The Evolution of Education

[IrishEyes]

yeah so, it seems pointless to have a debate on weather 2+2=4, right?history is a good example of a class that requires both the teaching of undisputed fact and discussion of other possibilities. language,physics, chem, bio, astronomy, etc.. are things that have "one way",soyour problem is the lack of classes like philosphy and religion and so on?

 

Ok, I guess I need to stop my sarcasm, as it is lost here anyway. 2+2=4 is very basic, but I can still remember the frustration of getting the 'right' answer in geometry but getting the question marked 'wrong' because my teacher said the method I used was not the standard accepted method. HUH? That took me years to put in proper perspective.

 

And no, my 'problem' is not the lack of religious classes, or philosophy classes. I don't think religion should be taught in school, but should instead be taught by parents, if they choose. Don't even get me started on 'philosophy'. And as for the others you mentioned (language,physics, chem, bio, astronomy, etc.. )... I TOTALLY disagree that they all have ONE way. The advances in science in the last 200 years would not have been possible without people challenging the 'one accepted way' mentality. That's part of my argument. If classes are taught as 'this is the only way this can be done', instead of teaching critical thinking skills, how will our society ever advance?

 

Geez, i sound more like you, Freethinker! LMAO!

[rileyj]

"but I can still remember the frustration of getting the 'right' answer in geometry but getting the question marked 'wrong' because my teacher said the method I used was not the standard accepted method. HUH?"

 

if i saw a paper with the right answer and a wrong method used to solve it, how do i know your not cheating? i guess you should take that chance. then you would have poeple getting a grade they didn't earn. hey sorry that your teacher made you show how you solved the problem and THOUGHT your way to the right conclusion in the right way.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Freethinker, your child's program sounds awesome! That's basically what I am doing with my children, but on a smaller scale.

 

It WAS a FANTASTIC program. But perhaps you were not involved during the OBE battles of the early '80's? The Public Education system was trying to implement this program, but was stopped at every turn by, guess who?

Kjos Ministry

"The Nazi Model For Outcome-Based Education

...If the sleeping public doesn't wake up and resist soon, it will surely be too late to stop the rising tide of deception that threatens to engulf our children. If so, God's people will once again have demonstrated the blinding consequences of spurning truth and loving lies."

http://www.crossroad.to/text/articles/tnmfobe1196.html

 

Liberty University

Jerry Falwell, Founder and Chancellor

Identifying the Dangers of Outcome-Based Education

" Let me make it very clear, outcome-based-education, as we know it today, is nothing less than the promotion of socialism. "

http://www.liberty.edu/chancellor/nlj/April1999/education4.htm

 

Faith Christian Ministries is sponsored by and affiliated with Faith Lutheran Church,

Outcome-Based Education

"The prophet Hosea warned, My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge because thou has rejected knowledge,...Total transformation: Educational reform through OBE (Greek teacher and philosopher) is a major part of a sweeping Orwellian plan to radically restructure all of American society along revolutionary, socialist lines from top to bottom...Parents will be drawn into OBE through mandatory "parent training" classes and a "life long learning" program that will require continuous retraining and recertification for every job. "

http://www.faithchristianmin.org/articles/obe.htm

 

Yep once more the Fundamentalist Christians are trying to stop the advancement of society.

 

So once more, a very valuable effort has been tossed into the junk heap because Fundies protested too loudly for SECULAR bodies to want to fight.

[rileyj]

language - show me a different way to spell ,car, teclado, raisonnable. only one way different slang yes, hello, hi , hey etc.. only one hi or hello. get it?

physics - F=ma right?

chem - H20 will always make water

bio - i don't think the human body is going to change in my life time

astronomy - there are reasons why planets orbit suns and only one reason.

 

theses are just short examples. for the sake of argument, lets say years from now they all change things we know now are viewed as idiotic. don't you think that the poeple that make those great changes first have great knowledge of the current info to be able to change it?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: rileyjwhere do you think public schools get money hmmm? taxes maybe.who pays taxes hmm? people that live and work in the area. more schools,staff, etc.. means more jobs to offer - means more people working in area - means more paying taxes and less getting welfare, so yeah i do think so

 

You obvious have no concept of the reality of taxes and the economy. It's that simple. It really is.

[IrishEyes]

[Q It WAS a FANTASTIC program. But perhaps you were not involved during the OBE battles of the early '80's? The Public Education system was trying to implement this program, but was stopped at every turn by, guess who?

 

No, I honestly was not interested in the battles of public education during the early 80's, I'm ashamed to say. But it doesn't surprise me that it frightened people. I fight this battle regularly with a local Christian homeschooling group. There are a LOT of people that don't understand my methods. And I get all sorts of flak to use common standard cric's (A Beka, and Sonlight being the most common here). But I stick to my 'guns' and let my children's knowledge speak for itself. While other kids can name all 50 states and capitals, my kids can tell you why each state was brought into the union, and what the benefits and detractors were for both the state and the union for each admission. Are my kids smarter? I doubt it. They've just been taught that it's more important to question and find answers than it is to memorize a list and be able to recite it in a song.

 

if i saw a paper with the right answer and a wrong method used to solve it, how do i know your not cheating? i guess you should take that chance. then you would have poeple getting a grade they didn't earn. hey sorry that your teacher made you show how you solved the problem and THOUGHT your way to the right conclusion in the right way.

 

if, as in that geometry class, you were required to show your work, then the thought of cheating would not have been a factor. The teacher was very specific that while I may have gotten to the correct answer, and my formula did appear to work in all tested instances, as it was not the way being taught (it dropped about 4 of her 'steps'), it was therefore not the correct way, and must be wrong. I carried the erroneous conclusion of not being a math person with me for longer than that teacher should have been allowed to teach!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

People, including children, are NOT taught to think and reason on their own. They are taught to memorize a pre-set list of facts, regurgitate it for a standardizes exam, dump that info, and move on to the next block.

 

Ya know, if I didn't know better. I would think you were not a Fundy.

 

I had been involved for many years with people that have tried to get Critical Thinking based education into schools. (such as OCCTI- Ohio Center for Critical Thinking Instruction) Been active in many philosophy of logic mailing lists (such as phil-L which is where the book recommendation came from) and such. And EVERY SINGLE OBJECTION sited by these groups came from CHRISTIAN groups. Specific examples such as the Prof that got a local Public HS to institute a CT course. It was actively supported by the general community, including a prominent religious figure. Till his kids came home one day and applied CT to his theological claims.. then guess what? The class was shut down a few weeks later.

 

Just as you will find with virtually every group that is AGAINST OBE, CT is strongly opposed by the Religious community. Lest their kids also realize that hearing "The proofs I have may not be good enough for you" means that their folks LACK any proof for their beliefs.

 

Math is a prime example, as everyone knows there is only ONE correct way to solve any given math problem, right?

 

Nor according to religious authority and the bible.

[IrishEyes]

Just as you will find with virtually every group that is AGAINST OBE, CT is strongly opposed by the Religious community. Lest their kids also realize that hearing "The proofs I have may not be good enough for you" means that their folks LACK any proof for their beliefs.

 

I agree with you on this one. My children have been taught to question everything, including what their parents believe about God. I will not tolerate them being forced into a blind belief in religious idealogies any more than I tolerate the accepted standardized methods for teaching any other subject.

 

Of course, this again goes against the grain for some of my Christian friends and associates, but these are MY children, and I have to do what I think is right. But by the same token, my children will still be required to show the proper respect for my beliefs, even if they don't agree with them. I don't feel that you should denegrate another person for having a different belief system.

 

However, i don't think that the only people that are close-minded are Christians (though I might agree that they are the best organized and the most vocal). If an idea is thought to be a 'socialist' idea, that will automatically raise people's suspicions, and most people will fight it on principle (after all, we're a democracy, not a bunch of nazi-soicalists, right!?) The loudest opponents will usually be the best funded, and that generally means a religious backing of some sort.

 

the same argument goes along with the other thread about RFIDs. YOU are opposed to the government collecting that info, and consider it a violation of your privacy. I am also opposed for the same reasons. However, i can tell my pastor about it, and he can relate it to the Bible's prophecy of 'the mark of the beast' and cause a public outcry. Now, we (IrishEyes and Freethinker) both share the same view (that it should not be allowed) for the same basic reasons (a gross violation of privacy), but my views will likely be more touted in the media as they are more sensationalistic (with the attached religious dogma of Armageddon). So, we agree, but my view is heard. Does that make my view wrong because it's being touted as religious? When it's the same as your view, but just portrayed differently by the media?

 

I think this may be part of the problem with Christians attacking things they don't understand. Others probably attack also, but don't have the name recognition of Falwell, and so don't get nesrly as much media attention. The school teacher I mentioned earlier is not a Christian. She was still ridiculed for her 'outlandish' methods (that were actually shown to her by me), and the department head doing the reprimanding was an agnostic, not a Christain. I think it's just close-mindedness in general, and not enough critical thinking in particular. People are lazy and would rather be spoon-fed their info, as well as told what to think.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Geez, i sound more like you, Freethinker! LMAO!

 

That's WAY too scary!

[IrishEyes]

theses are just short examples. for the sake of argument, lets say years from now they all change things we know now are viewed as idiotic. don't you think that the poeple that make those great changes first have great knowledge of the current info to be able to change it?

 

You know, I think that in order to make leaps in science, or any other field, you sometimes have to throw out everything you have been taught and approach a problem from a totally new perspective. Yes, sometimes advances are made by building on prior knowledge. But NOT EVERY TIME!! That's my point. Without critical thinking skills, who would analyze a problem and search for a way to fix it? Heck, who would even recognize it as a problem? And I fully expect most of today's beliefs to be proven wrong in the future. That's what time, science, and technology should do - stretch the limits of belief and understanding beyond the currently accepted bounds and restrictions promoted by limiting free thought. Teach our young people to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and see what will happen!!

[IrishEyes]

Ya know, if I didn't know better. I would think you were not a Fundy.

 

Uh, watch it there, Freethinker...that sounded very close to a compliment from you!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

And I fully expect most of today's beliefs to be proven wrong in the future. That's what time, science, and technology should do -

 

Ah yes postmodernism. Science is always wrong. Always changing it's views at every turn!

 

But we find that in fact this is NOT THE TRUTH!

 

There has been very little in the last 100 years, and MAJOR scientific concepts for 150+ years that has been changed. Things have been added. Understandings expanded. New feilds added. But little is replaced.

 

The Laws of Thermodynamics are around 150years old. They've been rejected how? They have been expanded in understanding so that now they are applied only to cloased systems. But they are still fully valid.

 

Newtonian Physics is as applicable to day as it was 350+ years ago. It was enhanced by General Relativity 80 years ago. QM goes back to the turn of the last century and is an expansion to the (later...???) GR.

 

There have been any number of propositions, or a few contradicting intitial theories, that get rejected. But none had ever been established as very factual.

 

Cold Fusion is a perfect example. A couple guys claimed they did it. The media was all over it. The headlines all told us that science had a major breakthru! One could claim this as an example of Science later rejected. But it was nothing more than empty claims that never were considered SCIENCE.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

<blockquote>Quote

<hr> Ya know, if I didn't know better. I would think you were not a Fundy. <hr></blockquote>

 

Uh, watch it there, Freethinker...that sounded very close to a compliment from you!

 

 

I'm still having trouble typing after that! :-)

[IrishEyes]

Ah yes postmodernism. Science is always wrong. Always changing it's views at every turn!

 

But we find that in fact this is NOT THE TRUTH!

 

Stop being so defensive. I am agreeing with you here, ok? I did not say, nor mean to imply, that science is always wrong. Nor did I say or mean that it changes it's views at every turn. If you would have kept reading the sentence, you'd have noticed "stretch the limits of belief and understanding beyond the currently accepted bounds and restrictions promoted by limiting free thought."

 

Why would you try to turn that into a negative thing? It's not bad to improve upon an idea. I understand that there are many theories that have been around even longer than you! (JOKE, JOKE) What I'm trying to get across in THIS thread is that it is a serious injustice to our children to deny them the opportunity to learn to THINK, to accept pre-packaged ideas in stale textbooks, and to not challenge our next generation to question everything! To my children, I say: "Apply the scientific method to God, the speed of light as a constant, and gravity. You don't have the answers? People laugh at you for questioning accepted theory? THAT'S OK!! You have a brain, USE IT! Don't accept someone else's answers if you think they don't understand your questions!"

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyesStop being so defensive. I am agreeing with you here, ok? I did not say, nor mean to imply, that science is always wrong. Nor did I say or mean that it changes it's views at every turn. If you would have kept reading the sentence, you'd have noticed "stretch the limits of belief and understanding beyond the currently accepted bounds and restrictions promoted by limiting free thought."

What you posted RE Science, was:

 

I fully expect most of today's beliefs to be proven wrong in the future.

 

OK, that was not ALWAYS, it was only most.

 

Why would you try to turn that into a negative thing? It's not bad to improve upon an idea.

 

At what point did "to be proven wrong" become "not bad to improve upon"

 

I understand that there are many theories that have been around even longer than you! (JOKE, JOKE)

 

Dirt, Dirt has been aroound longer than me. At least if you are an old earther. :-)

 

What I'm trying to get across in THIS thread is that it is a serious injustice to our children to deny them the opportunity to learn to THINK, to accept pre-packaged ideas in stale textbooks,

 

Such as Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 

and to not challenge our next generation to question everything! To my children, I say: "Apply the scientific method to God,

 

And since the "scientific method" would vigorously reject acceptance of anything that the best we have is "I can't prove my god exists", you would promote that they follow the ONLY logical conclusion the "scientific method" would allow when a total lack of valid proof exists? That the "scientific method" would REQUIRE the rejection of a god myth.

 

People laugh at you for questioning accepted theory?

 

Laugh? If only to be that lucky. When you question the accepted theory of a god's existence in the US, you can not run for office in 8 states. In fact you can not even testify at your own trial in some.

[IrishEyes]

Freethinker,

While I may agree wholeheartedkly with what you are saying, I really don't want to stray into that area with this topic. You gave me a great reading rec, and you have provided some great ideas for me to study the next few years. I know that when my children are all out of the home, my place will be in public education (unless I get to be a Grandma first!). I also understand that the only way to make a change for the better has to start with me. So that's my eventual goal with public education, to change it from the inside. Just as I'm an advocate for change in my community, and in my place of worship to my God. Do I believe in evolution (as defined as CHANGE)? You bet your buns I do - I work for it all of the time. I think we can evolve into better than we are now as a race, but somethng has to start that change, and sometimes that 'something' has to be ME.

 

Oh, and sorry if I wasn't clear about my views RE: science changing in the future. I honestly did not mean that it was totally wrong now, or that everything will be proven wrong = science never gets anything right. I was thinking more of theories like 'flat earth' and 'spontaneous generation'. They were accepted in their day, and were later proven wrong. As I suspect Heisenberg will be (just MY opinion). The nature of science is to keep pushing to find more answers, so accepting 'we'll never have the ability' seems to go against the scientific grain to me. It was meant as a 'pro-science' statement, but I can see how you could pick it apart to make it seem negative. Please stop being so critical, and just cut me some slack once in a while. Remember that my brain gives out on me sometimes, especially when I'm trying to answer 11th grade math at the same time I type answers here. I'm not always as careful with my words as I should be, I guess, but you are much more defensive and critical than necessary most of the time.

 

Have a GREAT day!!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyesI know that when my children are all out of the home, my place will be in public education

 

I have a serious ethical problem with this. You had mentioned it before. You are intentionally home schooling your kids because you do not like what they are exposed to in public schools. But at this point you do not want to be a source of change for it.

 

This brings into question what your plans would be AFTER they are out of the system. Why not keep your kids in now and fix it?

 

Your approach reeks of a hidden agenda.