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Creating a Religion

NoBigDeal

By NoBigDeal
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IrishEyes Newbie

IrishEyes

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quote: by nemo

I’m a Christian intentionally looking for alternatives to my beliefs in an attempt to be objective... My opinion of science – you’re right, I don’t like science.

 

quote: by FreeT

Says it all!

 

Did anyone else take nemo's comment to be sarcastic? I read the whole paragraph where he says "I don't like science", and it seemed very cheeky to me.

 

Man, FreeT, I really wish you posted on the weekends sometimes! Why on earth do you think it's ok to just disappear for a few days at a time? Don't you know the site stats struggle when you're not around causing a ruckus?

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wisdumn Newbie

wisdumn

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Originally posted by: IrishEyes

quote: by nemo I’m a Christian intentionally looking for alternatives to my beliefs in an attempt to be objective... My opinion of science – you’re right, I don’t like science. quote: by FreeT Says it all!

Did anyone else take nemo's comment to be sarcastic? I read the whole paragraph where he says "I don't like science", and it seemed very cheeky to me. Man, FreeT, I really wish you posted on the weekends sometimes! Why on earth do you think it's ok to just disappear for a few days at a time? Don't you know the site stats struggle when you're not around causing a ruckus?

 

HEY IRISH, leave FT alone, don't you know he is busy gathering evidence to kill God and His stupid followers.

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IrishEyes Newbie

IrishEyes

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08/23/2004 10:34 AM - wisdumn

HEY IRISH, leave FT alone, don't you know he is busy gathering evidence to kill God and His stupid followers.

 

Ok, wisdumn, let me channel FreeT for just a sec, ok?

 

/Irish speaking as FreeT/: Thou canst not KILL what does not exist, so sayeth the stain in my underwear!

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wisdumn Newbie

wisdumn

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Originally posted by: IrishEyes

08/23/2004 10:34 AM - wisdumn HEY IRISH, leave FT alone, don't you know he is busy gathering evidence to kill God and His stupid followers.

Ok, wisdumn, let me channel FreeT for just a sec,

 

originally posted by:irish eyes:

ok? /Irish speaking as FreeT/: Thou canst not KILL what does not exist, so sayeth the stain in my underwear!

 

duelly noted irish, i concede

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Freethinker Newbie

Freethinker

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Originally posted by: wisdumn

i do not believe that everyone who is a member of an organized religion follows it exactly the same.

Of course not. When it is all made up, you have to expect a wide variation.

 

While when facts are involved, you get consistancy, like Science. Some variation yes, but a strong and absolute layer of things that do not vary. E=MC^2 regardless.

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Freethinker Newbie

Freethinker

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Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Man, FreeT, I really wish you posted on the weekends sometimes!

I do on alternate weekends.

Don't you know the site stats struggle when you're not around causing a ruckus?

While on another thread you said you were worried/ Scared? I forget the term, because Tormod said I was just what he needed here! :-)

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Freethinker Newbie

Freethinker

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Originally posted by: IrishEyes

stain in my underwear!

refers to my favorite description you've given of God on this site. I still chuckle when I think of that one...

WOW, what a memory! I had forgotten about that line. It was good wasn't it! :-)

As for what you wear under your kilt...I'd prefer that you keep that info between yourself and your SO...

The caber is hard to hide under a glen plaid mini-skirt.

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wisdumn Newbie

wisdumn

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Originally posted by: Freethinker

Originally posted by: wisdumn i do not believe that everyone who is a member of an organized religion follows it exactly the same.

Of course not. When it is all made up, you have to expect a wide variation. While when facts are involved, you get consistancy, like Science. Some variation yes, but a strong and absolute layer of things that do not vary. E=MC^2 regardless.

 

you talk about when it is all made up, you have to expect a wide variation. yet in the same breath you say science is consistent (with some variation) but a strong and absolute layer of things that do not vary.---------------------------- well uh, organized religion also has strong and absolute layers that do not vary(mass,communion,bingo on wednesday nights)-------------------- and science, (the facts religion) per say, yet many scientists(even ones on this site) still cannot agree on all of their THEORIES

which i've noticed leaves room for not just (some variation) but " wide variation "

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Freethinker Newbie

Freethinker

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Originally posted by: wisdumn

you talk about when it is all made up, you have to expect a wide variation. yet in the same breath you say science is consistent (with some variation) but a strong and absolute layer of things that do not vary.---------------------------- well uh, organized religion also has strong and absolute layers that do not vary -------------------- and science, (the facts religion) per say,

 

Let's take a look at the two diametrically opposed methods of gaining knowledge. Let's look at how "consistent (with some variation) but a strong and absolute layer of things that do not vary" there might be based on each's knowledge base. Let's see which gives consistantly the same results over what period of time.

 

Science - using scientific observation method, we can measure the diameter of the earth.We could measure a shadow of a stick of a known height at one latitude and measure the same stick at given distance directly north or south at the same time of day, same day and by simple calculation come up with a number.

 

Religion, we can read a book which gives specific details on how and when a god/ man was born,

 

Science - over 2200 years ago Eratosthenes did this experiement for the 1st time in recorded history. His measurement was aprox 7,850 miles (consistent). He was off by less than 0.5%!(with some variation)

 

Religion, OPS, the book did not even exist for another 400-600 years! And even now the different gospels have conflicting details. Various Christian groups celebrate his birthday on different days! By SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN 0.5%! Ya can't even agree on when your superhero was born! And just how did three wisemen that were FROM the EAST, follow a star EAST of them and wind up going WEST?

 

We can do this with any number of bits of data from each side.

 

Yes with Science we will find that some data is later rejected. But what we find is the wrong data was not derived from valid science, but prior errors. And when it IS found to be wrong, we can just toss it. We are not stuck with it written into a supposedly perfect, never changing text. But with Science we can PREDICT with incredible accuracy, what will happen when we do certain things. With Science we can throw a couple of hunks of metal billions of miles and have them land safely within miles of where we wanted them.

 

Show us ANYTHING in Christianity that has been PROVEN to have that predictablity. And if you think you can start with predictions claimed for it's Jesus, we'll see if they are really predictions.

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wisdumn Newbie

wisdumn

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as far as Jesus's birthday goes, history cannot even identify billy the kid's birthday accurately and that was way-------------after the time of Jesus. for anyone that sits around and argues about when His birthday is or isn't is just ridiculous, that's such a small factoid that it doesn't matter. i mean kahlil gibran in the book "Jesus, son of man" quotes Jesus's grandmother as saying he was born sometime in January. the funniest thing about religion or science is that whichever one you follow, both paths will lead you to the ultimate question, " what was before this universe and us? "religion may lead you to God but science does italso because God already knew people would come questioning with their intelligence so He dead ended the road to see ifthat when the intelligent person gotthere and realized there must be something beyond themselves, if they would ask in their heartswhat God wants with their lives, He left just enough scientific cookie crumbs for the intelligentscientist to find Him, that waythe choice is left up to the person to abide and learn from God through faith and patient listening, or to turntheir back and say to themselves "Nah- couldn't be?" the people who do not want to believe in God are people that havefelt negative influence from people that claim to follow God. all that stays in their heads are the people that claimed to follow God but treated others wrong. not every person that claims to follow something necessarily does, but most non-believers in God only concern themselves with dogma, and wrath, hell,and that handfull of supposed God followers that do not live like they're supposed to( i.e. loving your neighbor, being charitable,not judging others, etc.) as well read as you are in the Bible(i'm supposing) then it's very interesting to me that when you post things from it that you never quote the good and right teachings that are in there. the only thing you seem to focus on is holy wars that are discussed MAINLY in the old testament(key word mainly) but when people like king nero kill people for their religious beliefs- well, that just never seems to make it in your thread. i believe you FT have stood before God in your heart and knew it! make all the stain in underwear jokes you want but you have been in God's presence before but chose to stay away because you thought following God meant being pious, hypocritical, boring, and judgmental and hey, i've met those same types of people, just read one of my last post in the "what molded your beliefs thread" but thank God that is not what it is like to follow God. i don't worry about things like heaven or hell, i'm not concerned with what they are exactly like, and i certainly didn't start following God out of fear of my own *** and damnation for eternity, i follow God because i've experienced His love, and if God can love the person that i used to be then i can love Him. i might be a little off topic but i just wanted to share that with you. thanks - wisdumn

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Freethinker Newbie

Freethinker

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Originally posted by: wisdumn

as far as Jesus's birthday goes, history cannot even identify billy the kid's birthday accurately and that was way-------------after the time of Jesus.

Incredible. Suddenly Jesus and Billy the Kid are put on the same level. Glad to hear you think either so little of your man/god or so much of an Old West culture icon.

 

But the comparison just show how far a beleiver will go to hide the utter fallacy of their beliefs. Let's look at the comparison being made. (The Jesus stuff is based on published Christian theology, not reality)

 

Jesus- god made man here on earth. The ONLY such ever in history. Documented seperately by numerous authors in the bible. Exact details given to establish specific timing and locational details. Information provided by the perfect inspiration of the supreme completely inerrant being. Variation in specifically indicated year of birth based on contradictory information from the perfect inspiration of the supreme completely inerrant being 5 years. Details specified require that only one set of details of the various claims can be correct.

 

Mr Kid- documents written detailing his birth by contemporary and divine sources - ZERO! Variation in suggested birth year ONE YEAR.

 

Yep now there is a balanced comparison!

 

But remember what this discussion is about. Not what you want to change it to be about. (Yes RED HERRING ALERT) It is about a comparison of the accuracy and consistancy achieved in a knowledge base derived by two competeing processes. It was to compare specific data promoted by each.

Originally posted by: wisdumn

organized religion also has strong and absolute layers that do not vary ... and science, (the facts religion)

The first "strong and absolute layers that do not vary ... and science, (the facts religion)" found in it's published record is Jesus' birth. That was the reason for selecting it for the comparison.

 

IT FAILS COMPLETELY.

 

I can see why you would be desperate to find a way to cover this FACT up!

for anyone that sits around and argues about when His birthday is or isn't is just ridiculous, that's such a small factoid that it doesn't matter.

I see, the claimed birth of the most important being ever to take human form which is covered in DETAIL in the perfect inerrant word of the most powerful being ever is "such a small factoid that it doesn't matter". No need for accuracy for something so minor from a source so weakly sourced (GOD!).

 

What other PERFECT INSPIRED factoids should we check? His lineage? OK, two DIFFERENT ONES are provided. The reason for his "parents" journey, the Census, lacks ANY validation by recorded history. Specific details of other actors in the play are WRONG. (claimed to happen during rule of Quirinius under Herod. In reality, this has to be a fabrication because Quirinius was not governor of Syria and Judea during Herod's kingship. Direct Roman rule over the province of Judea, where Bethlehem was located, was not established until 6 A.D. In other words, ten years separated the rule of Quirinius from Herod.) Oh and RE Jesus of Nazareth. There was no such city at the time. And another minor factoid, one that surely is so significant it would be easy to validate. I mean how often does a ruler slaughter all 2yr old males? NEVER HAPPENED! But I can see how something as "small (of a) factoid that it doesn't matter" as SLAUGHTERING CHILDREN EN MASS should be ignored!

 

So just which of the numerous "strong and absolute layers that do not vary ... and science, (the facts religion)" regarding the birth of this most important being ever born has ANY validity behind it?

He left just enough scientific cookie crumbs for the intelligent scientist to find Him,

Give us ONE from the myt

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