The Evolution of Education

[IrishEyes]

 

Ya, but I like the way I say it better.... :-)

 

I think it is that sense that you are less convinced that it is possible than I. I get the feeling you are saying it CAN'T be done, while I am saying it would have built in difficulties, yes, but can and should be done.

 

I stand by my earlier statement - you are a goof!!

 

I am saying that, knowing the obvious difficulties, it would be NEARLY impossible. And if it can't be done correctly (in a way that is beneficial, not just for the sake of doing it), then it SHOULDN"T be done. If you honestly think that there is a chance for all of the religions and non-religious groups in this country to come to an agreement as to how their particular group will be represented, you are MUCH more optimistic than I am. That is why my attitude seems to be "It can't be done". It's much more realistic than your Pollyanna "would have built in difficulties, yes, but can and should be done" attitude, in my opinion.

[IrishEyes]

The examples that are provided always turn out to be trouble makers. Kids that repeatedly perform actions that they have been warned about that disrupt normal school activities. Such as a little girl that continually brought prayer cards to school and kept pestering her classmates to take them. The kids complained to authorities because they were tired of her constant evangelism. Warning after warning was ignored. The parents were using this kid as a decoy to force a confrontation.

 

This is totally off-topic, and I apologize, but I have to ask... Isn't this basically what you did with your child when you allowed them to go to school wearing '666' on their t-shirts? " The parents were using this kid as a decoy to force a confrontation." I mean, maybe that is simplifying what you did, but it just struck me that I'd read something very close to your 'young Christian girl evangelizing' scenario, but couldn't remember where. Then it hit me...HERE, by YOU. I'm in no way saying that what this Christian family did was right, I don't feel it was. But how is that different from what you did?

 

Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it does concern me. That's exactly the reason that i dont think religion should be a part of any public school.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes... Isn't this basically what you did with your child when you allowed them to go to school wearing '666' on their t-shirts? " <i>The parents were using this kid as a decoy to force a confrontation.</i>" I mean, maybe that is simplifying what you did, but it just struck me that I'd read something very close to your 'young Christian girl evangelizing' scenario, but couldn't remember where. Then it hit me...HERE, by YOU. I'm in no way saying that what this Christian family did was right, I don't feel it was. But how is that different from what you did?

 

Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic,

 

Yes you are! :-)

 

No I don;t see any specific similarity between the two examples. The shirt my son wore is worn by a number of students. Is one of many "Rock Group" t shirts that he owns. He did not wear it to make a statement. He worn it because he liked the group and the shirt. There had been no earlier warning. Even though he has worn the shirt numerous times. And my son is known for being a quiet unassuming kid. They were shocked when he stood up for his rights.

 

While the little girl had been a continual problem for the school. Continually pushing and rejecting authority. Had received numerous warnings and in fact the parents had been told specific regarding that incident to NOT do it BEFORE they did it.

 

Now if I had made my "Dead man on a stick club" shirt and made him wear it over and over after being told by school not to...

[IrishEyes]

Now if I had made my "Dead man on a stick club" shirt and made him wear it over and over after being told by school not to...

 

STOP!! You're KILLING me!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!! I would LOVE to have one of those!!!

 

I do see the difference, and I wasn't trying to be antagonistic. Thanks for clarifying the situation with your child, it removes the last vestiges of that ugly dark cloud that was hanging over your head in my mind. Seriously, you seem just like one of my very best friends. She and i agree on almost every single topic, except religion. Our similarities are most obvious in the fields of education and medicine. But I have to admit that she thinks I'm way too much of a hippie in certain areas, and I think she's way too conventional. Our husbands constantly laugh, as the Christian is the more free-thinking and the agnostic is the more conventional, but it's a very good friendship!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

<blockquote>Quote

<hr>Now if I had made my "Dead man on a stick club" shirt and made him wear it over and over after being told by school not to... <hr></blockquote>

 

STOP!! You're KILLING me!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!! I would LOVE to have one of those!!!

 

When I am done designing it, I will post the cafepress URL for you.

 

<center>DEAMONS

DEAd Man ON a Stick

Celebrating Torture and ritualistic Cannablism! </center>

Our husbands constantly laugh, as the Christian is the more free-thinking and the agnostic is the more conventional, but it's a very good friendship!

 

I have a friend (yes I actually do!) that is a recent deconvert. He was a Luthern Minister for decades and finally did enough open minded reasoning to reject the whole Christian myth. However he still holds all of his very socio/economic/political conservative views. He comes to our FreeThought Society meetings to discuss rational belief structure, but always gets upset by the vast majority being very liberal in everything.

[IrishEyes]

He comes to our FreeThought Society meetings to discuss rational belief structure, but always gets upset by the vast majority being very liberal in everything.

 

He should try MENSA then. Most of the people I have encountered at those things are very intelligent, but are sooooo traditional in their thinking. I actually went to my third (and final)) meeting with a bag full of BOXCUTTERS, and passed them out, but didn't explain why. And you know...NOBODY got the joke, so i decided I was not in the right place.

[Freethinker]

I would guess that people at MENSA are intellegent. It requires a very high IQ for being a member. I have known some people that belong, but did not join myself (yes I qualify). I had heard it is kinda a stick in the mud group. They were. I'm a partier.

 

Interestingly, i once heard it has a high percent of black males. Don't know it for a fact.

 

Last I checked, it also had a signficantly higher percent of non-believers than national averages. Not as high as Top Scientists though.

[GAHD]

"...a bag full of BOXCUTTERS, and passed them out..."

 

 

LMAO! Ooh that's clever.

[IrishEyes]

I would guess that people at MENSA are intellegent. It requires a very high IQ for being a member. I have known some people that belong, but did not join myself (yes I qualify). I had heard it is kinda a stick in the mud group. They were. I'm a partier.

 

This has gotten REALLY off-topic, but you're right. The ones I met were sticks-in the mud. However, I still argue that IQ is really not a good indicator of *smart*. I think MENSA is still at 135-140 IQ for membership, depending on which test is taken. But the people I met were some of the dullest people I have ever known, and that, to me, is not always an indication of true intelligence, but of good test-taking abilities.

 

Back to *this* topic, most of those Mensa-nites were missing CRITICAL THINKING skills. That's why the BOXCUTTER joke went right over their heads!

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Lovely topic.

 

About 17 years ago I pulled my 3rd grader and 1st grader out of public school and we taught them at home. "Taught" is not the correct term, I suppose. I told them that all they had to do was read. "Read whatever you want, comic books, video game books, I don't care. Just read".

 

All 5 of my children read before the age of 5. I taught them. It took about two weeks each and about 15 minutes a day. The technique was so easy: at bedtime, being normal, they always wanted to stay up. So I sat next to their beds with a small pad of paper and a felt tip pen and started writing simple words that were phonetically easy. "Cat", "Bat", etc.

I also threw in silly words like, "snat", just to get them to giggle.

 

I stayed at it until they showed signs of being sleepy or bored and then I stopped.

 

I don't believe in public education, at least, not in mandatory public education. My reasons are very simple and are as follows:

 

1. The responsibility to learn belongs only to the individual. Believe it or not, I don't know if teaching them to read was the correct thing to do. It might have been more correct to let them teach themselves. Perhaps I should have facilitated that instead.

2. The idea that certain things are best learned at certain ages makes absolutely no sense to me. Learning is perhaps the most private thing we ever do. Who actually believes they know when another person (especially one we don't know) is 'ready' to learn something?

3. In a public school, what you learn, when you learn it and the pace is determined by someone who has no understanding of where the child is at, internally. And the interests of the child are seldom really considered.

4. The implication behind forced learning and forced participation is that it is ok to force others to do something they might not want to do. The least offensive thing that does is it STEALS the responsibility from the child and, in my mind, the battle is lost right there. After taking the ownership away from the child, why would we expect them to remain interested?

[TheBigDog]

I was wondering what the general concensus is on the state of public education in the US. If you live in another country, please feel free to share your views of your own situation. I have read a number of posts from this site, and others, that speak of what is wrong with our societies, governments, etc. My personal belief is that many things could be improved if education became a priority, not just for politicians but also for parents. What is wrong with public education? What is wrong with the voucher idea? Why is homeschooling wrong, or is it? Who gets to decide what our next generation should know, and by what age, and WHY? What types of sciences should every child have to learn, and why? Should there be a national standard for educational goals in this country?

Also, if this question would be better suited to another topic, please feel free to offer your suggestions.

So I finally resurrected a thread instead of starting a new one. I am slowly learning.

 

I have had an idea forming in my head around the reform of education. I want to give it some air and see if it can breath.

 

In my eyes one of the failings of the education system is that as a profession it pays poorly, and thus does not naturally attac the most talented people who would prefer a lifestyle better than teaching can supply. But with the tax base battles that endlessly happen it becomes tougher and tougher to pay teachers well. Add to that the lack of competition among educational institutions for our kids and you see why they struggle like they do.

 

My idea is to turn the financing of education on its head. I propose an education income tax. It would replace the property taxes typically used to pay the bulk of education today. It would also fund the privitization of the whole educations system. It would work like this...

 

The schools that attended up until high school graduation would be investing in the future of each of the students. They would get paid a share of the education income tax from the students that they taught. If they teach them to be successful, they are rewarded with residuals for the rest of their pupils lives. If they teach them poorly they collect little. As these revenue streams begin to grow the current tax base for schools would be eliminated. People could invest in school systems like they do the stock market for a share of future profits realized by the graduates. If you homeschool your kids then youo would receive the residuals. Private schools would be popping up all over the place, all commpeting for students and providing better educations. There are some economics to be worked out. But I think the priciple has merit.

 

What do you think Hypography?

 

Bill

[IrishEyes]

So I finally resurrected a thread instead of starting a new one. I am slowly learning.

What do you think Hypography?

I think it's an interesting idea that deserves it's very own thread.:)

[Zythryn]

My idea is to turn the financing of education on its head. I propose an education income tax. It would replace the property taxes typically used to pay the bulk of education today. It would also fund the privitization of the whole educations system. It would work like this...

 

I love it!!!

 

There are some ideas to consider and the structure of the payments. We wouldn't want to encourage any person/company to figure that taxes from former students is ok if they jam a huge number of kids through their system.

 

One other thought, how to get from the current system to this one, or how to handle starting up (for the first number of years there would be no income until students made it into the workforce).

 

Perhaps a 'general fund' to assist schools just starting up?

 

Mark

[TheBigDog]

I love it!!!

 

There are some ideas to consider and the structure of the payments. We wouldn't want to encourage any person/company to figure that taxes from former students is ok if they jam a huge number of kids through their system.

 

One other thought, how to get from the current system to this one, or how to handle starting up (for the first number of years there would be no income until students made it into the workforce).

 

Perhaps a 'general fund' to assist schools just starting up?

 

Mark

I would start this by begining with current students. As funds begin to come in from graduates that enter the work force localities would rebate propotionally the funds collected from local current methods of funding education. When the new funds exceed the funds from the current system the current tax methods would be eliminated.

 

This would not solve things overnight, but would have everything pretty much reshaped over the next 30 years. Some food is best when cooked slowly.

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

Agreed!

Whole-heartedly actually. Many 'solutions' that are implimented quickly cause more issues than they resolve.

 

So as to eliminate the 'quantity over quality' issue, perhaps a minimum earnings level for the tax. This would also help people at lower incomes as they would not be paying the tax until they earned a certain amount.

 

Mark

[ldsoftwaresteve]

TheBigDog:

My idea is to turn the financing of education on its head. I propose an education income tax. It would replace the property taxes typically used to pay the bulk of education today. It would also fund the privitization of the whole educations system. It would work like this...

Sorry Pal, I hate this idea. Here are my reasons:

1. Taxes remove the responsibility for learning from the individual and put it on the back of society. It's wrong right there, no need to look further. When you tell children that it's society's responsibility to TEACH them, you indirectly tell them it's not their responsibility to learn.

2. Survival is the responsibility of each person and learning is the single most important act we perform toward that goal. Education does not facilitate learning, in my humble opinion. Not when it's just rote memorization anyway.

3. Because 'society' has taken the responsibility for 'teaching' and literally defined what that means and incorporated that into legislation (specifying the curriculum) it has stolen the inherent values behind the choices of what to learn from the population, specifically, the youth.... and consequently horrendously warped mankind's future.

4. When society identifies the curriculum, the skillsets are carved in stone as though existence were truly understood. The truth is most of what I was taught in school doesn't even apply to me and much of it was basically wrong. But it was given to me as though it were truth. And it was bullshit. So, do you really think that what is being taught today is right? Really?

5. I think the biggest single disaster in the history of the United States was, is, and continues to be 'public education'.

6. If you think that any government entity can actually handle something as important as education, please see the centenial documentary on the wright brothers, ponder the fact that the government has NOT been involved in developing personal computers, consider the absolutely laughable cost of the U.S. Space program as opposed to the butterfly fart cost of Bert Rutans effort. Any time the government leaves its legitimate domain we have nothing but loss, pain, and a drain that cannot be plugged. Not to mention the fact that whatever they get into they need to restrict competition to cover their shameful failures.

 

7. The solution to public education is to destroy it.

[Eclogite]

BigDog,

as an ideal your suggestion has a lot of merit. I see one practical drawback that I'd like your comments on. There may be a way around it, but I can't see it from here.

 

The problem is the time gap. The teachers and school administration that put in the effort to students in their early years are forced to wait decades before they get any significant return.

For example, a student goes through her five to ten year education. She goes on, graduates from high school, goes on to college, does some postgrad work, etc. It is close to two decades before she is earning enough for the education tax to be producing meaningful return.

 

And where is the feedback in that? Have the techniques used been the right ones? Its just too long to wait - rather like steering a car based on directions sent by post to the driver by someone looking through a telescope five miles away.

 

As I say I like the underlying concept - contrary to lssoftwaresteve I think it society had better take responsibility for the education of its members. If they don't they suffer the consequences. (Perhaps Steve, you haven;t heard of enlightened self interest.) However, as a practical concept I fear it is doomed.