gives oz more inches per sqkm overall than most countries. Also most of the interior desert is near sealevel. I've even heard of algaculture proposals for flooding this with sea water but thats a salt farm not algaculture.

Piping a little water 500km sth is not too hard when theres actually a fall involved.

You ockers should be looking at tidal turbines in Bass strait and the Arafura sea, not to mention that gorgeous and extensive geothermal great artesian basin.

But really Australia has all the gear to be a Saudi Arabia in the biofuels economy.:)

[Michaelangelica]

I'm a kiwi you insulting sod

.

Can I please start the sheep jokes now?

How do you say Fish and chips?

 

OK S. Hemisphere brother, my humble apologies. You get so used to geographically challenged Yanks.

 

But I still think you are drawing a long bow 500k is not going to do it- 2000K maybe. It might be easier and more economic to move everyone north 2,000K.

Piping a little water 500km sth is not too hard when theres actually a fall involved.

Well it might look like a fall on a globe but it ain't.

You ockers should be looking at tidal turbines in Bass strait

No, not bass straight but in north WA yes, but everyone has gone home and there is no-one left to use the electricity. Have you any spare sheep that need shearing?.

artesian basin

Not really geothermal resources in the same sense as smelly NZ. Some little potential yes, but not as much as you. The energy is also along way from population centers.

But really Australia has all the gear to be a Saudi Arabia in the biofuels economy.:)

Perhaps, if the water situation can be improved.

N Zealanders have real rivers we have dribblely creeks.

 

You guys learnt to play cricket yet?

[silverslith]

Perhaps, if the water situation can be improved.

N Zealanders have real rivers we have dribblely creeks.

 

You guys learnt to play cricket yet?

 

I've attached a contour map on which I've marked a couple of red squares of 100x100km close to decent looking year round rivers at higher altitude. Each of which could supply Oz's transport fuels.

You could use seawater in covered ponds near the coasts. Add the odd saltfarm/desalination plant to manage evaporation losses.

You need to mobilise 1 billion tons of water. Thats 30 ton per second for a year. And about 1/10000 that mass of nutrients-eg.sewage pond sludge. Once started a good design would be closed cycle on nutrients and near it on water.

 

You guys have more sheep than us.

I don't say feesh een cheeps. Unless I mimic a squeent eend a paerched greun. A sure way to blend in in Australia.

 

I'm guessing more water is mobile in Bass strait than the NW. The huge tides up there are due to the damming of the Indian oceans tidal surge by torres strait. too shallow to go with the flow.

[silverslith]

Respectable Kiwi rivers flow at over 1000 tons per second. Don't know about the muddie aussie dribbles.

[Michaelangelica]

I love you energy and enthusiasm let's see if I can prick it:)

 

Square 1 looks like the Back of Bourke. probably in the Channel country. That is under water at the moment . Altitude no, no altitude ,attitude maybe. It rains there once every ten years or so.

The 'respectable' river you mention (Murry Darling basin) is dry at the moment. Usually you can row a tinny down it; now you can't even do that.

Sewage.? There is not enough sewerage out there for a respectable long drop. We prefer to fertilise the sea with it anyhow, much better fishing that way.

97% of the state (NSW) was 'drought declared' until it rained in the Channel country a few weeks ago.

 

(There was an idea to divert coastal rivers around beautiful Byron Bay way -heaviest rainfall in the state God's Own Country- and send the water into the Murry Darling- don't know what happened to that idea. But with every international Oz actor living there it would probably never get up. Government here is tired and lacks vision for the future.(The only vision they have is a "Future Fund" for their pensions!) The great Snowy Mountains hydro/Water scheme would never get going today).

Square 2

Queensland's Flinders River?. Don't know, maybe, never been there. Too far to go. The river was investigated for irrigation and dismissed. I think it probably only runs in the Wet, like most rivers up there.

 

The Ord River is one area where a dam was built in the north (WA) and agriculture encouraged. It is closer to Singapore than me. I don't know how it is going. It is very remote from markets so transport costs must be a killer especially these days.

 

In the last six weeks the Dam levels around Sydney went UP by 0.5% per week! That was the first time that has happened since 1997. The drought may be breaking.

 

Still algaculture is an interesting idea. Why don't you Kiwi's come over and build a plant for us?

or

You make one first then we will copy it?:lol:

 

Sydney will build a de-sal plant "sometime soon" (politicians are organising it) at Botany Bay. There is a surprising amount of opposition to it.

 

I thought you were talking Tidal energy, that why I mentioned WA. Again no one lives there to use it.

 

Have you ever been in Bass Straight?

I wouldn't put my worst enemy out there! Head of the "Roaring Forties" ?

The winds weren't named that for fun! huge seas, dreadful currents, shipwrecks everywhere. We are always rescuing stupid "Round -The -World Solo-in-a-Bathtub" pommies from there. It does dump huge amounts of pure water on Tassies East coast but again no one there to drink it except 1,000 year old tress we are trying to weed out. (It will make a nice, if wet, park one day )

Bass Straight is also no where near anybody.

Adelaide, the only "big" town, closes at 10pm.

Even if there was someone there how do you get the electricity to them? What are we going to do with the electricity electrocute Orange Roughy?:lol:

[silverslith]

Bass Straight?

I wouldn't put my worst enemy out there! Head of the "Roaring Forties" ?

The winds weren't named that for fun! huge seas, dreadful currents

 

Dreadful currents you say! YUUUM!!! Huge Seas?: Wave energy.

 

Theres about 8 decent size tidal and wave projects underway here.

Wave ones are pretty conventional surfacesnake and seafloor pressure devices.

The Tidal thing is showing enormous potential with two projects:

-Cook strait: seafloor tethered twin turbine mid water column devices ~50m dia. Resource potential there to power the planet (if we could get it to them), with thosands of cubic kilometers of water sloshing back and forth at up to 20 kmph.

- Kaipara harbour mouth: 15 cubic kilometers passes at up to 25 kmph every six hours. Turbines planned are 20m dia shrouded venturi style, seafloor mounted 200Mw initial installation.

 

Bass Straight is also no where near anybody.

Adelaide, the only "big" town, closes at 10pm.

Even if there was someone there how do you get the electricity to them? What are we going to do with the electricity electrocute Orange Roughy?

 

Silly me, I thought Melbourne was on Bass Straight, a city of as much population as NZ. And I also assumed that you'd have some kind of national power grid.:lol: Guess I misunderestimated yous guys.

It'd be nice if you used it on your Bauxite rather that sending it to us. We've been burning fossils to electrolise it into Al for the past 40yrs- since our Hydro capacity was exceeded. We pay 30% higher electricity prices to subsidise Aluminium smelting for you and the US to use in planes and missiles. A Raw point.

 

Not much point us going full on Algaculture here in NZ. Too much water and not enough sun. We'd get set up and then australia would undercut us with only 20% of our costs. Local algae fuel installations are mainly geared to extract natural algae from sewage ponds.

You really want the dryest place possible. I dropped those squares on the map to show the area needed compared to Oz landmass and catchment area.

If you looked at 1000 promising areas for algaculture around australia then each would only need 30 litres of water a second for a year to fill them. Or take 5 years to wean off fossils and it becomes 6 litres a second. A bucket chain of true blue aussie cobbers could do it. Muddy dribble stuff. No reason they should all be in one place. Parched and squinty Aussie farmers should ditch their sheep(what noise does an Aussie sheep make? Beea!,Beea!) for the $100000 /ha yield potential of algae. Main cost is $1000- $2000 /ha of Polythene greenhouse film.

Water consumption far lower per hectare than sheep once you've filled your ponds.

Pretty reliable northern summer rainfall:

[Michaelangelica]

Dreadful currents you say! YUUUM!!! Huge Seas?: Wave energy.

 

Theres about 8 decent size tidal and wave projects underway here.

Wave ones are pretty conventional surfacesnake and seafloor pressure devices.

The Tidal thing is showing enormous potential with two projects:

-Cook strait: seafloor tethered twin turbine mid water column devices ~50m dia. Resource potential there to power the planet (if we could get it to them), with thosands of cubic kilometers of water sloshing back and forth at up to 20 kmph.

- Kaipara harbour mouth: 15 cubic kilometers passes at up to 25 kmph every six hours. Turbines planned are 20m dia shrouded venturi style, seafloor mounted 200Mw initial installation.

 

 

 

It'd be nice if you used it on your Bauxite rather that sending it to us. We've been burning fossils to electrolise it into Al for the past 40yrs- since our Hydro capacity was exceeded. We pay 30% higher electricity prices to subsidise Aluminium smelting for you and the US to use in planes and missiles. A Raw point.

Rubbish, we are all subsidizing China. (US, Oz, NZ)

but

it is about time we lobed a missile over the ditch. If we could find one.

I wonder if the French are still around?:lol:

 

Not much point us going full on Algaculture here in NZ. Too much water and not enough sun. We'd get set up and then australia would undercut us with only 20% of our costs.

More bleeding heart rubbish. We are both being undercut by subsidised agriculture in Europe and USA and of course low labour costs in Asia.

30 litres of water a second for a year to fill them.

Have you been to the Outback? The water is just not there!

We are the second driest continent on Earth after Antartica.

Aussie farmers should ditch their sheep

We agree there, Kangaroo and emu are delicious. We should also ditch rice and cotton. But then there is not much left after all manufacturing is going to Asia. Can we come over and go on the dole in NZ? ( or send the NZ population of Bondi back?)

[silverslith]

[

 

Rubbish, we are all subsidizing China. (US, Oz, NZ)

but

it is about time we lobed a missile over the ditch. If we could find one.

I wonder if the French are still around?:)

 

Oooh:eek2: Joking about clandistine state organised bombings of greenpeace vessels in our ports. You're lucky I'm so mild mannered.

Actually China is subsidising the US and Aussie govt's and economy via import tariffs. Not so here.

 

 

Not much point us going full on Algaculture here in NZ. Too much water and not enough sun. We'd get set up and then australia would undercut us with only 20% of our costs.

More bleeding heart rubbish. We are both being undercut by subsidised agriculture in Europe and USA and of course low labour costs in Asia.

 

If they want to subsidise algaculture they should go for it. Oz should too.

 

Have you been to the Outback? The water is just not there!

We are the second driest continent on Earth after Antartica.

And your largest individual sheep station is a lot larger than the area needed to produce your transport fuels.

Covered Algaculture is lower water consumtion per ha than any hort or pastoral farming. Maybe even Kangaroos and Emus. Algaculture would give over 100x the /ha economic returns of sheep, kangaroo, or emu. Start telling your farmers.

I mean really MA The whole thing including water supply would be a lot cheaper than one of the dozen nuclear reactors that Howard has just announced his plans are well advanced with. And Tidal in Bass strait would be massively cheaper than the basic cost of starting a reactor, even ignoring the unending waste management issue. We have much cause for concern in NZ as one breeder reactor or fuel processing accident would likely make our country uninhabitable too.

I know that your psyche is probably programmed from before birth to whinge about how impossible Aussies water situation is. I have no patience for it because I don't believe there isn't room in your huge sundrenched country for 1000 farms of 1000 hectares each near enough to fresh or saltwater sources to set them up. You may notice I've been talking about entirely replacing Oz fossil transport fuels in 1 yr or 5 yrs. Not difficult if the decision to do it was made. Even if you only targeted 20% replacement in the first 10 years you'd be on the right track: 0.6L per second for 10 years per 1000ha farm. Housetap flowrates.

 

Did you really expect me to believe you can't get electricity from melborne on bass strait to sydney etc. You mentioned adelade which is further away than sydney. How on earth is a few ferro concrete turbines and dynamos more intimidating a project than wholesale Nuclear energy? Probably 100x cheaper per Kwhr to set up- ignoring long term nuke costs too. Why did you forget Melbourne? I'm puzzled by this.

Kiwis in Bondi

We send our dumber individuals to Oz because in the words of an ex primeminister "It increases the IQ of both countries" A great thing about our country is that we have no Aussies living here. (though thousands of Americans have emigrated here recently to escape their fascist state (their words)).

Maybe the psyche of Aussies is too influenced by your 100million sheep. That could be why many of you are happy to stay with the flock and allow John his 30 uranium mines upwind of your cities. Since its so dusty in Oz some 10x as much radiation as in all the uranium mined from these will end up blowing across the landscape. All John wants is huge appreciation as personal power and wealth for the rest of his life from big energy as his 30 pieces of silver.

Stop moaning about "problems" they are opportunities for solutions. Algaculture is a solution to regional water issues because consumption rates are as low as you can get.

[Michaelangelica]

You're a persistent bugger, I'll give you that.

 

Don't get carried away with Howard's ("Bonsai's"= little Bush) rhetoric on nuclear power. It is mostly political posturing designed to drive a wedge though his opposition. There is a lot of opposition to nuclear here especially with the Democrats, Greens and Labor parties. Then, keeping China's 30 or so reactors going with our uranium (1/3 of the world's supply; thorium too) seems hypocritical.

The new pebble-bed system looks like being built soon in China which would at least remove the threat of a melt-down.

 

With the recent break-thoughs in solar panel technology; and the Labor party promising to subsidise Solar panels for houses if it wins next election (in 6 months time); nuclear is a long way off, if ever, in The Land of Oz.

 

However you may be interested in this:-(We also have a bloody lot of coal)

"Dr. Karl's" reaction to coal power stations

In his book "Sensational Moments in Science", ABC Press, 2001. His take on coal power:-:-

 

"In 1982, some 111 (US)nuclear-fired power plants consumed about 540 tonnes of nuclear fuel.

In the same year, coal-fired power plants released over 800 tonnes of uranium." into the atmosphere.

"If a single nuclear-fired plant released 8K of uranium into the bio-sphere. there would be . .an enormous outcry."

He says the nuclear content of coal has not yet reached general public awareness in the same way that the greenhouse effect AIDs, or the ozone hole have.

There are no nuclear regulations about the disposal of coal ash

 

Coal apparently contains a heap of uranium and thorium

He concludes that you will get three times more radiation from a coal fired power plant than a nuclear fueled power plant! That's if you include the complete nuclear fuel cycle mining, processing operating, disposal(!?)

If you don't include these your average coal-fired power plant puts out 100 times more radiation than a nuclear-fired plant.

p103-104

 

PS

For those who don't know or are confused by what is happening here; NZ and Oz baiting are National pastimes in both countries. (We still love each other, I think)

[silverslith]

You're a persistent bugger, I'll give you that.

 

Don't get carried away with Howard's ("Bonsai's"= little Bush) rhetoric on nuclear power. It is mostly political posturing designed to drive a wedge though his opposition. There is a lot of opposition to nuclear here especially with the Democrats, Greens and Labor parties. Then, keeping China's 30 or so reactors going with our uranium (1/3 of the world's supply; thorium too) seems hypocritical.

The new pebble-bed system looks like being built soon in China which would at least remove the threat of a melt-down.

 

With the recent break-thoughs in solar panel technology; and the Labor party promising to subsidise Solar panels for houses if it wins next election (in 6 months time); nuclear is a long way off, if ever, in The Land of Oz.

 

However you may be interested in this:-(We also have a bloody lot of coal)

"Dr. Karl's" reaction to coal power stations

In his book "Sensational Moments in Science", ABC Press, 2001. His take on coal power:-:-

 

"In 1982, some 111 (US)nuclear-fired power plants consumed about 540 tonnes of nuclear fuel.

In the same year, coal-fired power plants released over 800 tonnes of uranium." into the atmosphere.

"If a single nuclear-fired plant released 8K of uranium into the bio-sphere. there would be . .an enormous outcry."

He says the nuclear content of coal has not yet reached general public awareness in the same way that the greenhouse effect AIDs, or the ozone hole have.

There are no nuclear regulations about the disposal of coal ash

 

Coal apparently contains a heap of uranium and thorium

He concludes that you will get three times more radiation from a coal fired power plant than a nuclear fueled power plant! That's if you include the complete nuclear fuel cycle mining, processing operating, disposal(!?)

If you don't include these your average coal-fired power plant puts out 100 times more radiation than a nuclear-fired plant.

p103-104

 

PS

For those who don't know or are confused by what is happening here; NZ and Oz baiting are National pastimes in both countries. (We still love each other, I think)

 

Yeah I've come across that uranium from coal figure many times. Its not pretty I agree and a good reason not to burn coal but a bit of a red herring because: Uranium from coal is soluble and its natural occurance as soluble salts in our enviroment means that this form is excreted from our bodies in days. Uranium is most dangerous when burnt in quantities at high temperature. The fine ceramicised particles have Biological half lifes of years. Still there is all the decay chain of Uranium in that coal too each one responsible for as much activity as that 800 ton of Uranium. Some of those may actually be a greater health issue if they are accumulated in the body.

 

Pebble beds: fine as long as you bury your used pebbles deep in the basalt of a subduction zone. Start reprocessing as Nuclear must do to survive and the total risk is insignificantly better than any other breeding tech.

 

Not convinced by solar panel technology. The energy input to make them is too close or more than the total generated in their lifespans. A way of shipping electricity perhaps.

 

I hope you are right about the Oz-nuke thing. When I see Aussie surveys reported on our news as over 60% think Oz should go nuclear I worry.

 

I've struck the culture clash of Nthers not understanding our tendancy to goodnaturedly poke stick before. Good to enjoy a bit and Its a tradition I think some Uber polite Americans would benefit from. They seem to believe that protecting someone elses ego is more important than poking a stick at their chinks to help them to the truth and to not take themselves too seriously.

[silverslith]

Solar mirrors are great.

Id be building a 100sqm one in the backyard using a truck turbo on an alternator if it wasn't overcast or raining 3/4 of my daylight hours.

 

Nowhere else was the reflected light so bright it hurt, leaving the eyes with a permanent squint.

 

ITV - John Pilger - The swimmer's journey home

 

:shrug:

[Michaelangelica]

Solar mirrors

Linear Concentrator Research at the Australian National University

 

Catalyst: Solar Future - ABC TV Science

[Michaelangelica]

this is a good article on the new Australian technology "Sliver cells" (not a typo)

that I reported on before

Slicing the cost of solar power | COSMOS magazine

You can see from the photo that the panels are transparent!

 

Please support Cosmos it is the best science mag we have seen in Oz for a long time and they have a very small market here.

Perhaps your library could be encouraged to subscribe?

 

Online feature

Slicing the cost of solar power

18 April 2007

by David Kay

Cosmos Online

 

Blakers (left) and Weber (right) show off a solar panel made from solar slivers. Their process reduces by 90 per cent the amount of silicon used in a cell.

Image: ANU

Cosmos Bright Spark Awards 2007

 

 

Related articles

 

* World's biggest solar plant for Australia

* Eco-conscious Britons buying solar home kits

* Solar tile keeps out rain, creates electricity

* Green fallout from nuclear report

* Electrical tissue engineering delivers organs on spec

 

The expense of photovoltaic cells has prevented their widespread use, but a raft of new technologies is pushing their prices down. One of them is solar slivers.

[Michaelangelica]

Gamma Power Systems

Company Background

Gamma Power Systems Pty Limited is an Australian owned company, which was set up in March 2003 to investigate power production from different sources.

The company to date has been pure research and development and we have made advances in solar energy collection design, so that we can now bring a unique power generation design to the world as an alternative to existing thermal production techniques.

 

Existing Technology

Existing green energy systems are a good adjunct to conventional thermal power generation and a step in the right direction. Wind Power and Wave Power use the natural effects on the earth in an attempt to harness energy, however, these only produce power when the waves are running or the wind is blowing. Solar power using conventional Solar Power Panels is very restricted since it only allows power to be collected whilst the sun is shining. Hydroelectricity only works when excess water is available, in fact, most green energy systems apart from Hot Rock (Geothermal) technology are intermittent and therefore only marginally useful in today’s preplanned electricity distribution systems as they don’t provide consistent base load power. The cost to produce power using conventional green energy methodology is very expensive. This causes governments to have to subsidize the green component of power production to endeavor to cut our carbon emissions so that we may be good world citizens.

Some governments have been looking at nuclear power, but this is because they see no other viable solution, however nuclear is also expensive compared to coal powered generation and introduces waste disposal problems.

Scientists are currently trying to collect energy from zero point energy and cold fusion with billions of dollars being directed towards these endeavors. This energy is sub-atomic, difficult for most to understand, expensive and hard to get at, otherwise they would have already conquered this method of power production.

StatCounter - Free Web Tracker and Counter

 

New Technology

 

What is needed is a green alternative that operates twenty-four hours a day and is cost effective, so that it can compete on a level playing field with all existing polluting, thermal technologies. We have spent many thousands of hours in research, testing many different apparatus to endeavor to find a solution. The technology that we have been researching has been the collection of solar energy, not based on light emissions from the sun but based on the collection of electrical energy that is released when the solar wind interacts with the upper levels of the atmosphere. We have made a major breakthrough that has allowed us to design a method of utilizing power from the sun whether it is day or night at the location of the power collection device. The energy available is almost incalculable, as inexhaustible as the sun and readily convertible for conventional usage.

[Michaelangelica]

Top five advancements in solar technology

Jolly | 23 hr. ago

5) Nanotechnology powered DSSCs:

 

4) Solar concentrators – Heliotube:

 

3) Paint on Solar Cells:

 

2) Spherical Solar Cells:

 

1) Reflective dishes:

 

Top Five Advancements In Solar Technology - Ecofriend

[freeztar]

Check this out:

Orbiting Solar Panels

 

I don't quite understand how they plan on beaming the power down though.